Thinking about death

[Federica]

Hey everyone,

as everybody I'm thinking about death a lot.
It is one of the main questions of humankind.
How should one think about death?
When we see a person die, we see that person losing consciousness and the body disintegrating over time.
So the only thing you learn about the death process is from the third perspective.
But how can you think about the death process from your own perspective, as if you were experiencing it?
I'm not interested in thinking about any statements made by occult teachers.

When we talk about death as it appears to us, it looks as if it is the end of all consciousness.
But how about we think about death from the perspective mentioned above and approach its secrets in this way.

I think this is an interesting and important topic, considering how many people fear death (by that I mean myself too)

Hey Güney,

When you train yourself, like you are doing, to experience cognitive states that are less and less dependent on the senses, what you are experiencing - despite that fact that you currently have a physical sheath - is that same reality one finds oneself immersed in after passing the threshold of physical death.

In other words, you are training yourself to experience a state of quasi-death. You still have a body, but you manage to do as if you hadn't it (after enough development). The whole point of developing the spiritual organs in this way is precisely to prepare in awareness for that experience, that would otherwise submerge the individual, once devoid of the anchoring point for the sense of selfhood provided by the physical body.

In this way, the incarnated and the disincarnated modes of existence can be bridged under the uninterrupted self-knowledge of the higher self, which means knowledge of its interconnectedness with the moltitude of idea-beings that constitute reality. So death is similar to a delivery, since it's the moment when the (re)birth of the individual into the spiritual worlds is completed. By 'testing' the experience while still incarnated, one is preparing a luminous and intentional birth of the Self into the spiritual worlds, through the event of death/birth - depending on which side of the threshold you look at it from. Does it make sense?

PS: on a different note - thanks so much to you and Ashvin for mentioning your lyre harp order! I was at a loss to find the right Christmas gift idea for a boy, and now I have it

Federica
I see your point and your right.

But right now I experience in concentration an increasingly intensity of my thoughts, it's like the inner voice becomes louder and more intense.
If I concentrate long enough, there is some thing like forgetting that I have a body.

In prayer it's diferrent, it's like concentrating in a more feeling full way.

How do you experience the states of concentration and prayer ?

Is this forgetfulness of the body that makes you think about death?
Anyway, I have read that this moment of the year in particular, coming to the winter solstice and Jesus' birthday, is especially fruitful for development, and I am glad you are having these experiences. I'm sure you are on a brilliant path of progression!

For my part I have very uneven experiences. I really look forward to the moments of prayer, there's intensity sometimes, but I have to admit I am afraid of concentration. There's a heaviness that leaks out from there that I don't feel ready to face yet. Hopefully I am building some foundations to be able to let myself go into those pictures. Or maybe there's nothing to build up and it's just a matter of making a decision. I will see

[Federica]

Federica - I didn't say no one knows, nor did I say it can't be known (what happens after death)

Ok - does that mean that you are saying: "It can be known" or are you saying: "It's impossible to know whether or not it can be known"?

Looks like you favor some sort of reincarnation?

Well, I don't "favor" reincarnation, meaning I don't think it's a matter of personal preference. Clearly, we all have personal preferences, but they're a superficial layer we eventually need to trancend if we want to make contact with reality.

[lorenzop]

Federica - I didn't say no one knows, nor did I say it can't be known (what happens after death)

Ok - does that mean that you are saying: "It can be known" or are you saying: "It's impossible to know whether or not it can be known"?

Looks like you favor some sort of reincarnation?

Well, I don't "favor" reincarnation, meaning I don't think it's a matter of personal preference. Clearly, we all have personal preferences, but they're a superficial layer we eventually need to trancend if we want to make contact with reality.

I assume what happens after death is knowable, however. there doesn't appear to be any consensus from any group of folks who do know. One can find multiple reports of post death experiences that support all possible beliefs.
So while knowable, there doesn't seem to be consensus.

My position is that if someone is dedicated to recognizing one's true nature, what happens after death is not relevant. I don't hold any beliefs regarding death.

[tjssailor]

Re: Thinking about death
Post by Federica » Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:55 pm

tjssailor wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:51 pm
As someone who's gone through intense fear of death episodes including panic attacks, a deep study of NDEs helped get me through.

Eventually you come to the realization that I can't see you and you can't see me right now because consciousness cannot be seen or detected in any way.

So how could we say what happens to it at death?

When you really ponder this question: Why am I specifically I and you specifically you ? comes another realization that all forms of materialism fail at even attempting to answer the question of our existence.

At the highest levels of resolution matter is a sea of massless bosons traveling at the speed of light. In other words there is no substance to anything.

Having a spiritual or mystical experience can clue us in to the fact that there is more going on then meets the eye. Read the book "Silicon" where Fredrico Fagin, the inventor of the micro-processor. had his own awakening and turned from technology to studying consciousness.


Hej tjssailor,

Reading your reply, a question comes to mind. Since you have come to the realization that consciousness is unfathomable and undetectable in any way, in which sense do you mean that studying NDEs has been helpful?

Fredrica

Since I am consciousness using a certain life form for experience I know that consciousness also uses all other life forms for experience. The experience of death that other life forms report must be similar to what I will then experience as well.

[tjssailor]

Actually Materialism does not imply that death is the end. If we're assuming that random processes somehow create the individualized consciousness
we each seem to be then why couldn't those random processes create us again? Where is the law that says an individualized consciousness is a one shot deal? As a matter of fact in a random universe I should exist in more than one place at a time simultaneously!

I exist, end, then exist again. It would be subjective eternity. The fact that I might forget the specifics of my identity between incarnations means nothing.

[Federica]

Federica - I didn't say no one knows, nor did I say it can't be known (what happens after death)

Ok - does that mean that you are saying: "It can be known" or are you saying: "It's impossible to know whether or not it can be known"?

Looks like you favor some sort of reincarnation?

Well, I don't "favor" reincarnation, meaning I don't think it's a matter of personal preference. Clearly, we all have personal preferences, but they're a superficial layer we eventually need to trancend if we want to make contact with reality.

I assume what happens after death is knowable, however. there doesn't appear to be any consensus from any group of folks who do know. One can find multiple reports of post death experiences that support all possible beliefs.
So while knowable, there doesn't seem to be consensus.

My position is that if someone is dedicated to recognizing one's true nature, what happens after death is not relevant. I don't hold any beliefs regarding death.

Oh, then I wonder: if you think that the afterlife is knowable but irrelevant, then what does it mean to be "dedicated to recognizing one's true nature"?

And why do you care about consensus, since the truth of what happens after death is knowable, but irrelevant? Why do you even spend time posting in this thread about the irrelevant question of death?

[Federica]

Actually Materialism does not imply that death is the end. If we're assuming that random processes somehow create the individualized consciousness
we each seem to be then why couldn't those random processes create us again? Where is the law that says an individualized consciousness is a one shot deal? As a matter of fact in a random universe I should exist in more than one place at a time simultaneously!

I exist, end, then exist again. It would be subjective eternity. The fact that I might forget the specifics of my identity between incarnations means nothing.

There seems to be a generous amount of arbitrary assumptions in your statements, tjssailor! I would like to ask: don't you ever get a sense of extreme arbitrariness of the conception you are depicting in these words?
Do you think there's no other way than formulating a preferred conception and floating away with it in the black sea of consciousness?

[tjssailor]

Fredrica
What specifically is arbitrary?
I'm merely pointing out aspects of the implications of materialism that I don't generally see addressed.

[lorenzop]

Oh, then I wonder: if you think that the afterlife is knowable but irrelevant, then what does it mean to be "dedicated to recognizing one's true nature"?

And why do you care about consensus, since the truth of what happens after death is knowable, but irrelevant? Why do you even spend time posting in this thread about the irrelevant question of death?

I don't have any insights re after-death, and there does not appear to be a pool of experts in agreement in the subject. I can still assume that what happens after death is knowable.

Re "dedicated to recognizing one's true nature" - - there's a wide range of possible paths and approaches , so I'll leave this statement open ended.
If an individual is on a Christian\Buddhist\etc. path, and making progress, there should be no concern or fear of death.
Re 'progress', one should be on a path with guideposts and indicators of success. The major traditions have literature that details what being on the path means, and what success means.

[AshvinP]

Oh, then I wonder: if you think that the afterlife is knowable but irrelevant, then what does it mean to be "dedicated to recognizing one's true nature"?

And why do you care about consensus, since the truth of what happens after death is knowable, but irrelevant? Why do you even spend time posting in this thread about the irrelevant question of death?

I don't have any insights re after-death, and there does not appear to be a pool of experts in agreement in the subject. I can still assume that what happens after death is knowable.

Re "dedicated to recognizing one's true nature" - - there's a wide range of possible paths and approaches , so I'll leave this statement open ended.
If an individual is on a Christian\Buddhist\etc. path, and making progress, there should be no concern or fear of death.
Re 'progress', one should be on a path with guideposts and indicators of success. The major traditions have literature that details what being on the path means, and what success means.

I'm curious, Lorenzo, if the stages that happen after death are knowable, what would possibly convince you that you have encountered this knowledge? Clearly, a well-reasoned phenomenology of spiritual activity doesn't hold any weight for you. It's probably fair to say you don't imagine such a thing could even be related to the question of death.

And I don't think any 'pool of experts' is going to convince you, either, nor should it. I mean, what would the experts be presenting you? Logical arguments about the nature of death and how it's continuous with life don't cut it for you and neither would claims to the first-person experience of stages after death, such as we get across the board of esoteric science. So what else could it be? Is there anything short of your own conscious experience of death that would give you confidence that someone else knows something about it you don't already know?