Massimo Scaligero

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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AshvinP wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 7:39 pm Federica,

I also don't really understand it experientially, in terms of practicing the technique, and it seems like a rather advanced technique to me. It may be a bit risky to let ourselves submerge into our lower impulses in that way and is probably something we should only work up to gradually. I think we have some experience with the principle underlying it, however, insofar as we have experienced tragedy or illness that floors us to some extent but also gives us the opportunity to rise back up like a Phoenix from the ashes with newly discovered insights, qualities, and/or capacities. It could be something as simple as a bad cold or flu which cripples our I-activity and humbles us in a certain way, since we experience how feeble we are in the face of mysterious forces. Yet we also experience how life has a way of bringing us back from the abyss with a new strength of will and purpose. On the esoteric path, we simply aim to make this process more conscious and thereby experience how it also unfolds for our essential individuality across the threshold i.e. across incarnations, or in the other direction for more 'trivial' experiences where we often miss the rhythm, and that also allows us to take it in hand and participate in the process more actively.

"But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, and much patience, in afflictions, and necessities, and distresses, and stripes, and imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things." (2 Corinthians 6)

Yes, you speak of a sort of karmically enforced inner judo. I definitely know that principle experientially - being humbled by events that demonstrate how much the good things we usually consider the effect of our efforts, goodwill and qualities are actually first and foremost made possible by mysterious forces that we are so quick to leave out of the equation in our judgments.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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In order to keep the discussion aligned with the announced topic, this thread has been split. The latest posts are found in Symbolic thinking, Anthroposophy and Transhumanism.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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Reporting another lecture [1] by Scaligero, in form of questions and answers. Main topics:

- Nature of Mars
- Black magic
- The tradition of the Bodhisattva Maitreya
- The difficulty of living up to true love
- Liberating thinking from Lucifer
- The task of educating thinking at a young age
- Illness and healing
- Freedom and Love


Rome, March 18, 1978


Dear Massimo, do those American space probes on Mars possibly disprove what our Doctor says regarding the non solid nature of Mars? Thank you.
Who says that they disprove it? They don’t, because our Doctor does not say that Mars is not mineral. Everything that shines as a heavenly body, shines because there is a mineral element, otherwise it would not be visible. So the Ahrimanic level is there, it’s fully there. It’s a physical state that simply has not yet reached full solid state. Seemingly, it is said that when our Earth was traversing such a state, that is during the Lemurian age, The Earth was inhabited by monstrous beings, who didn’t have solid bone structure. They had cartilage - not that they appeared less terrible for this reason. So it’s a liquid state - a state that can reach up to viscous density. So we can understand that the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled. So our Doctor says that Mars now is in the state the Earth was in during the Lemurian epoch. So there is no contradiction, when we carefully read what he really says. I believe there is not much else to add to this.

Now let’s start with the strange questions: “According to the law of the entities...” what entities? …social security entities? “According to the law of entities, by opposing the flow of becoming, a vortex is created that ends up discharging onto someone. By following the exercises suggested by the Master of the new times, does one fall under the rule of this law, or does one overcome it?
Yes, yes, I understand now what this question refers to. But this is a matter of… It’s about the law of entities discussed in "Ur" [an Italian esoteric journal], I get it. So, the contention of this law is that whoever operates ritually or magically in a way that willfully impinges on the course of certain cosmic laws, and cosmic forces, will obtain certain results. However, he also disturbs those forces, he compels them to a halt with regards to his persona. As a consequence, the forces would discharge themselves violently onto beings who are connected to this operator. In this way, the operator is saved, he pushes away certain effects of certain occult forces, while the connected beings suffer from them, as the occult forces are released on the weakest ones among those who are connected with the operator.

There is some truth in this idea, however… It has to do with very egoistic forms of magic, spoken of by our Doctor in the Fifth Gospel, where he remarks that Christ, before His 33rd year of age, was learning the Middle-Eastern initiatic world, that is, the Essenes. The Essenes were strongly appealed by Jesus of Nazareth. Because of this admiration they felt, they wanted to have Him among them. But Jesus was independent, and more than once He discovered that the Essenes indeed were in good standing with their rituals and ceremonies, but they used to operate in such a way as to chase the demons away from them and those demons were so pushed onto others. In other words, they were not winning over the demons, dominating them, and making them abide by higher spiritual laws. They were simply getting rid of them, without concerning themselves with the consequences, that is, the demons were haunting the weakest. This can happen today as well, if one follows an egoistic spiritual path, if one has connected with certain currents that cultivate an illegitimate occultism, where one can achieve a certain mastery over certain entities. However it is a mastery of a dubious nature, since it corrupts the forces. Any form of self-affirmation can’t but be egoistic, and so the reactions of these entities hit the weakest connections of those operators. Our friend asks: “Is the path of the Master of the new times, the path of Steiner?” Yes, of course, but following this path doesn't really protect us from anything. One needs to follow it for real, and it’s a brave path. It can be said that it represents a continuous challenge to the adversarial forces. If not a continuous rebellion, it puts a stop to the submission to spiritual entities who for millennia have been used to dominate man. Modern man, the self-conscious man, is starting to withdraw from that, as he develops self consciousness.

Still, the situation is somewhat enmeshed. For man to be able to eschew that influence without negative consequences, he should be aware of the behind-the-scenes of this story, he should be aware of these adversarial forces. He should know the true story of the Buddha, the true story of the Bodhisattva. Because whoever knows the tradition of the Bodhisattva and is determined to go to the bottom of things, will not rest until he understands how the Bodhisattva Maitreya operates. The tradition is very precise and very clear: the Maitreya Bodhisattva is continually reincarnating - we can say he reincarnates in every century. So it’s important to understand how this happens. When the spiritual seeker understands that, he knows well that, in the times of the consciousness soul - our times - there is a Master whose function is to really offer the consciousness soul an opportunity to withdraw from the formerly rightful forces, that today have become wrongful, since man has acquired absolute independence from the angelic sphere, the etheric sphere. In the past, the etheric sphere which dominated human thinking did not allow for the free human being. Rather, man had the continuous opportunity to intuit the gods’ will.

This has continued until the Romans, who called the gods’ will fatum. Fatum, from for, faris, which means “to say”. Therefore, fatum is the saying of the gods. The Romans were listening to it, and they were the last ones able to listen to it. So much so that whoever really knows Roman history can understand that the Romans defeated their enemies ‘mathematically’, because they prepared their rites before the battle. There’s been a battle - now I don’t remember which one - when the enemies, probably Germanic, had already started to invade the battlefield with arrows, while the Romans hadn’t yet completed their rituals. The Romans let themselves get hit at first, everything not to interrupt the rite. Once the rite was finally completed, they attacked, and they defeated the enemy. They were really connected with the gods. However, this started to decline after the period of the Republic, with the beginning of the Roman Empire. But we can't digress too much on that. As we were saying, it’s necessary to know the behind-the-scenes. In any case, we can see a clear direction, and the tradition of the Bodhisattva is accessible to anyone. It’s not necessary to know spiritual science in order to find orientation, and tirelessly search until the Bodhisattva Maitreya is found. From that point, understanding becomes possible.

Here it is also possible to refer to the Michael-being, who is the only spiritual being, the only spiritual entity - hence the law of entities - who can have connection with the free human being, that is, man who has emancipated himself from the divine order. The problem is, where has man emancipated himself? He has done that only in a certain area of the head. Elsewhere in him, the old gods continue to operate. But they operate without taking into account this transmutation in man. So this flowing of the forces of the ancient gods has a negative issue, because higher forces becomes instinctive powers, because at this point the relationship can only be controlled by an independent man, if he can establish a relationship with the entity appointed with the divine task, the cosmic task of accompanying the free man, the liberated man, the atheist man, the materialistic man. So much so that the Michael entity is represented as an entity who does not impose any direction, but silently indicates the direction of the man of the new times, which is the way of thinking. Therefore, it depends on man whether the forces that used to flow to him from the Cosmos, will continue to flow without being spoiled, because the damage has already begun. Ignorance of the way of Paraclete-thinking - which means thinking of the new times - puts man in danger, despite the fact that there has been a Being who gave everything for man to understand this question.

Now let’s connect this with this new question: “What dangers does one face by attending ceremonies of ritual magic, or rites of abjuration of the sacrament of baptism?
You see, now we have reasoned in a way that seems to give a certain credit to these illegitimate currents, but the truth is, these people who practice ritual magic and so on… look… really, they are poor souls. Like the spiritists, they trade with forces they know nothing about. They believe they are performing rituals…. It’s a terribly naive and grotesque world. This does not mean that it’s not dangerous. They are like kids handling dynamite, without knowing it is dynamite. Now, it does happen that baptism is abjured through a ritual. But this is ridiculous, because the free human being does not need to abjure anything. He can have an inner stance of repugnance towards his baptism and he could say to himself “it’s as if I hadn’t had it”. That would be a slightly more courageous stance. Because whoever undergoes a ritual to abjure the sacrament of baptism really is a poor soul, if he thinks he can liberate himself from baptism - in which he didn’t participate - through an external ritual. There is really nothing enviable in such a naive attitude. That a young person is that naive, that a kid does ceremonies of that sort, in the spirit of experiment, I can forgive, if reason is restored at the 21 years of age. But when an adult does that, it really means the person is leaning towards… how can I say it… towards a somewhat psychopathological condition. In short, don't worry.

[Reading a question] “Love for another person has to mean a commitment to love everything in them, transforming the heart into a power station of love - It’s a difficult endeavor, so difficult that one is tempted to give up.
Well, we follow the way of freedom. It means that we are free, including free to give up. In certain situations one is more free in surrender. Nonetheless, if one really is free, surrender is short-lived. One comes back to love, because freedom and love are the same impulse. Freedom is the act of the I. The I is a radiant force who does not need to refer to love in order to radiate onto itself, therefore the question is very simple: it’s necessary to be free. If one becomes liberated from all sorts of emotional or instinctual strangleholds, then the question of loving another being becomes clearer. With that new limpid vision, one can get back to the task of true love, not the parody of love. The love that we speak of, with reference to the theme of the Grail, is not yet in existence. But those who are capable of the supersensible experience of thinking can walk in that direction.

I have many questions here, and I am not sure we can make it. Those of you who are awaiting their answer, please don’t take offense if your question is not treated during the course of the hour. [Reading] “Now that the I descends into the human level, it is necessary to bring back to sleep that part or the astral body prematurely [------]ed by Lucifer, so that the crucial order can be brought to the etheric realm. How to find the strength for that?
Here we have to remember that originally Lucifer was the active one. The sentient soul of man appeared in the middle of the Lemurian epoch, while Ahriman appeared in much later times. However, we need to understand that Christ incarnated in the physical sphere exactly because the biggest evil at that time was active in the physical sphere, thus it was necessary to defeat it on that level. So, first came Lucifer. From the viewpoint of spiritual culture, Lucifer is at the foundation of all ancient mysteries. With the exception of the Solar Mysteries of the Christ that have passed through India and Egypt, and have all a Christic character, all the other mysteries have a lunar, Luciferic character. Not that they were following Lucifer, but the Masters themselves were Luciferic. Let’s remember that the Luciferic entities appeared as superhumans. Those beings were superior to man and they helped humanity. Then the sphere of Ahriman appeared much later, to gain considerable strength during the Greco-Roman epoch.

We have also mentioned that, in the Eastern world, those who knew the secrets of human evolution, were dreading the upcoming Ahrimanic times and did all they could to escape them, to make things happen before the advent of Ahriman, who was clearly expected. The Kali-Yuga is indeed described in incredibly realistic form, in alignment with what later really happened, in the Ahrimanic epoch. Knowing this terrible phase to come in the history of humanity, they had been preparing the incarnation of the solar Logos for millennia - the force that destroys Ahriman. This is the reason why this force had to manifest within the sensory sphere, so as to ground the victory over Ahriman all the way down into the physical. Then there was a time when the two became allies. This alliance is actually still current. They are adversaries, but one needs the other. Ahriman operated during the day and Lucifer during the night. But a time will come when the Ahrimanic forces will be left with very little power on humanity. Then, a new Luciferic cycle will begin, in which Lucifer will acquire the operative power of an external deity. But this too has been anticipated. In the same way that Christ incarnated in the physical plane to defeat Ahriman, He operates on the etheric plane, as etheric Christ, in order to defeat Lucifer. This too is currently happening. Lucifer will fight, he will soon start to attack, and the victory over him is gained through the liberation of thinking and the recovery of the etheric realm. This means either an encounter with the etheric Christ - for the most evolved beings - or the victory over Lucifer through the higher ether of thinking.

Here, with reference to other questions I have noticed, we have to say: the path of thinking has to be understood as the way of the future. We are now preparing the future structure of the human brain. We can say that thinking, when it is true thinking, sort of bores channels, or ways, inside the cerebral organ, in which it prepares its manifestation. I've said “when it is true thinking” because usually this is not the case. Through these channels, or excavations, through this preparation of the brain, the essential force, the Logos force of thinking prepares its own manifestation. This, however, does not happen by itself. Man has to decide it. But the force is there, it’s at our disposal. We continually think, and the force is ready. But we have to understand that, we have to activate this power and open those channels. But, once this operation is initiated, it can’t be paused. If this intense work is suspended, even shortly, the Luciferic and Ahrimanic currents immediately take advantage of the opened channels and enter the head. This explains the betrayals. Not the betrayal of Judas, but the one of Cagliostro, and the betrayal of the one who caused our Doctor’s plans to fail. All possible betrayals today, among those who follow the true path of the Spirit, can be understood as realization of what I have often pointed to, interpreting the word of Christ about demons. As He says, there are demons who, chased away from a being through divine help, start rambling, unable to find a new dwelling place. Then they realize that the being has purified himself, has cleaned up the space very well, and so they are eager to come back and occupy the newly refreshed space. So at the least opportunity they enter it, and dominate the person more than ever before. In this way, the one who had been exorcized and liberated is indemonised three times stronger. The serious seekers on the path sense this risk very well, because there is nothing worse than an awakened inner substance that is later recaptured by instincts. Through the adversarial forces, those instincts become incredibly powerful. Yes, the path is difficult, nevertheless it is the true path. Not like the path of... the law of entities... Those are good people but, well, they really have a lot to learn.

So… thinking is the key, because the Logos-forces of thinking start their action already in childhood. During the first three years of life, the forces must be allowed to work. They know how to operate, independent of the child. Therefore it is critical that the parents, or the educators, allow for this process to orderly take place without perturbations, troubles or damages. It’s a very critical task. Later, as conscious thinking progressively emerges, this formative work of the cerebral organ goes on. Then the period between 14 and 21 years of age is a dangerous one, because the young person is defenseless in the face of impressions, sensations he might receive, and when instincts are triggered. One can say that these impulses affect the formative forces of the brain, and the brain can be damaged. So the organ that will later reflect our thinking - because the thinking by which we think is the reflection created by our physical brain - is damaged. Therefore the education of thinking for young people is of paramount importance. It has to allow for the cerebral organ to develop according to the laws of Spirit. Despite any possibly adverse karmic forces, this work will be a fantastic help from the 21st year on, because there will always be adversarial elements in the external world to challenge that educational work. That's why it’s so important to take care of our youth, and help them, until the 21st year of age. After the age of 21, let them do as they please.

Usually it happens that thinking does not take that course, unfortunately. The normal course of development would be that the forces of thinking are activated in a way that progressively opens that arc within the brain, so that, one day, the brain will naturally and effortlessly respond to the continuous darkening attempts on thinking. Unfortunately it’s very common that the opposite happens, that the world of instincts expresses itself through thinking, which blocks the influx of the Logos-forces of thinking. Whenever this force does not find those opened channels, it ends up in the instinctual sphere. Hence the damage we have earlier discussed, in terms of magic. These instinctual forces can indeed be terrible, but they don’t belong to the I of the one who is operating.

So we are in trouble if knowledge is missing, if we don’t understand that true knowledge comes from an honest line of conduct. Whoever poses as master, but cuts the quotes, manipulates the texts and the students, is dishonest. When we have discovered that, we have started to say no to these people. The mark of the true spiritual teacher is the most absolute honesty and fairness, an intention not to influence anyone, not to enter the sacred sphere of someone else’s freedom, but to support the birth of the free human being, offering them the opportunity to know that freedom and act in freedom from within that sphere. Speaking of democracy, we really need to pursue this impulse, because democracy can only arise from this superior freedom of the I. We can’t dream of a democracy born out of political processes. It’s impossible. What takes form on the political plane has to be first gained spiritually, by those who have the presumption and the big responsibility to follow the way of the Spirit. The poor politicians are admirable, because they are able to invest everything, their whole selves, in their plans, in which they do believe. They are convinced they are realizing something of value. In fact, what is realized is the true ethical content of a nation, that which becomes the destiny of a people. Last time we treated this topic well enough, let’s not go back to it today.

We are living in times of formidable momentum. We are living through a fateful juncture in the history of humanity. Our responsibility is extensive, because everything that happens externally can be traced back to either something we got wrong or something we earned with determination. The difficulties are there, every day. Every day there are reasons to feel sorrow and frustration, but we have to continually oppose this thought. It’s extremely important that we endure every burden, and that we overcome them. The salvation of the collective we belong to depends on that. At this point, I can't refrain from reading out the warning: “Watch over and meditate, because the Spirit is strong, even if the flesh is weak”. This is very true. Our flesh will be strong in a few millennia, but for now we have to ground everything in the Spirit, and gain autonomy with regard to everything physical. This autonomy, as we know, comes from the liberation of thinking. The path of thinking offers the highest level of autonomy from the physical sphere, regardless of the situation we have to face.

Dear Massimo, could you speak of the use of magical plants by the disciple, and …
The ink, dear friend, is a bit faded, anyway, I get the question. You refer to the magical plants, but all plants are magical. There is no plant whose etheric current is not necessary to the human body, because man’s etheric body is the synthesis of all etheric currents active in the plant realm. Whenever it becomes possible to identify the etheric deficiency associated with a certain illness, one can intuit what the corresponding plant is also. Etheric deficiencies can have multiple origins: etheric deficiency may depend on excess of the physical element, or excess of the astral element over the etheric, and it’s all about understanding the existing relationships. There are various types of illness according to these relationships. Because the decisive phases of an illness, as well as of the healing process, happen at the etheric level, the choice of a specific plant is crucial. Moreover one has to determine whether to use the root, the bark, the leafs, or the flowers, depending on the illnesses and on the body parts concerned. In some cases it’s also about knowing the relevance of the plant growth, and the time when the sprouts appear. All this is possible to discern. Anyway, dear Massimiliano, we are in the early days of a new science. I know that some individuals are working at it, but it requires time, patience, and also righteousness. While these people are working, we have to take our protection in our own hands. Whoever follows a really orderly path of inner development, in the way we speak of it, has the possibility to receive an intuition about illness, from the higher self. It is possible to have an intuition of what medicine to take, an intuition of what plant is related to the illness, and what substance could help, as we wait for the advent of a systematic science of the healing power of plants and mineral elements. Mineral substances are also important, for example, iodine. Who knows what iodine really is? We never see that iodine is used, nonetheless, it is a substance of crucial importance. Various points would need to be made here, but we are about to close now.

And so we can't conclude otherwise than with a positive, optimistic thought - a thought that assigns a task: “To maintain contact with Logos in our impulse towards a beloved being”. We are ending on the most important and most difficult task. As we have mentioned, it’s the I who loves. The I needs to be there. Usually what happens is that the astral comes in. The astral calls, but doesn’t love. The astral has to be infused by the I, it has to be reawakened by the I so that it can provide original, powerful impulses. If the I is not there, the astral gives out Lucifer. It can be a rosy Lucifer, a benign Lucifer. It will still be against the free human being. Lucifer does not want the I who loves. This is why Love and Freedom cannot be separated. Out of love for the other being one has to be autonomous from the other person. This autonomy has to transform into an ability to immerse oneself in the other being - it’s the presence of Logos. And this is all. This is the secret of everything. But the point is, it’s all about making sure that this presence can operate, because the presence is there. We have said that: the presence of Logos is realized. It is realized on the physical plane, it’s realized in the etheric plane. It’s up to man whether to open the door to it or to close it, and man continually closes that door, without knowing it. And when the door has to be opened, man says “...but it’s difficult”. Come on, this is the most important task for humanity. That’s why it’s difficult. Therefore, one needs to have the courage to overcome the difficult moments, keeping in mind that those moments may appear as fearful processes, as deadly processes, with a sense of coming to the end of one’s life. Here one needs to develop courage. Courage is the true force of Love.

***

[1] Thanks to Piero Cammerinesi for making this recording freely available to the public at Libero Pensare.
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In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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AshvinP
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 1:49 pm Reporting another lecture by Scaligero, in form of questions and answers. Main topics:

- Nature of Mars
- Black magic
- The tradition of the Bodhisattva Maitreya
- The difficulty of living up to true love
- Liberating thinking from Lucifer
- The task of educating thinking at a young age
- Illness and healing
- Freedom and Love


Rome March 18, 1978

Thanks for transcribing another stimulating lecture from MS, Federica!

Dear Massimo, do those American space probes on Mars possibly disprove what our Doctor says regarding the non solid nature of Mars? Thank you.
Who says that they disprove it? They don’t, because our Doctor does not say that Mars is not mineral. Everything that shines as a heavenly body, shines because there is a mineral element, otherwise it would not be visible. So the Ahrimanic level is there, it’s fully there. It’s a physical state that simply has not yet reached full solid state. Seemingly, it is said that when our Earth was traversing such a state, that is during the Lemurian age, The Earth was inhabited by monstrous beings, who didn’t have solid bone structure. They had cartilage - not that they appeared less terrible for this reason. So it’s a liquid state - a state that can reach up to viscous density. So we can understand that the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled. So our Doctor says that Mars now is in the state the Earth was in during the Lemurian epoch. So there is no contradiction, when we carefully read what he really says. I believe there is not much else to add to this.

On this question, we could also reference Cleric’s post. These things can get pretty confusing when we meet them with exoteric scientific research that is now beyond Steiner's or MS' time, so we should proceed cautiously and remain faithful that their mysterious connection between the exoteric and esoteric will be better grasped with our own higher development, which gives much greater insight into why the exoteric research facts are the way that they are.

Cleric wrote:Mars men are the human-level beings whose soul nature is dominated by the Mars forces. Part of these forces are related to individualization and dominance. It's for this reason that the ancients understood the Mars sphere as the God of war. The Mars and all other sphere's forces live in the Earthly man too. We are a cross-section of the spheres, so to speak.

Mars men live in Imaginative consciousness, they don't have mineral bodies. Here we can change our notions a little. In esoteric sense, Earth is not simply one of the planets in our Solar system but the state of existence that manifests when the spirit descends into the decohered levels of the Solar 'wavefunction', so to speak. At that level all spheres have their mineral shadow (so in occult sense our rocky Moon, Mars and so on are also Earth) but in the course of evolution our planetary body has been made into the point of balance that allows for mineralization to go so far yet also remain bridgeable to the life of soul and spirit through the gradient of organic biology.

With this in mind, we can have Mars men walking on Earth, Venus men, Mercury men and so on. It's a matter of the dominant forces within the soul organism. Yet there are human souls that are too one-sidedly developed to have proper incarnation in the Earthly spectrum (which requires at least some degree of balance of all planetary forces to have a properly functioning physical body). In the disincarnate state these souls really form 'communities' with corresponding Imaginative structure. After each incarnation we do pass through these spheres. The fact that the Buddha works on Mars men means simply that he's tightly engaged with the sphere of the Mars forces. In certain sense, he has the not easy task to inspire transformations in the Mars nature. This work is accomplished in the Imaginative spectrum of the Mars sphere but we shouldn't imagine that Buddha is far away on the rocky planet Mars. Everything that is accomplished in the Mars sphere has its immediate significance in our Earthly state, as far as the Mars forces that are weaved into our being are concerned.

To be sure, the soul and spiritual activities of the Mars men must necessarily have their projection also in the mineral level. Similarly to the quote about the future human being, these disincarnate human beings' activities have their effects not only in our souls but also in the winds of Mars for example, but the conscious experience is such that these human beings don't feel like "I'm that whirlwind, you're the one over there" or something like that. They don't even perceive a rocky red planet on the surface of which they move. These human beings live psychic life, so to speak. They fight with their soul forces over their perspectives of their Imaginative dreamscape but that dreamscape doesn't rigidify to the level of mineral lawfulness (we need to be entangled with that part of the spectrum in our mineral bodies for this to happen).
MS wrote:[Reading a question] “Love for another person has to mean a commitment to love everything in them, transforming the heart into a power station of love - It’s a difficult endeavor, so difficult that one is tempted to give up.
Well, we follow the way of freedom. It means that we are free, including free to give up. In certain situations one is more free in surrender. Nonetheless, if one really is free, surrender is short-lived. One comes back to love, because freedom and love are the same impulse. Freedom is the act of the I. The I is a radiant force who does not need to refer to love in order to radiate onto itself, therefore the question is very simple: it’s necessary to be free. If one becomes liberated from all sorts of emotional or instinctual strangleholds, then the question of loving another being becomes clearer. With that new limpid vision, one can get back to the task of true love, not the parody of love. The love that we speak of, with reference to the theme of the Grail, is not yet in existence. But those who are capable of the supersensible experience of thinking can walk in that direction.

That is a very important point, because often it will seem like loving surrender to the Cosmic will is a hampering of our freedom, i.e. that it is just another form of enslavement like we experience when following the impulses of our own personal will, the will of other human beings, or the will of nature. But that is not the case. To use myself as an example, there have been plenty of times when I consciously chose to act according to lower impulses, but knowing full well that there would be attendant consequences in my stream of becoming. It is like I was saying, “I know that I will have to compensate for this action in the near future, or at the latest after death, and I am willing to endure all the attendant suffering necessary to effect that compensation.” In this way, we begin to realize that every free act which chooses to follow lower impulses will condition us in a way that deprives our future freedom since we will be constrained into certain pathways of experience necessary for the compensation of that act. There is already great freedom attained through the inner understanding of these things, or as MS says, "in certain situations one is more free in surrender" - we won't be able to resist all lower impulses, but when we encounter them in full consciousness and free exchange, with a sense of obligation to make good on their effects, the seeds of future freedom from such impulses are being planted. And when we realize that actions that concern not only ourselves but also our fellow beings are even more conditioning of our experiential stream, to the extent they negatively influence the potential development of those beings, and that the line between deeds which concern only us and those which concern others is not so easy to establish, we are more inclined to align ourselves with loving actions towards ourselves and others that decondition us from future experiential constraints. That may seem egotistical to some extent and it is at first, because we are thinking about our own potential for freedom to begin with, but then we realize our freedom is necessarily bound up with the freedom of our fellow beings as well, since we are essentially a unified karmic organism. And we realize that we are in no position to help others when we remain just as unfree as they are, and if we seek only freedom for our personal benefit, we are still not aligned with the truth of the "I" and therefore not actually free.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:45 pm
Dear Massimo, do those American space probes on Mars possibly disprove what our Doctor says regarding the non solid nature of Mars? Thank you.
Who says that they disprove it? They don’t, because our Doctor does not say that Mars is not mineral. Everything that shines as a heavenly body, shines because there is a mineral element, otherwise it would not be visible. So the Ahrimanic level is there, it’s fully there. It’s a physical state that simply has not yet reached full solid state. Seemingly, it is said that when our Earth was traversing such a state, that is during the Lemurian age, The Earth was inhabited by monstrous beings, who didn’t have solid bone structure. They had cartilage - not that they appeared less terrible for this reason. So it’s a liquid state - a state that can reach up to viscous density. So we can understand that the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled. So our Doctor says that Mars now is in the state the Earth was in during the Lemurian epoch. So there is no contradiction, when we carefully read what he really says. I believe there is not much else to add to this.

On this question, we could also reference Cleric’s post. These things can get pretty confusing when we meet them with exoteric scientific research that is now beyond Steiner's or MS' time, so we should proceed cautiously and remain faithful that their mysterious connection between the exoteric and esoteric will be better grasped with our own higher development, which gives much greater insight into why the exoteric research facts are the way that they are.

Cleric wrote:Mars men are the human-level beings whose soul nature is dominated by the Mars forces. Part of these forces are related to individualization and dominance. It's for this reason that the ancients understood the Mars sphere as the God of war. The Mars and all other sphere's forces live in the Earthly man too. We are a cross-section of the spheres, so to speak.

Mars men live in Imaginative consciousness, they don't have mineral bodies. Here we can change our notions a little. In esoteric sense, Earth is not simply one of the planets in our Solar system but the state of existence that manifests when the spirit descends into the decohered levels of the Solar 'wavefunction', so to speak. At that level all spheres have their mineral shadow (so in occult sense our rocky Moon, Mars and so on are also Earth) but in the course of evolution our planetary body has been made into the point of balance that allows for mineralization to go so far yet also remain bridgeable to the life of soul and spirit through the gradient of organic biology.

With this in mind, we can have Mars men walking on Earth, Venus men, Mercury men and so on. It's a matter of the dominant forces within the soul organism. Yet there are human souls that are too one-sidedly developed to have proper incarnation in the Earthly spectrum (which requires at least some degree of balance of all planetary forces to have a properly functioning physical body). In the disincarnate state these souls really form 'communities' with corresponding Imaginative structure. After each incarnation we do pass through these spheres. The fact that the Buddha works on Mars men means simply that he's tightly engaged with the sphere of the Mars forces. In certain sense, he has the not easy task to inspire transformations in the Mars nature. This work is accomplished in the Imaginative spectrum of the Mars sphere but we shouldn't imagine that Buddha is far away on the rocky planet Mars. Everything that is accomplished in the Mars sphere has its immediate significance in our Earthly state, as far as the Mars forces that are weaved into our being are concerned.

To be sure, the soul and spiritual activities of the Mars men must necessarily have their projection also in the mineral level. Similarly to the quote about the future human being, these disincarnate human beings' activities have their effects not only in our souls but also in the winds of Mars for example, but the conscious experience is such that these human beings don't feel like "I'm that whirlwind, you're the one over there" or something like that. They don't even perceive a rocky red planet on the surface of which they move. These human beings live psychic life, so to speak. They fight with their soul forces over their perspectives of their Imaginative dreamscape but that dreamscape doesn't rigidify to the level of mineral lawfulness (we need to be entangled with that part of the spectrum in our mineral bodies for this to happen).

Ashvin,

You have anticipated a question I had, thanks for bringing this up! Indeed one gets the impression that there is something off in MS’ answer, or something missing. I know you advised me to ponder my replies more, and suspend judgment. I assure you I am not judging. I realize I am moving on very fragmentary understanding, so I’m not attached to the thoughts I have written here. But I would like to see if they match. I've read both your and Cleric's replies to Eugene, and Steiner lecture where he speaks of fluid Mars.


Cleric wrote:it's a matter of attaining consciousness of this. This is achieved by our sheaths becoming resonantly attuned, like fractal levels, such that the experiences in the non-local levels can be 'amplified' through the gradient to the level of thoughts, which surely depend on the local formations of the etheric and physical brain and other organs.

Scarsely related, but I believe the amplification Cleric describes, necessary for us to become comfortable with these esoteric facts, is the same thing as the brain excavations, or brain channels, in MS’ lecture. It’s interesting that in one case transformation is removing barriers to the flow of Logos from the most dense layer, the physical brain, while in Cleric it’s not about removing, as much as it is adjusting the coordination of our 4 bodies so that resonance can traverse the real-size Moire pattern of our organization and warm the brain. I am trying to get a sense of how these two understandings may interfere, but I’m not quite there…..

Cleric wrote:At that level all spheres have their mineral shadow (so in occult sense our rocky Moon, Mars and so on are also Earth) but in the course of evolution our planetary body has been made into the point of balance that allows for mineralization to go so far yet also remain bridgeable to the life of soul and spirit through the gradient of organic biology.

Control question: this position of the Earth as point of balance is only true during the Earth current evolutionary phase? In other words, it will not apply to the future Jupiter state, correct?



Coming to the question of Mars, this is the Steiner lecture in question, in which he is asked to describe Mars. He says:
Steiner wrote:Mars consists primarily of a more or less fluid mass, not as fluid as our water but, shall we say, more like the consistency of jelly, or something of that kind. There are also dense components, but they are not as densely solid as those of our earth. Their consistency would be more comparable to that of the antlers or horns of our animals, which form out of the general mass and dissolve back into it again. So we must realize that the constitution of Mars is entirely different from that of our earth. …
Only everything on Mars is much more full of life than on the earth. The earth is a dead planet in a far stronger sense than Mars, on which everything is still more or less living.
I would advance a theory. I am not sure of course. It seems at first that Steiner is speaking of the mineral shadow of Mars (the physical planet) because such is the orientation of the question, and he does not explicitly state otherwise. I feel this is also how Scaligero reads it, based on how he deals with the Mars question in his lecture. And maybe this puts him somewhat in trouble. Following what Cleric says, maybe we shouldn’t imagine the planetary organization of the being-Mars as a mirror of our own organization, or a mirror of the Earth’s, in terms of how the various bodies stand in relation to each other. Maybe the form of the Mars decoherence is such that its mineral shadow is more ‘one-sided’ and insignificant, because the planet is so full of life (as Steiner says). The counterintuitive part for the exoteric mind is that “full of life” means full of etheric life, and consequently with less dead stuff (less of what from a materialistic perspective is precisely considered budding, rich, diverse life, as in the magnificent diversity of life on Earth, for instance). This makes Steiner’s description a bit obscure from standard perspective, but consistent in esoteric terms.
In other words, the whole planet organization of Mars - not physical Mars - is full of life, which could actually reflect in a dry and dead material shell - such as the one we know today through space exploration - because the life force and the soul are such that there is not much left to precipitate into Mars’s physical sphere. Also, what Cleric says, that Mars man lacks a physical body, supports that too, considering that a planet and its plain-right inhabitants share a particular connection. I say 'plain-right' to signify that I don’t forget that we all live ‘on Mars’ in some sense. So the whole Mars complex (planet + beings) seems to be more “introverted” than us on our Earth, so to say, more drawn away from the physical, and I guess Steiner was giving an overall description of the Mars-being, not only of its mineral part. It could be a joint description of the etheric+physical planes, where the major part is the life-etheric part. As a consequence what’s left to perceive by space probes is actually not that much. A solid, but all in all scarcely significant dead precipitation, that conceals from a physical-telescopic eye all the richness of Martian life. In case this makes sense, I wonder if MS missed it. What do you think?
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Anthony66 »

AshvinP wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 3:36 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 3:12 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:23 pm


I'm not really sure what you are speaking of anymore. I am not interested in conditioning my thinking to sectarian debates about Covid that are in vogue these days, because I know nothing positive for spiritual development can come from that. That was never the topic of this thread, so let's keep it that way.

I wonder if you have any thoughts to contribute about any of the posts on this thread? You don't need to contribute something new and original, it could be as simple as restating what was already written in your own words or asking a question about something that is unclear. These are ways to promote our spiritual development. It is always more helpful to redirect our impulse to voice negative opinions and judgments of others and their ideas into a positive longing and enthusiasm to understand the nature of the spiritual reality we exist in.
The thing is, one can make up any manner of BSC (technical acronym = bat sh!t crazy) ideas. The onus is not on the other to repudiate these ideas, rather the instigator to demonstrate them. Powell has a track record of BSC ideas which are demonstrably false, which lowers the prior of anything he says having any comport to reality. Just because he comes from the esotericist camp and has translated works that do have value means next to nothing. The thing I have to contribute is to run for the hills. Don't be gullible. I'm sorry, I've got no time for the peddlers of woo. Get back to the safe ground of phenomenology (where's Cleric?) rather than chasing after this sort of stuff.

Ok, Anthony, message received... "run for the hills".

Let's forget about Powell and replace his quote with one from Steiner to make the same exact point that was made in that post. I'm wondering now, should we also run for the hills when reading this? Or should we confront it with solemnity and humility and try to understand what it means for our individual-collective stream of becoming today?

Steiner wrote:There are wonderful documents in Eastern literature full of a peculiar tragical enchantment, and telling us that at one time it was possible for human beings to travel to a land where the Spiritual flowed into the physical. It is that Land from whence at certain times the Initiates — and at all times the Bodhisattvas — drew fresh forces. The Eastern writings speak with deep sorrow of that land, asking: ‘Where is it? We are told the names of places, paths are named; but the Land itself is concealed, even from those most initiated among the Lamas of Thibet!’ Only to the highest Initiates is it accessible. But it is always stated that some day this Land will return to earth. That is true; it will return to earth! And the guide thereto will be He Whom men will see, when, through the vision of the Event of Damascus, they reach the Land of Shamballa. ‘Shamballa’ — for so this Land is called — has withdrawn from the sight of man. It can only be entered to-day by those who, as Initiates, go there from time to time to be strengthened. The old forces can no longer lead man thither. That is why Eastern literature speaks with such tragic despair of the vanished Land of Shamballa. But the Christ-Event, which will be vouchsafed to man in this century through his newly-awakened faculties, will bring back the Fairy-Land of Shamballa, which through the whole of Kali-Yuga could only be known to the Initiates.

Thus humanity is now called upon to make a decision, whether it shall allow itself, through what comes with the Halley Comet, to be lead down into a darkness even lower than that of Kali-Yuga, or whether through an understanding developed by Anthroposophy it shall not neglect to cultivate the new faculties by which it may find the way to the Land which according to Eastern Literature has disappeared, but which Christ will once more reveal to mankind; — the Land of Shamballa. That is the great question of the dividing of the ways: either to go down or to go up. Either to go down into something which, as a Cosmic-Kamaloka lies still deeper down than Kali-Yuga, or to work for that which will enable man to enter that realm, which is really alluded to under the name of Shamballa.
I am not in any way able to form a judgement on Steiner's quote apart from the fact that any alignment with Powell must reduce our confidence given Powell's demonstrable nuttery. As I said a couple of posts back, I want this to be my last world on this thread so that I can pursue issues I deem more fruitful for me at this time.
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AshvinP
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:25 pm Ashvin,

You have anticipated a question I had, thanks for bringing this up! Indeed one gets the impression that there is something off in MS’ answer, or something missing. I know you advised me to ponder my replies more, and suspend judgment. I assure you I am not judging. I realize I am moving on very fragmentary understanding, so I’m not attached to the thoughts I have written here. But I would like to see if they match. I've read both your and Cleric's replies to Eugene, and Steiner lecture where he speaks of fluid Mars.


Cleric wrote:it's a matter of attaining consciousness of this. This is achieved by our sheaths becoming resonantly attuned, like fractal levels, such that the experiences in the non-local levels can be 'amplified' through the gradient to the level of thoughts, which surely depend on the local formations of the etheric and physical brain and other organs.

Scarsely related, but I believe the amplification Cleric describes, necessary for us to become comfortable with these esoteric facts, is the same thing as the brain excavations, or brain channels, in MS’ lecture. It’s interesting that in one case transformation is removing barriers to the flow of Logos from the most dense layer, the physical brain, while in Cleric it’s not about removing, as much as it is adjusting the coordination of our 4 bodies so that resonance can traverse the real-size Moire pattern of our organization and warm the brain. I am trying to get a sense of how these two understandings may interfere, but I’m not quite there…..

Cleric wrote:At that level all spheres have their mineral shadow (so in occult sense our rocky Moon, Mars and so on are also Earth) but in the course of evolution our planetary body has been made into the point of balance that allows for mineralization to go so far yet also remain bridgeable to the life of soul and spirit through the gradient of organic biology.

Control question: this position of the Earth as point of balance is only true during the Earth current evolutionary phase? In other words, it will not apply to the future Jupiter state, correct?



Coming to the question of Mars, this is the Steiner lecture in question, in which he is asked to describe Mars. He says:
Steiner wrote:Mars consists primarily of a more or less fluid mass, not as fluid as our water but, shall we say, more like the consistency of jelly, or something of that kind. There are also dense components, but they are not as densely solid as those of our earth. Their consistency would be more comparable to that of the antlers or horns of our animals, which form out of the general mass and dissolve back into it again. So we must realize that the constitution of Mars is entirely different from that of our earth. …
Only everything on Mars is much more full of life than on the earth. The earth is a dead planet in a far stronger sense than Mars, on which everything is still more or less living.
I would advance a theory. I am not sure of course. It seems at first that Steiner is speaking of the mineral shadow of Mars (the physical planet) because such is the orientation of the question, and he does not explicitly state otherwise. I feel this is also how Scaligero reads it, based on how he deals with the Mars question in his lecture. And maybe this puts him somewhat in trouble. Following what Cleric says, maybe we shouldn’t imagine the planetary organization of the being-Mars as a mirror of our own organization, or a mirror of the Earth’s, in terms of how the various bodies stand in relation to each other. Maybe the form of the Mars decoherence is such that its mineral shadow is more ‘one-sided’ and insignificant, because the planet is so full of life (as Steiner says). The counterintuitive part for the exoteric mind is that “full of life” means full of etheric life, and consequently with less dead stuff (less of what from a materialistic perspective is precisely considered budding, rich, diverse life, as in the magnificent diversity of life on Earth, for instance). This makes Steiner’s description a bit obscure from standard perspective, but consistent in esoteric terms.
In other words, the whole planet organization of Mars - not physical Mars - is full of life, which could actually reflect in a dry and dead material shell - such as the one we know today through space exploration - because the life force and the soul are such that there is not much left to precipitate into Mars’s physical sphere. Also, what Cleric says, that Mars man lacks a physical body, supports that too, considering that a planet and its plain-right inhabitants share a particular connection. I say 'plain-right' to signify that I don’t forget that we all live ‘on Mars’ in some sense. So the whole Mars complex (planet + beings) seems to be more “introverted” than us on our Earth, so to say, more drawn away from the physical, and I guess Steiner was giving an overall description of the Mars-being, not only of its mineral part. It could be a joint description of the etheric+physical planes, where the major part is the life-etheric part. As a consequence what’s left to perceive by space probes is actually not that much. A solid, but all in all scarcely significant dead precipitation, that conceals from a physical-telescopic eye all the richness of Martian life. In case this makes sense, I wonder if MS missed it. What do you think?

Federica,

I will need to consider your various points more carefully before formulating a response. For now, I just want to make a brief note on how I understand the 'occult sense of Earth'. I think the simplest way to approach this would be to identify Earth in the occult sense as a communal state of consciousness in which inhabitants become aware of their willing being in relation to other beings (or what is normally understood as the ‘outer world’) at the level of the mineral shadow. As long as we remain at this stage of self-awareness and other-awareness, we are still on Earth or carrying the Earth with us wherever we imagine we are “going”. There is, of course, still some relation between the perceptual constellations we experience and the underlying ideal realities they symbolize, but the relation is not very dependent on spatial distances. The latter only reflect back to us our own limitations of thinking-will. That is the way I think about it right now, at least. Scaligero also addresses this aspect in one of his books. I am interested to hear what you think.

Nevertheless, we think we can master space by moving from place to place while inevitably always bearing the same limit. Scientific knowledge and mathematical logic reassure us of this, as they both create a new metaphysics out of the impotency to cognize the limit. We consider it quite an accomplishment to overcome given distances with greater speed, namely, by reinforcing the illusion that space is conquerable and that earthly limits can be overcome via machines, which are themselves the typical expression of our subjection to such limits. These limits can be overcome only where they are grasped and cognized. For the only extraterrestrial space toward which we can journey is that which requires the use of a carefully encapsulated missile in which all necessary conditions for our earthly existence are reproduced. And even so, Earth is, in effect, never left behind. This is also the case with the nervous system, whose life can exist only upon the Earth's surface and whose mediation gives rise to the formation of nature's abstract laws. The validity of such laws diminishes as we gradually distance ourselves from Earth. To become distant from Earth is to experience what can be gathered beyond the mediation of this nervous system. But this would effectively be to realize thought's autonomy from intellectualism, to realize an independence from sensory conditions that enables our inner being to explore other worlds and to perceive the life unknown to us on Earth. Earth is still unknown to those who presumably probe the cosmos. The life that gives rise on Earth to the existence of plants, animals, and human beings is a mystery to them. The mystery that they seek “spatially” is merely the life on Earth that arrives from the extraterrestrial cosmos, a cosmos that cannot be reached unless we know how to encounter it in its various earthly forms.

Scaligero, Massimo. The Secrets of Space and Time (pp. 22-23). Lindisfarne Books. Kindle Edition.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Cleric K »

Federica wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:25 pm In other words, the whole planet organization of Mars - not physical Mars - is full of life, which could actually reflect in a dry and dead material shell - such as the one we know today through space exploration - because the life force and the soul are such that there is not much left to precipitate into Mars’s physical sphere. Also, what Cleric says, that Mars man lacks a physical body, supports that too, considering that a planet and its plain-right inhabitants share a particular connection. I say 'plain-right' to signify that I don’t forget that we all live ‘on Mars’ in some sense. So the whole Mars complex (planet + beings) seems to be more “introverted” than us on our Earth, so to say, more drawn away from the physical, and I guess Steiner was giving an overall description of the Mars-being, not only of its mineral part. It could be a joint description of the etheric+physical planes, where the major part is the life-etheric part. As a consequence what’s left to perceive by space probes is actually not that much. A solid, but all in all scarcely significant dead precipitation, that conceals from a physical-telescopic eye all the richness of Martian life. In case this makes sense, I wonder if MS missed it. What do you think?
Hi Federica,
I think you put things well. In the face of MS’s quote that Ashvin posted above, I’m not sure if he missed the point (in the quote about Mars). I’m not sure what he means by a space probe getting entangled/embroiled and unable to come back. Is it possible that the answer to that question and what Ashvin quoted could be from different times, where he may have revised his understanding?

Other than that I think we can distinguish the evolution of understanding when it concerns the nature of the spiritual.

For a long time, the unity of the Cosmos has been projected into sensory-like symbols. For example – hell below, in the bowels of the Earth, Heaven above in the skies. It’s interesting to try and feel how different things must have felt for men of the olden times (yet at a time where the ancient clairvoyance was already fading away). Just imagine what it is to be born in some area and have only a vague idea of what lies North, South, etc. The further out in space our imagination wanders, the more uncertain things become and often quite mythical.

In this respect, the rigidifying consciousness falls into the trap of mistaking the symbols for spatial reality. It is not uncommon that the transition to another world is imagined by moving far enough into a certain direction in space.

It’s interesting that even a hundred years ago, at the time of Steiner, things were not that clear too. Of course, for centuries people have intellectually imagined the spatial picture of the Cosmos but before space flight, the dome of the sky was still something mysterious. What if it is just a giant billboard? Only when humans began to send machines and even people into outer space, the certainty of the spatial reality of the Cosmos became more established in the collective consciousness. It is as if our intellectual consciousness has expanded and now freely moves in physical Cosmic space.

On several occasions I feel that even Steiner was not clear enough when speaking of such spatial thresholds. For example, he spoke about the interior of the Earth, of the Sun. We know the occult descriptions of the interior of the Earth with its layers, which when taken literally become the confusions in our times like the hollow Earth theory. Even in our technologically advanced era, there are still such horizons of sensory perceptual knowledge. The present impossibility to cross these horizons still agitate the mythical imagination and are sometimes taken as the last vestiges where the portals to other worlds can be found, since we have ruled out most other candidates (like whatever lies above our heads in the sky).

The understanding that I have arrived at and which seems to match MS’s quote above, is that sensory space should be taken as an infinity in all directions. No matter how far we wander we basically find only Earth in the occult sense (it is still an interesting question what would the psychic effect be if a human reaches the edge of the Solar system for example). Thus the other worlds are to be grasped by our thinking not as spatially separated but more in the sense of frequency separation – as a spectrum. Obviously, such an understanding can be a trap just as well if it remains only as an intellectual theory. But at least it gives us a way to embrace the infinity of the sensory world in all directions and realize that we won’t find the higher worlds even if we could enter below the Sun’s surface for example. As we have said so many times, the reality of the higher worlds is found only when our inner life (which for most is flattened over and sucked into the sensory perceptions/organs/nervous system) becomes ‘delaminated’ and we begin to distinguish the life of the spirit in the different realms.

The way I find for thinking about these things to be most fruitful is to avoid imagining physical space as some compartment of the spiritual Cosmos. What I mean is that we shouldn’t imagine that in the higher worlds, beings were living spiritually and then said “OK, let’s create now a physical world (as if it can be appended as a room to an existing building) and fill it with matter and biological life”. Instead, what I found useful is to think more that through our bodily life we’re attuned to a whole Cosmos of similarly 'sounding' elemental processes. Think of space filled with tuning forks of the most varied sizes (which is connected with the wavelength, thus the frequency). If our bodily complex rings as a collection of such tuning forks then only compatible frequencies will ring back in resonance. This ringing back forms a kind of horizon within the totality of spiritual potential, except the horizon is not flat but spatial. In other words, what we call a physical world is the totality of similarly attuned spiritual processes. These may exist within an infinity of other processes but as long as we haven’t found how to integrate their frequencies in our vertical chord, they don’t seem to register.
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:45 pm
MS wrote:[Reading a question] “Love for another person has to mean a commitment to love everything in them, transforming the heart into a power station of love - It’s a difficult endeavor, so difficult that one is tempted to give up.
Well, we follow the way of freedom. It means that we are free, including free to give up. In certain situations one is more free in surrender. Nonetheless, if one really is free, surrender is short-lived. One comes back to love, because freedom and love are the same impulse. Freedom is the act of the I. The I is a radiant force who does not need to refer to love in order to radiate onto itself, therefore the question is very simple: it’s necessary to be free. If one becomes liberated from all sorts of emotional or instinctual strangleholds, then the question of loving another being becomes clearer. With that new limpid vision, one can get back to the task of true love, not the parody of love. The love that we speak of, with reference to the theme of the Grail, is not yet in existence. But those who are capable of the supersensible experience of thinking can walk in that direction.

That is a very important point, because often it will seem like loving surrender to the Cosmic will is a hampering of our freedom, i.e. that it is just another form of enslavement like we experience when following the impulses of our own personal will, the will of other human beings, or the will of nature. But that is not the case. To use myself as an example, there have been plenty of times when I consciously chose to act according to lower impulses, but knowing full well that there would be attendant consequences in my stream of becoming. It is like I was saying, “I know that I will have to compensate for this action in the near future, or at the latest after death, and I am willing to endure all the attendant suffering necessary to effect that compensation.” In this way, we begin to realize that every free act which chooses to follow lower impulses will condition us in a way that deprives our future freedom since we will be constrained into certain pathways of experience necessary for the compensation of that act. There is already great freedom attained through the inner understanding of these things, or as MS says, "in certain situations one is more free in surrender" - we won't be able to resist all lower impulses, but when we encounter them in full consciousness and free exchange, with a sense of obligation to make good on their effects, the seeds of future freedom from such impulses are being planted. And when we realize that actions that concern not only ourselves but also our fellow beings are even more conditioning of our experiential stream, to the extent they negatively influence the potential development of those beings, and that the line between deeds which concern only us and those which concern others is not so easy to establish, we are more inclined to align ourselves with loving actions towards ourselves and others that decondition us from future experiential constraints. That may seem egotistical to some extent and it is at first, because we are thinking about our own potential for freedom to begin with, but then we realize our freedom is necessarily bound up with the freedom of our fellow beings as well, since we are essentially a unified karmic organism. And we realize that we are in no position to help others when we remain just as unfree as they are, and if we seek only freedom for our personal benefit, we are still not aligned with the truth of the "I" and therefore not actually free.

Ashvin,

Thanks for this perspective! A note of detail first: I hope I didn't mischievously translate "surrender". The meaning in the lecture isn't surrender as abandonment to instincts, but surrender as renunciation, as staying away from something that appears too difficult - in that example, loving another person completely. So it's surrender to the discouragement elicited by a 'titanic' task. Maybe this was already clear, but sorry if "surrender" is not the best word. I am not sure.

But regarding your point on becoming conscious of the inevitable consequences of our acts of surrendering to instincts: I do follow that it's a positive step towards freedom when we at least don't do it lightly and mindlessly. But I feel there's a somewhat dangerous aspect to what you describe, that I would maybe call a sort of 'karmic negotiation'? Or maybe I have not understood you well. But if one indulges in something one considers wrongful, not by lack of strength or knowledge, but by conscious agreement with karma, it seems to me it's the beginning of the idea of Faust? And another question that comes to mind: isn't the possibility of forgiveness lost in that case, if we fail by calculation? Maybe I misinterpreted, or maybe your point is about not falling prey to illusions. Now, by all means, I am not saying that I don't have this problem, that I have perfect discipline, and perfect knowledge of what I should do. That would be very far from the truth. But it never occurred to me, when I'm doing something, or omitting something, by weakness, laziness, undecidedness and similar, that I could negotiate with the devil! :) To the extent that I am aware of the problem, I would not be able to feel that the thing is settled, or could have been settled. It rather feels like an open account that is pending, out of balance.

I realize the question is less straightforward than it seems, and maybe what I describe amounts to a bigger lack of freedom, because, you could say, there is no good in a vague feeling of guilt that only depends on ignorance of the amount that would close the account. Ultimately the question is: should we have an ideal of perfection, even when we are a world apart from it, or is it best to remain reasonable, discover the price of everything, and keep our books in as orderly a manner as we can?
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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Cleric K wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:13 pm Hi Federica,
I think you put things well. In the face of MS’s quote that Ashvin posted above, I’m not sure if he missed the point (in the quote about Mars). I’m not sure what he means by a space probe getting entangled/embroiled and unable to come back. Is it possible that the answer to that question and what Ashvin quoted could be from different times, where he may have revised his understanding?

Other than that I think we can distinguish the evolution of understanding when it concerns the nature of the spiritual.

For a long time, the unity of the Cosmos has been projected into sensory-like symbols. For example – hell below, in the bowels of the Earth, Heaven above in the skies. It’s interesting to try and feel how different things must have felt for men of the olden times (yet at a time where the ancient clairvoyance was already fading away). Just imagine what it is to be born in some area and have only a vague idea of what lies North, South, etc. The further out in space our imagination wanders, the more uncertain things become and often quite mythical.

In this respect, the rigidifying consciousness falls into the trap of mistaking the symbols for spatial reality. It is not uncommon that the transition to another world is imagined by moving far enough into a certain direction in space.

It’s interesting that even a hundred years ago, at the time of Steiner, things were not that clear too. Of course, for centuries people have intellectually imagined the spatial picture of the Cosmos but before space flight, the dome of the sky was still something mysterious. What if it is just a giant billboard? Only when humans began to send machines and even people into outer space, the certainty of the spatial reality of the Cosmos became more established in the collective consciousness. It is as if our intellectual consciousness has expanded and now freely moves in physical Cosmic space.

On several occasions I feel that even Steiner was not clear enough when speaking of such spatial thresholds. For example, he spoke about the interior of the Earth, of the Sun. We know the occult descriptions of the interior of the Earth with its layers, which when taken literally become the confusions in our times like the hollow Earth theory. Even in our technologically advanced era, there are still such horizons of sensory perceptual knowledge. The present impossibility to cross these horizons still agitate the mythical imagination and are sometimes taken as the last vestiges where the portals to other worlds can be found, since we have ruled out most other candidates (like whatever lies above our heads in the sky).

The understanding that I have arrived at and which seems to match MS’s quote above, is that sensory space should be taken as an infinity in all directions. No matter how far we wander we basically find only Earth in the occult sense (it is still an interesting question what would the psychic effect be if a human reaches the edge of the Solar system for example). Thus the other worlds are to be grasped by our thinking not as spatially separated but more in the sense of frequency separation – as a spectrum. Obviously, such an understanding can be a trap just as well if it remains only as an intellectual theory. But at least it gives us a way to embrace the infinity of the sensory world in all directions and realize that we won’t find the higher worlds even if we could enter below the Sun’s surface for example. As we have said so many times, the reality of the higher worlds is found only when our inner life (which for most is flattened over and sucked into the sensory perceptions/organs/nervous system) becomes ‘delaminated’ and we begin to distinguish the life of the spirit in the different realms.

The way I find for thinking about these things to be most fruitful is to avoid imagining physical space as some compartment of the spiritual Cosmos. What I mean is that we shouldn’t imagine that in the higher worlds, beings were living spiritually and then said “OK, let’s create now a physical world (as if it can be appended as a room to an existing building) and fill it with matter and biological life”. Instead, what I found useful is to think more that through our bodily life we’re attuned to a whole Cosmos of similarly 'sounding' elemental processes. Think of space filled with tuning forks of the most varied sizes (which is connected with the wavelength, thus the frequency). If our bodily complex rings as a collection of such tuning forks then only compatible frequencies will ring back in resonance. This ringing back forms a kind of horizon within the totality of spiritual potential, except the horizon is not flat but spatial. In other words, what we call a physical world is the totality of similarly attuned spiritual processes. These may exist within an infinity of other processes but as long as we haven’t found how to integrate their frequencies in our vertical chord, they don’t seem to register.

Cleric,
Thank you for all the insights!

Cleric wrote:I’m not sure what he means by a space probe getting entangled/embroiled and unable to come back. Is it possible that the answer to that question and what Ashvin quoted could be from different times, where he may have revised his understanding?

I think he means, in definitely physical sense, that a spaceship would be met by a sort of sticky quicksand that would impede take off. Regarding the order of writing, the book from which Ashvin has quoted was published in 1964 - fourteen years before the lecture with the question about Mars.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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