KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by AshvinP »

Lou Gold wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:15 pm I love Vivaldi. The Winter music surely aligns with the text. I wonder, would you have recognized the icy winter simply from the music or did you need it augmented by the name and text?

I also wonder in you have actually listened in full to what Collier says about his process or are you projecting a more generalized notion of popular music? Do you have any feeling that he is part of a paradigm shift from me to we and/or a fuller individual participation that is less elitist?

I think the music certainly embeds the archetypal soul-gesture of Winter and could be identified as such without any labels or text, as could the other seasons in his cycle.

Lou, there is a huge gap in our standards for what the creative human spirit is capable of. The Paradigm Shift happened 2,000 years ago and, about 120 years ago, a critical imaginative stage of this Shift began unfolding. We should be clear that the Shift is not a result of Earthly human deeds in the last few years and decades but rather the expression of archetypal beings undergoing their own evolution. These beings incarnate in our Earthly life of thinking, feeling, and willing, and therefore their evolution also translates into the development of higher human faculties. Through the imaginative and higher faculties currently unfolding, the human spirit can begin participating in artistically rendering the spacetime flow in which Collier and everyone else unfold their localized artistic philosophies and deeds.

I know a few people on this forum, and perhaps you are one of them, feel that these suggestions are absolutely bonkers. That's no problem. It is healthy to admit such sentiments once in a while since all too often people pretend to be 'understanding and accepting' of spiritual realities when they have neither understood nor accepted. At the same time, though, I would ask you to put aside whether this is 'true' and simply imagine what reality would be like if it were true. That would mean thinking individuals at this stage of evolution could begin working with departed souls and archetypal beings to artistically fashion the very flow of perceptual reality across all scales of existence. Indeed, it would mean there are already human beings doing just that, although not advertising their wisdom and deeds on YouTube. This is the very same work we are doing across the threshold of death.

Now switch from that vision to what Collier is managing to do in his Ted talks and concerts, and we get a sense of this huge gap between what we are both speaking about, respectively. Sure, he is part of the centuries- and millennia-long Paradigm Shift simply by being a conscious and thinking human being. He has perhaps reaped some more of the fruits of this imaginative unfolding than the average human being, although certainly not as much as those beings aesthetically structuring the spacetime flow according to the highest moral ideals. Most importantly, we can all become these latter beings to some extent - we don't need great genes, a 'lucky' inheritance, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, tons of money, or anything similar. We only need a thoughtful interest in the perceptual world (outer and inner), a noble ambition, and a sacrificial love for humanity.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:31 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:15 pm I love Vivaldi. The Winter music surely aligns with the text. I wonder, would you have recognized the icy winter simply from the music or did you need it augmented by the name and text?

I also wonder in you have actually listened in full to what Collier says about his process or are you projecting a more generalized notion of popular music? Do you have any feeling that he is part of a paradigm shift from me to we and/or a fuller individual participation that is less elitist?

I think the music certainly embeds the archetypal soul-gesture of Winter and could be identified as such without any labels or text, as could the other seasons in his cycle.

Lou, there is a huge gap in our standards for what the creative human spirit is capable of. The Paradigm Shift happened 2,000 years ago and, about 120 years ago, a critical imaginative stage of this Shift began unfolding. We should be clear that the Shift is not a result of Earthly human deeds in the last few years and decades but rather the expression of archetypal beings undergoing their own evolution. These beings incarnate in our Earthly life of thinking, feeling, and willing, and therefore their evolution also translates into the development of higher human faculties. Through the imaginative and higher faculties currently unfolding, the human spirit can begin participating in artistically rendering the spacetime flow in which Collier and everyone else unfold their localized artistic philosophies and deeds.

I know a few people on this forum, and perhaps you are one of them, feel that these suggestions are absolutely bonkers. That's no problem. It is healthy to admit such sentiments once in a while since all too often people pretend to be 'understanding and accepting' of spiritual realities when they have neither understood nor accepted. At the same time, though, I would ask you to put aside whether this is 'true' and simply imagine what reality would be like if it were true. That would mean thinking individuals at this stage of evolution could begin working with departed souls and archetypal beings to artistically fashion the very flow of perceptual reality across all scales of existence. Indeed, it would mean there are already human beings doing just that, although not advertising their wisdom and deeds on YouTube. This is the very same work we are doing across the threshold of death.

Now switch from that vision to what Collier is managing to do in his Ted talks and concerts, and we get a sense of this huge gap between what we are both speaking about, respectively. Sure, he is part of the centuries- and millennia-long Paradigm Shift simply by being a conscious and thinking human being. He has perhaps reaped some more of the fruits of this imaginative unfolding than the average human being, although certainly not as much as those beings aesthetically structuring the spacetime flow according to the highest moral ideals. Most importantly, we can all become these latter beings to some extent - we don't need great genes, a 'lucky' inheritance, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, tons of money, or anything similar. We only need a thoughtful interest in the perceptual world (outer and inner), a noble ambition, and a sacrificial love for humanity.
Ashvin,

I'm not sure if you've listened to the two non-performance podcasts where JC expresses his views of his process. Up to you, of course, but I actually thought you might find some of it interesting.

Can I imagine, "That would mean thinking individuals at this stage of evolution could begin working with departed souls and archetypal beings to artistically fashion the very flow of perceptual reality across all scales of existence. ... etc. ??? Yes, I can because to some extent I already do so. However, I've been instructed that at least for now it's better to work anonymously. I also don't feel that there is yet a safe bridge for deep communication between our paths for creative dialogue to arise above dualist debate. I say this in a spirit of confession of limitations, not as a criticism.

Just in passing, even though I grew up in a region of cold winters, snow and ice, I'm not sure I grok a"the archetypal soul-gesture of Winter" but I like Vivaldi.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Lou Gold »

Hey Ashvin, I can't resist.

In the previous podcasts he says many things relevant to your statement We only need a thoughtful interest in the perceptual world (outer and inner), a noble ambition, and a sacrificial love for humanity. and I think affirming of it.

In the video below he demonstrates his thinking process about music and feeling. You may find it interesting even though he's not thinking about disincarnate entities or other levels of existence.

Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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AshvinP
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

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Lou Gold wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 2:27 am Ashvin,

I'm not sure if you've listened to the two non-performance podcasts where JC expresses his views of his process. Up to you, of course, but I actually thought you might find some of it interesting.

Can I imagine, "That would mean thinking individuals at this stage of evolution could begin working with departed souls and archetypal beings to artistically fashion the very flow of perceptual reality across all scales of existence. ... etc. ??? Yes, I can because to some extent I already do so. However, I've been instructed that at least for now it's better to work anonymously. I also don't feel that there is yet a safe bridge for deep communication between our paths for creative dialogue to arise above dualist debate. I say this in a spirit of confession of limitations, not as a criticism.

Just in passing, even though I grew up in a region of cold winters, snow and ice, I'm not sure I grok a"the archetypal soul-gesture of Winter" but I like Vivaldi.

Lou, I simply can't imagine the departed souls and archetypal beings inspiring the thought, 'even though I am working on artistically shaping the spacetime flow and every individual can grow into this same work, and I am on a forum dedicated to discussing exactly that process, it is better to work anonymously and redirect focus to Jacob Collier's artistic philosophy and deeds as examples of the Paradigm Shift.' They must be huge Collier fans to work against their own intents for humanity's spiritual evolution in that way :)

When we grow into conscious dialogue with the archetypal beings, the bridge for communication develops of its own accord, because these beings are the intuitive, inspired, and imaginative sources of our thoughts (and feelings/deeds). It is exactly their intent that we should find ever-new ways of condensing our intuitive orientation into precise, imaginative language so greater spheres of beings can directly participate in the creative evolutionary process.

What we experience as the 'seasons' are also their intuitive soul-gestures. The ideas and moods we associate with these seasons are the shadowy experiences of living beings and their soul-spiritual activity.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

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Ashvin,

Are there a lot of things you can't imagine? Speaking for myself, there is much that my colleagues and mentors (incarnate and disincarnate) already do that fits your aspirational model and those of other traditions, which I say with humility because I'm but a child in the vastness of the great mysteriousness. You ask if I can just imagine the truth of your aspiration? Of course I can. I see it in others as well. Yes, I see a diversity. Because I was trained in critical analysis I must ask "whose eye is the log in?" These are questions we all must ask. Pride and false prophets will continue to challenge all of us. I just hope we can see and share more and more of the truth, beauty and goodness that already exists in our weird, wild, world (www) along with so much that seems terrifyingly false and ugly.

You are not impressed by Collier. So be it. He is quite controversial. Geniuses generally are. So are folks who see great truths arising from children and common folk. Perhaps we can agree that our common great teacher is also quite controversial. Perhaps controversy is part of it. Perhaps sharing lovely visions is also part of the process. Here's a recent share from a spiritual colleague:

I saw you sitting in the sand
Looking serenely to the sweet sea
I listened to you with a song in my mind
All content listening to the song

In the melody the mermaids chose
The children played
the birds flew
With joy in the immensity

At the same moment I felt
the strong beat of your heart
That throbbed as the wind blew
And on your face it played with gratitude

I'm with you, but you don't see me
I'm by your side, in every meadow
Do you hear my voice? Are you so far away?
Where does time take us right now?

Close your eyes and cross your being
Aim inside yourself and see the spiral
That swirls with beams of light
That leads us to a portal

It's morning, the breeze taps
At the window, I'm waiting for you
Outside, looking at you again
Your beautiful smile, offering that morning

The bell tolls, hear the voice on the horizon
that comes far from that mountain
I'm calling you to go back to the portal
Close your eyes and focus on the spiral

The beams of light that lead you
By the universal mystery
Open your eyes to the dusk
Calm at sea, the sun will hide

I am together with you again
On this ground, on this land
In this forest, in this sea,
In this river, in this place
Last edited by Lou Gold on Tue Jan 30, 2024 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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AshvinP
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

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Lou Gold wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 7:48 am Hey Ashvin, I can't resist.

In the previous podcasts he says many things relevant to your statement We only need a thoughtful interest in the perceptual world (outer and inner), a noble ambition, and a sacrificial love for humanity. and I think affirming of it.

In the video below he demonstrates his thinking process about music and feeling. You may find it interesting even though he's not thinking about disincarnate entities or other levels of existence.

Lou, with respect to this video, in the previous comment I wrote:

It is exactly their intent that we should find ever-new ways of condensing our intuitive orientation into precise, imaginative language so greater spheres of beings can directly participate in the creative evolutionary process.

Collier is condensing his real-time intuitive orientation to the varying emotional states into tones via piano. Let's say we neither have a piano nor the physical ability to play an instrument (perhaps we have really bad arthritis). What is still available for us to condense our intuitive orientation to the 'emotional' structure of reality into manifest perceptions that can give our intuitive orientation more refined meaning and be shared with others?

This is the whole point - the 'keyboard' of our thinking is always available, unlike the physical piano, and can even be reimagined and redesigned in real-time to suit the tasks of our intuitive activity. We aren't stuck with fixed constraints that limit the potential of what can be impressed through our imagination. Our thinking keyboard can become an ever-more perfect instrument to express our aesthetic intuitions of reality, even if we are expressing them only to ourselves to begin with.

We don't need to only sit around passively watching and admiring other people and their fascinating abilities (probably growing more subconsciously resentful without realizing it). We don't need to idolize abilities that reflect the refinement of what thinking has already accomplished. Instead, we can actively participate in manifesting new horizons of thinking potential that will serve the World for ages to come. Anyone can decide for themselves what sort of aesthetic and moral tasks they are interested in pursuing - those chained to the past or those manifesting the future.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:51 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 7:48 am Hey Ashvin, I can't resist.

In the previous podcasts he says many things relevant to your statement We only need a thoughtful interest in the perceptual world (outer and inner), a noble ambition, and a sacrificial love for humanity. and I think affirming of it.

In the video below he demonstrates his thinking process about music and feeling. You may find it interesting even though he's not thinking about disincarnate entities or other levels of existence.

Lou, with respect to this video, in the previous comment I wrote:

It is exactly their intent that we should find ever-new ways of condensing our intuitive orientation into precise, imaginative language so greater spheres of beings can directly participate in the creative evolutionary process.

Collier is condensing his real-time intuitive orientation to the varying emotional states into tones via piano. Let's say we neither have a piano nor the physical ability to play an instrument (perhaps we have really bad arthritis). What is still available for us to condense our intuitive orientation to the 'emotional' structure of reality into manifest perceptions that can give our intuitive orientation more refined meaning and be shared with others?

This is the whole point - the 'keyboard' of our thinking is always available, unlike the physical piano, and can even be reimagined and redesigned in real-time to suit the tasks of our intuitive activity. We aren't stuck with fixed constraints that limit the potential of what can be impressed through our imagination. Our thinking keyboard can become an ever-more perfect instrument to express our aesthetic intuitions of reality, even if we are expressing them only to ourselves to begin with.

We don't need to only sit around passively watching and admiring other people and their fascinating abilities (probably growing more subconsciously resentful without realizing it). We don't need to idolize abilities that reflect the refinement of what thinking has already accomplished. Instead, we can actively participate in manifesting new horizons of thinking potential that will serve the World for ages to come. Anyone can decide for themselves what sort of aesthetic and moral tasks they are interested in pursuing - those chained to the past or those manifesting the future.
Ashvin,

Yes, this podcast is clearly 'shop talk' for specialists and therefore elitist. I thought you might enjoy it, not as a fellow musician but as a very thoughtful analytical guy who would enjoy seeing an expert translate words into musical chords. If you are interested in his views toward more generalized non-expert participation, he addresses this in the other two podcasts, which I thought you might enjoy. They are lengthy but quite rich.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
lorenzop
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by lorenzop »

Ashwin, could you imagine or describe a thought experiment, even if just in principle, how to measure or detect the influence of archetypal beings?
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AshvinP
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

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lorenzop wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:09 pm Ashwin, could you imagine or describe a thought experiment, even if just in principle, how to measure or detect the influence of archetypal beings?

For that to be done, Lorenzo, we first have to be willing to explore the reality of our purely qualitative life. What is your view on the fundamental emotions of gratitude, love, reverence, and so forth? Can these be measured with a Geiger counter? Can they be detected with a brain scan as specific brain states that explain their depth and fullness?

We could ask similarly about the idea, "how to measure or detect the influence of archetypal beings". Can this idea itself be measured and detected through physical instruments? It is in the very life of such ideas that the archetypal influences are to be found. They are to be found in all the contextual factors that led us into the vicinity of thinking about the world through a specifically colored lens and asking questions from that colored perspective.

We have to admit this is very uncomfortable for our normal habits, where we safely remain as a subject over here measuring an object over there. These habits are practically useless for penetrating the ideal life - making the subject the object of its own forces (the forces by which it measures other perceptual content) - so if we try to employ them here it will feel like a dog chasing its own tail. But is that personal limitation a reason to discard the reality of our ideal life, the fact that our ideas and feelings have objective consequences in the state of the World, just like punching someone in the face (which itself is born out of those feelings and ideas)?

Unless we are willing to consider the possibility that there is more to objectively real life than what can be measured and detected with the senses and their technological extensions, we will keep missing this archetypal reality right under our noses. We then climbed on the tree and sawed off the branch on which we were sitting, blaming the tree for not being able to support us. We have obscured the one direction in which the archetypal beings are to be found as living realities because we only want to find them as dead quantities to be measured.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
lorenzop
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by lorenzop »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:09 pm
lorenzop wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:09 pm Ashwin, could you imagine or describe a thought experiment, even if just in principle, how to measure or detect the influence of archetypal beings?

For that to be done, Lorenzo, we first have to be willing to explore the reality of our purely qualitative life. What is your view on the fundamental emotions of gratitude, love, reverence, and so forth? Can these be measured with a Geiger counter? Can they be detected with a brain scan as specific brain states that explain their depth and fullness?

We could ask similarly about the idea, "how to measure or detect the influence of archetypal beings". Can this idea itself be measured and detected through physical instruments? It is in the very life of such ideas that the archetypal influences are to be found. They are to be found in all the contextual factors that led us into the vicinity of thinking about the world through a specifically colored lens and asking questions from that colored perspective.
We can measure\detect (the influence of) emotions of love and gratitude, etc. - - - brain scans, galvanic skin response and similar are performed ad nauseum.
So based on your response, the short answer is that the influences of archetypal beings can be detected\measured by looking to our psychophysiology, detected only in principle if we can't detect this influence at the moment OR are you suggesting the influences of archetypal beings cannot be detected and can only be believed or considered?
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