Interesting New DMT research

[Lou Gold]

Psychedelic brew ayahuasca’s profound impact revealed in brain scans

Interesting new research here. I can't comment directly because I have no experience with high-dose DMT. Santo Daime dosage is at a much lower level calculated to facilitate and enhance one's performance from realms of the practical and curative and beyond through disciplined spiritual practice.

[AshvinP]

Psychedelic brew ayahuasca’s profound impact revealed in brain scans

Interesting new research here. I can't comment directly because I have no experience with high-dose DMT. Santo Daime dosage is at a much lower level calculated to facilitate and enhance one's performance from realms of the practical and curative and beyond through disciplined spiritual practice.

Lou,

This is an area where the discplined strengthening and enlivening of logical thinking actually reveals itself as a critical spiritual practice, in a way that is easily seen if we are willing to exert ourselves a little bit. Of course that development is also critical for all other domains of life, but it's easier for people to write off the importance of such inquiries into outer nature because the negative consequences of failing to do so are not so evident at first. But when it comes to the use of psychedelics for inner investigation of soul-spirit worlds, the negative consequences should be readily apparent for anyone who trusts in their own logical reasoning faculty. Unfortunately, it's exactly the people heavily drawn to such substances who have mostly lost that trust.

For now, I will simply point to one of many previous posts on this topic by Cleric, since he is surely more experienced with this area than myself and has already addressed it in great detail. In short, greater access to our imagination should not be an end itself, because that by itself doesn't at all guarantee our comprehension of the imaginal realm and will become positively misleading, with potentially disastrous consequences for our psycho-spiritual organism, if taken too far.

viewtopic.php?p=17163#p17163

It's of utmost importance to understand what it means to bring that under control.

I believe I've given this example before but I'm not sure. We can imagine our soul life as a room where the light of our spirit illuminates a spot on the wall - this is where we encounter perceptions - both sensory and of our own activity. If we metaphorically imagine that we introduce dust or smoke in the room, suddenly the cone of light also becomes perceptible.





In this way we begin to experience vivid imagery which is really the dust particles swirled in the currents of our soul life. Most people in our culture are so glued to the screen of perceptions that these currents are completely subconscious. That's why it's a great shock when we become conscious of aspects of our character in this way.

Almost exclusively, what we behold in a psychedelic state is closely associated with our personal organism of body and soul. When we're probing near the threshold of the physical and life body, we live in the somatic and life processes. These processes are grasped by the intellect through dust forms that it can deal with - variations of sensory perceptions, geometric forms, etc. For example, in the video they speak about moving through tunnels, snake skins, etc. These are all experiences in the etheric body but without the proper organization, all becomes reduced to the lowest common denominator that we can comprehend.

Imagine that we live in animalistic state - we have perceptions which stimulate instinctive behavior. Now imagine that some kind of psychedelic substance makes it possible to become aware of thinking in words. Yet the 'wavelength' of our animal cognition can't yet grasp the meaning of the thoughts. Instead we become flooded with auditory perceptions of the inner voice. We experience incredible sounds that feel like coming from deeper reality but none of the meaning.

We're in a similar situation with psychedelics in our age. We become aware of deeper currents of reality but enjoy them only in their sensory-like precipitations. In this sense it would be a grave error to imagine that spiritual development amounts to taking control of the visions while they remain as incomprehensible as ever. This would be as if the animal learns somehow to control the thinking sounds but without any clue that there could be higher order curvature of meaning that organizes these sound forms in the first place.

Actually this is quite the case with our science today. All efforts are to better control the flow of sensory life yet through entirely mechanistic rearrangements of perceptions. The idea that the perceptions of the world are really the decohered beyond recognition meaning of the Cosmic Word is blasphemous both for the materialist and the mystic who insists that the highest wisdom is to simply let go of the tapestry of perceptions and only experience it as nebulous mysteriousness.

These are serious things and we should be aware that very powerful forces are at play which steer evolution in different directions. Unless we develop sincere interest in the essential Being of reality, there's great danger of falling into decadence in forms of Cargo Cults. Psychedelics can indeed give a shake for many people (as they did for me) and at least partially awaken them from the materialistic sleep but then we're prowled by the next danger which is the psychedelic state to become the next cargo cult. Just as the indigenous people didn't seek the state of consciousness which would make the airplanes comprehensible but instead were only happy for the cargo, so today trippers don't seek the higher order spiritual activity which weaves in the Cosmos but instead are fascinated by the crates of psychedelic visuals falling from their higher organization to entertain their imaginative senses. Even if we have more respectful attitude, as in shamanism where we're grateful for the crates, and we take them as messages and impetus for work, the fact remains that we have no interest for growing into the higher reality. We either declare the higher reality to be of some instinctive nature, thus it's foolish to imagine one can live consciously there or we postulate some veil that hopefully will be torn after death, while in the meantime it supports the dualism of non-dualism on Earth.

This should be crystal clear to us. Just as no amount of free cargo would give the indigenous people the consciousness of aerospace physics, so in the same sense no amount of psychedelic precipitations of (or even mechanistic control over) symbolic crates, would give us the higher order consciousness which alone can see them in their true light.

[Lou Gold]

Psychedelic brew ayahuasca’s profound impact revealed in brain scans

Interesting new research here. I can't comment directly because I have no experience with high-dose DMT. Santo Daime dosage is at a much lower level calculated to facilitate and enhance one's performance from realms of the practical and curative and beyond through disciplined spiritual practice.

Lou,

This is an area where the discplined strengthening and enlivening of logical thinking actually reveals itself as a critical spiritual practice, in a way that is easily seen if we are willing to exert ourselves a little bit. Of course that development is also critical for all other domains of life, but it's easier for people to write off the importance of such inquiries into outer nature because the negative consequences of failing to do so are not so evident at first. But when it comes to the use of psychedelics for inner investigation of soul-spirit worlds, the negative consequences should be readily apparent for anyone who trusts in their own logical reasoning faculty. Unfortunately, it's exactly the people heavily drawn to such substances who have mostly lost that trust.

For now, I will simply point to one of many previous posts on this topic by Cleric, since he is surely more experienced with this area than myself and has already addressed it in great detail. In short, greater access to our imagination should not be an end itself, because that by itself doesn't at all guarantee our comprehension of the imaginal realm and will become positively misleading, with potentially disastrous consequences for our psycho-spiritual organism, if taken too far.

viewtopic.php?p=17163#p17163

It's of utmost importance to understand what it means to bring that under control.

I believe I've given this example before but I'm not sure. We can imagine our soul life as a room where the light of our spirit illuminates a spot on the wall - this is where we encounter perceptions - both sensory and of our own activity. If we metaphorically imagine that we introduce dust or smoke in the room, suddenly the cone of light also becomes perceptible.





In this way we begin to experience vivid imagery which is really the dust particles swirled in the currents of our soul life. Most people in our culture are so glued to the screen of perceptions that these currents are completely subconscious. That's why it's a great shock when we become conscious of aspects of our character in this way.

Almost exclusively, what we behold in a psychedelic state is closely associated with our personal organism of body and soul. When we're probing near the threshold of the physical and life body, we live in the somatic and life processes. These processes are grasped by the intellect through dust forms that it can deal with - variations of sensory perceptions, geometric forms, etc. For example, in the video they speak about moving through tunnels, snake skins, etc. These are all experiences in the etheric body but without the proper organization, all becomes reduced to the lowest common denominator that we can comprehend.

Imagine that we live in animalistic state - we have perceptions which stimulate instinctive behavior. Now imagine that some kind of psychedelic substance makes it possible to become aware of thinking in words. Yet the 'wavelength' of our animal cognition can't yet grasp the meaning of the thoughts. Instead we become flooded with auditory perceptions of the inner voice. We experience incredible sounds that feel like coming from deeper reality but none of the meaning.

We're in a similar situation with psychedelics in our age. We become aware of deeper currents of reality but enjoy them only in their sensory-like precipitations. In this sense it would be a grave error to imagine that spiritual development amounts to taking control of the visions while they remain as incomprehensible as ever. This would be as if the animal learns somehow to control the thinking sounds but without any clue that there could be higher order curvature of meaning that organizes these sound forms in the first place.

Actually this is quite the case with our science today. All efforts are to better control the flow of sensory life yet through entirely mechanistic rearrangements of perceptions. The idea that the perceptions of the world are really the decohered beyond recognition meaning of the Cosmic Word is blasphemous both for the materialist and the mystic who insists that the highest wisdom is to simply let go of the tapestry of perceptions and only experience it as nebulous mysteriousness.

These are serious things and we should be aware that very powerful forces are at play which steer evolution in different directions. Unless we develop sincere interest in the essential Being of reality, there's great danger of falling into decadence in forms of Cargo Cults. Psychedelics can indeed give a shake for many people (as they did for me) and at least partially awaken them from the materialistic sleep but then we're prowled by the next danger which is the psychedelic state to become the next cargo cult. Just as the indigenous people didn't seek the state of consciousness which would make the airplanes comprehensible but instead were only happy for the cargo, so today trippers don't seek the higher order spiritual activity which weaves in the Cosmos but instead are fascinated by the crates of psychedelic visuals falling from their higher organization to entertain their imaginative senses. Even if we have more respectful attitude, as in shamanism where we're grateful for the crates, and we take them as messages and impetus for work, the fact remains that we have no interest for growing into the higher reality. We either declare the higher reality to be of some instinctive nature, thus it's foolish to imagine one can live consciously there or we postulate some veil that hopefully will be torn after death, while in the meantime it supports the dualism of non-dualism on Earth.

This should be crystal clear to us. Just as no amount of free cargo would give the indigenous people the consciousness of aerospace physics, so in the same sense no amount of psychedelic precipitations of (or even mechanistic control over) symbolic crates, would give us the higher order consciousness which alone can see them in their true light.

I'm sorry for my ignorance. Has Cleric ever posted about his direct experience with spiritually disciplined use of entheogens or have his comments been speculative?

But, yes, I do believe the danger of idolatry lurks along all paths and demands an ever-vigilant awareness.

[AshvinP]

I'm sorry for my ignorance. Has Cleric ever posted about his direct experience with spiritually disciplined use of entheogens or have his comments been speculative?

But, yes, I do believe the danger of idolatry lurks along all paths and demands an ever-vigilant awareness.

I would say practically everything he has written on that topic, or the development of higher cognition in general, is based on his direct experience. I know that it will sound 'speculative' or 'theoretical' to most, but we should ask whether that's perhaps because we are so accustomed to only hearing about these inner spiritual things in a speculative or theoretical manner. Actually that has probably been the greatest source of misunderstanding on this forum when it comes to spiritual science - it is simply assumed that the whole thing is a theoretical model of higher worlds because we can't imagine any other way in which the knowledge would have been attained. And that is understandable, because it is precisely through Imagination and higher faculties that the knowledge is attained. The ceiling of our imagination is the extent to which we ourselves have developed those faculties, although our normal healthy reasoning can certainly discern the overall coherence of the ideas with great confidence, looking from the outside-in.

Notice in the post - "Psychedelics can indeed give a shake for many people (as they did for me) and at least partially awaken them from the materialistic sleep but then we're prowled by the next danger which is the psychedelic state to become the next cargo cult." Of course he could provide more details on his experimentation.

[Lou Gold]

I'm sorry for my ignorance. Has Cleric ever posted about his direct experience with spiritually disciplined use of entheogens or have his comments been speculative?

But, yes, I do believe the danger of idolatry lurks along all paths and demands an ever-vigilant awareness.

I would say practically everything he has written on that topic, or the development of higher cognition in general, is based on his direct experience. I know that it will sound 'speculative' or 'theoretical' to most, but we should ask whether that's perhaps because we are so accustomed to only hearing about these inner spiritual things in a speculative or theoretical manner. Actually that has probably been the greatest source of misunderstanding on this forum when it comes to spiritual science - it is simply assumed that the whole thing is a theoretical model of higher worlds because we can't imagine any other way in which the knowledge would have been attained. And that is understandable, because it is precisely through Imagination and higher faculties that the knowledge is attained. The ceiling of our imagination is the extent to which we ourselves have developed those faculties, although our normal healthy reasoning can certainly discern the overall coherence of the ideas with great confidence, looking from the outside-in.

Notice in the post - "Psychedelics can indeed give a shake for many people (as they did for me) and at least partially awaken them from the materialistic sleep but then we're prowled by the next danger which is the psychedelic state to become the next cargo cult." Of course he could provide more details on his experimentation.

Thanks for the (as they did for me) quote. I do remember it. But Cleric never elaborated whether his familiarity was an experiential sampling as it has been for many or if it moved forward into a disciplined protocol of spiritual inquiry and practice such as Santo Daime. In our previous discussions he only referenced some books by psychonauts like McKenna. Perhaps Cleric will help us with a more detailed description of his direct personal acquaintance with use in a disciplined spiritual practice.

[Cleric K]

I'm sorry for my ignorance. Has Cleric ever posted about his direct experience with spiritually disciplined use of entheogens or have his comments been speculative?

But, yes, I do believe the danger of idolatry lurks along all paths and demands an ever-vigilant awareness.

The comments are based on my own experience. Such things become clear as soon as we understand that the invisible world has to be read and not simply beheld as inexplicable and enchanting picture.

I know that this 'reading' is usually immediately misconceived for intellectual interpretation. To understand how the higher reading is different we can use an analogy borrowed from technology.

We know that various devices which can store and retrieve information, often have a part called the 'head'. For example, head of a hard drive or head of a cassette player and so on. Coincidentally or not, we also have a head and the common understanding is that this head 'reads' the inputs of our perceptions. Devices convert the information in the storage medium into electric impulses, we turn perceptions into meaning in our mind, so to speak.

In the psychedelic or other altered states, our head is infused with unfamiliar stimuli. Yet we still try to read them, we try to fit them in our familiar slots of meaning (concepts). When the stimuli become so bizarre that our head can't grasp anything familiar, to the extend that the head loses the ground under its feet, people usually call this ego death. In fact the ego doesn't die, only our intellectual activity loses grip and the ego simply stops fighting to fit the experience in meaningful concepts.

When this happens, usually the experience attains such a high resolution and fluidity that we're intuitively clear that no patchwork of intellectual concepts can ever capture this infinite richness. This is usually the point where people lose confidence in thinking and see it only as something that may have practical value for sensory life but it utterly butchers the richness of reality. For many people this leads to state where they feel that normal life and its thinking is only a burden that keeps them apart from the infinitely hi-res wonderland and thus seek ways to return there from time to time.

This produces a chasm between the intellectual state and the inexplicable state where the intellect dissolves. Upon returning to intellectual cognition we can of course think about the experience, we can conceptualize it, speculate about its true nature and so on. This is what is normally understood as 'reading' into the experience. And in a way this is correct because that's what almost everyone is doing anyway. If we follow the advent of psychedelics in the 20th century we'll clearly see that nothing new has really been discovered. Certain old wisdom has been revived but the intellect hasn't made even the tiniest step towards deeper understanding of reality. The intellectual head remains confronted with the wall of imagery and reads into it. Yet whatever it does, it still feels that it exists on its own side of reality. This is a very clear fact when we consider that there are many people with lots of psychedelic experiences who nevertheless hold materialistic beliefs (btw I recently found out that James Cameron is actually quite experienced too, yet you can see from this interview that to him the physical world still feels as the ground of reality. More specifically after 23:20).

To grasp the kind of reading we have to deal with, we can extend the analogy by saying that the head itself must change its configuration. It must transform in order to be able to read the novel 'wavelengths' of the medium into corresponding meaning. Please note the difference - not squeezing the higher experiences and reducing/explaining them away through the characteristic slots of our present head but evolve our head to make it compatible with the higher order wavelengths. This meaning can have very different 'geometry' and can grasp in clear cognition even the states where ordinary thinking dissolves. So ordinary thinking indeed dissolves but we keep something of the meaningful currents in the head and evolve them into resonance with the otherwise infinitely rich and inexplicable environment. Then we begin to understand that this whole environment is structured along higher order Thoughts, which no longer resemble simple words in the head but actual lines of intentional force that meaningfully weave the structure of reality. We don't grasp these Thoughts by intellectually interpreting the wiggling of our environment but our head itself must transform in order to become resonant (self-similar) to the higher Thoughts.

That's the reason why in order to penetrate reality we can't allow ourselves to 'lose our head'. Instead, our head has to transform, just like a head of a device must be transformed if it is to read new kinds of mediums. Later our whole body becomes a head. We read the meaningful curvatures of reality with our whole being. The analogy can go even further when we consider that the head not only reads but also writes and modifies the environment but let's leave that for another time. This meaningful reading/writing activity can only grow from the seed of concentrated intellectual thought. If we ignore the currents of meaning in our normal head, which read and write reality, we'll search in vain for them elsewhere. No matter how 'one' we feel with our environment, it will remain inexplicable language to us, even if we sensually merge with its incomprehensible sounds.

[Lou Gold]

I'm sorry for my ignorance. Has Cleric ever posted about his direct experience with spiritually disciplined use of entheogens or have his comments been speculative?

But, yes, I do believe the danger of idolatry lurks along all paths and demands an ever-vigilant awareness.

The comments are based on my own experience. Such things become clear as soon as we understand that the invisible world has to be read and not simply beheld as inexplicable and enchanting picture.

I know that this 'reading' is usually immediately misconceived for intellectual interpretation. To understand how the higher reading is different we can use an analogy borrowed from technology.

We know that various devices which can store and retrieve information, often have a part called the 'head'. For example, head of a hard drive or head of a cassette player and so on. Coincidentally or not, we also have a head and the common understanding is that this head 'reads' the inputs of our perceptions. Devices convert the information in the storage medium into electric impulses, we turn perceptions into meaning in our mind, so to speak.

In the psychedelic or other altered states, our head is infused with unfamiliar stimuli. Yet we still try to read them, we try to fit them in our familiar slots of meaning (concepts). When the stimuli become so bizarre that our head can't grasp anything familiar, to the extend that the head loses the ground under its feet, people usually call this ego death. In fact the ego doesn't die, only our intellectual activity loses grip and the ego simply stops fighting to fit the experience in meaningful concepts.

When this happens, usually the experience attains such a high resolution and fluidity that we're intuitively clear that no patchwork of intellectual concepts can ever capture this infinite richness. This is usually the point where people lose confidence in thinking and see it only as something that may have practical value for sensory life but it utterly butchers the richness of reality. For many people this leads to state where they feel that normal life and its thinking is only a burden that keeps them apart from the infinitely hi-res wonderland and thus seek ways to return there from time to time.

This produces a chasm between the intellectual state and the inexplicable state where the intellect dissolves. Upon returning to intellectual cognition we can of course think about the experience, we can conceptualize it, speculate about its true nature and so on. This is what is normally understood as 'reading' into the experience. And in a way this is correct because that's what almost everyone is doing anyway. If we follow the advent of psychedelics in the 20th century we'll clearly see that nothing new has really been discovered. Certain old wisdom has been revived but the intellect hasn't made even the tiniest step towards deeper understanding of reality. The intellectual head remains confronted with the wall of imagery and reads into it. Yet whatever it does, it still feels that it exists on its own side of reality. This is a very clear fact when we consider that there are many people with lots of psychedelic experiences who nevertheless hold materialistic beliefs (btw I recently found out that James Cameron is actually quite experienced too, yet you can see from this interview that to him the physical world still feels as the ground of reality. More specifically after 23:20).

To grasp the kind of reading we have to deal with, we can extend the analogy by saying that the head itself must change its configuration. It must transform in order to be able to read the novel 'wavelengths' of the medium into corresponding meaning. Please note the difference - not squeezing the higher experiences and reducing/explaining them away through the characteristic slots of our present head but evolve our head to make it compatible with the higher order wavelengths. This meaning can have very different 'geometry' and can grasp in clear cognition even the states where ordinary thinking dissolves. So ordinary thinking indeed dissolves but we keep something of the meaningful currents in the head and evolve them into resonance with the otherwise infinitely rich and inexplicable environment. Then we begin to understand that this whole environment is structured along higher order Thoughts, which no longer resemble simple words in the head but actual lines of intentional force that meaningfully weave the structure of reality. We don't grasp these Thoughts by intellectually interpreting the wiggling of our environment but our head itself must transform in order to become resonant (self-similar) to the higher Thoughts.

That's the reason why in order to penetrate reality we can't allow ourselves to 'lose our head'. Instead, our head has to transform, just like a head of a device must be transformed if it is to read new kinds of mediums. Later our whole body becomes a head. We read the meaningful curvatures of reality with our whole being. The analogy can go even further when we consider that the head not only reads but also writes and modifies the environment but let's leave that for another time. This meaningful reading/writing activity can only grow from the seed of concentrated intellectual thought. If we ignore the currents of meaning in our normal head, which read and write reality, we'll search in vain for them elsewhere. No matter how 'one' we feel with our environment, it will remain inexplicable language to us, even if we sensually merge with its incomprehensible sounds.

Aloha Cleric,

You say, The comments are based on my own experience. Such things become clear as soon as we understand that the invisible world has to be read and not simply beheld as inexplicable and enchanting picture.

I ask simply "Have you personally engaged in a disciplined spiritual practice such as Santo Daime?"

I don't comment on another person's process. I'm only trying to clarify what personal experiential ground you are speaking from?

I don't doubt that one might use psychedelics and still be a materialist as you report about Cameron and with whom I'm not familiar. I do know users of Santo Daime across a very wide spectrum of philosophical positions, with a range of primary serious spiritual practices and with professional roles of high responsibility who report that usage has enhanced their real-time performance in the here-and-now. It surely has enhanced mine and I count it as a highly significant reason that I'm still alive. Yet, despite its tremendously valuable gift in my life, advocacy of the practice for others is prohibited by the protocol and I agree.

So, once again, I beg you to state beyond "I know from personal experience" the nature and extent of that experience.

[Federica]

I don't comment on another person's process. I'm only trying to clarify what personal experiential ground you are speaking from?

And what difference would that make what is the justification for this curiosity?

[Lou Gold]

I don't comment on another person's process. I'm only trying to clarify what personal experiential ground you are speaking from?

And what difference would that make what is the justification for this curiosity?

Whenever someone says something judgemental of another path or spiritual way, I wonder about the personal experience that contributes to this view. It is surely ok to hold a belief structure. When Thich Nhat Hanh was asked about spirits, he simply said, "we don't believe in them" and did not (to my knowledge) offer criticism of the Mahayana approach, which employs a much richer imaginal palette. My curiosity in the case of Cleric is stimulated by a strong tone of judging other ways as higher or lower or whatever. I get a strong sense of evangelism, especially with Ashvin. All "grist for the mill" I guess.

[Federica]

I don't comment on another person's process. I'm only trying to clarify what personal experiential ground you are speaking from?

And what difference would that make what is the justification for this curiosity?

Whenever someone says something judgemental of another path or spiritual way, I wonder about the personal experience that contributes to this view. It is surely ok to hold a belief structure. When Thich Nhat Hanh was asked about spirits, he simply said, "we don't believe in them" and did not (to my knowledge) offer criticism of the Mahayana approach, which employs a much richer imaginal palette. My curiosity in the case of Cleric is stimulated by a strong tone of judging other ways as higher or lower or whatever. I get a strong sense of evangelism, especially with Ashvin. All "grist for the mill" I guess.

It must be a very particular use of "whenever" you make here, because when I, for instance, judged your spiritual path, you didn't inquire about the personal experience that contributes to that view. Nor I remember that you did that with Ashvin, at least since I've been a member of this forum. But now for some reason you become unusually inquisitive. So what is the reason?