Symphony

[Federica]

I wrote a whole response to this (within the forum instead of on gmail like I usually do) but I wasn't signed in and then it got erased when I went to post. I don't think I can rewrite it again now, but I see Cleric has posted something in the meantime. For now, I will just share the questions I posed in response to the last part, which is also connected with the RS quote.

Not a problem, naturally there is no necessity or expectation for responses and thank you by the way for your previous replies. An entirely separate, friendly note: this is a somewhat recurring occurrence. I just want to say that.

What makes us individual within the veil of the misalignments? To what extent are we individuals when we are simply the product of our environment, the etched soul pathways (which are entirely interwoven with sensory events) that our thinking-will has awakened into as something entirely given and which now steers its unfoldment? Where do we find our sense of individuality within such a state? 

That's easy. While I am misaligned, I am beyond any doubt not the exclusive product of my environment. I find my sense of individuality on the one hand, in my destiny, in my name. Even if I am not conscious of how these were shaped and what their trajectory is, I know they are uniquely mine - and on the other hand, in my will. Even if it operates from the perspective of a limited aperture, and conditioned by unseen curvatures, there is without any doubt a direction of intents that fights to find realization, there is a quest that encounters both friction and recognition. I don't need to be an Initiate for that. Freedom too is a gradient.

[AshvinP]

I wrote a whole response to this (within the forum instead of on gmail like I usually do) but I wasn't signed in and then it got erased when I went to post. I don't think I can rewrite it again now, but I see Cleric has posted something in the meantime. For now, I will just share the questions I posed in response to the last part, which is also connected with the RS quote.

Not a problem, naturally there is no necessity or expectation for responses and thank you by the way for your previous replies. An entirely separate, friendly note: this is a somewhat recurring occurrence. I just want to say that.

What makes us individual within the veil of the misalignments? To what extent are we individuals when we are simply the product of our environment, the etched soul pathways (which are entirely interwoven with sensory events) that our thinking-will has awakened into as something entirely given and which now steers its unfoldment? Where do we find our sense of individuality within such a state? 

That's easy. While I am misaligned, I am beyond any doubt not the exclusive product of my environment. I find my sense of individuality on the one hand, in my destiny, in my name. Even if I am not conscious of how these were shaped and what their trajectory is, I know they are uniquely mine - and on the other hand, in my will. Even if it operates from the perspective of a limited aperture, and conditioned by unseen curvatures, there is without any doubt a direction of intents that fights to find realization, there is a quest that encounters both friction and recognition. I don't need to be an Initiate for that. Freedom too is a gradient.

Can you just remind me what we are concretely discussing at this point?

Your initial comments sounded as if you realized the sacrificial steps to resist the normal sensory-soul flow (including during non-meditative activity) were necessary to gain intuitive clarity about the intents that fight for realization of ideals, as opposed to the 'will' that only dreams it is fighting for that realization while it is passively flowing along with ingrained habits and preferences. But for you personally, some concrete measures felt rushed and you will only work your way to them much more gradually (again, because you realize they are necessary at some point and cannot be avoided).

Somewhere along the way, it morphed into identifying the whole sacrificial resistance process with 'mortification of earthly existence', 'attacking the sensory spectrum', and so forth. I don't think any such sweeping characterizations can be traced to my reasoning, examples, or what has been discussed on this forum as the modern path of initiation for years. I admit that I take it for granted all these discussions unfold within the context of seeking to journey deeper and deeper down that path, of course acknowledging the realistic flow of life and the creative ways to navigate that flow.

So what if anything is the outstanding issue(s) or misalignment(s) in understanding, also in light of Cleric's post? Is it still unclear how we only understand our individual perspective in so far as we grow ever-more conscious of how it is woven from all the infinite ensembles? And further how we grow more conscious by moving our intuitive activity in novel directions that cut across the grain of the World Groove so there is a need to reflect its existence at higher states of aggregation (imaginative, inspired, intuitive) and thereby refine its intuition for the symphonic flow of reality?

As long as our intuitive movements are faithfully reflected in the sensory spectrum, there is no need for our activity to awaken within the Imaginative space. The higher organs of perception don't need to develop if there is no purpose for their existence. That purpose can only be to further perfect our ideal metamorphoses by becoming more conscious of the elemental to archetypal ensembles that support the whole process and funnel our states toward concrete goals.

[Güney27]

Sorry that I didn't answer the replies.
I did notice them today.
Thank you all for the participation.

I thought about how music will change in the future as evolution progresses.
I think it will become more 'electronic' and a lot more ai generated in the next years.

Maybe music will become a means of communication in far future.
Just speculating...... (:

[Cleric K]

Federica, why the change of outfit?

[Federica]

Federica, why the change of outfit?

The outfit is a present from Ashvin, I'm trying it on

What makes us individual within the veil of the misalignments? To what extent are we individuals when we are simply the product of our environment, the etched soul pathways (which are entirely interwoven with sensory events) that our thinking-will has awakened into as something entirely given and which now steers its unfoldment? Where do we find our sense of individuality within such a state?

That's easy. While I am misaligned, I am beyond any doubt not the exclusive product of my environment. I find my sense of individuality on the one hand, in my destiny, in my name. Even if I am not conscious of how these were shaped and what their trajectory is, I know they are uniquely mine - and on the other hand, in my will. Even if it operates from the perspective of a limited aperture, and conditioned by unseen curvatures, there is without any doubt a direction of intents that fights to find realization, there is a quest that encounters both friction and recognition. I don't need to be an Initiate for that. Freedom too is a gradient.

Can you just remind me what we are concretely discussing at this point?


Your initial comments sounded as if you realized the sacrificial steps to resist the normal sensory-soul flow (including during non-meditative activity) were necessary to gain intuitive clarity about the intents that fight for realization of ideals, as opposed to the 'will' that only dreams it is fighting for that realization while it is passively flowing along with ingrained habits and preferences.

[AshvinP]

Federica, why the change of outfit?

The outfit is a present from Ashvin, I'm trying it on

Federica,

I'm sorry if this comment offended you to the point of changing outfits. I mentioned examples on that thread of how my will is also dreaming about its fight for realization. Probably some of my comments to you here are examples of how it dreams it is doing something out of its own unique agency for the betterment of all while the reality is not so unadulterated and well-intentioned as it imagines. This is a universal situation of modern humanity. It's not intended to be personal to you.

I think it helps sometimes to pause and reflect on how radical what we are speaking of on this forum is, downright crazy from any normal cultural perspective. That our existence is purely spiritual metamorphoses, that we are continuously cycling through modes of consciousness by which we try to refine intuition for its intentional flow, and that our sensory existence is weaved of ideal layers in which we can be spiritually active, just as we are normally active in our thoughts. As Novalis said, if we take such things concretely, we start to realize we are living in a fairy world. Our sensory existence and everything we imagine we know about ourselves through the meditation of the senses, including our feelings and most of our thoughts, really and truly are flowing within a dreamscape structured by unsuspected ideal lines of force.

We just need to honestly confront the reality of this situation as much as possible and that resistant effort by itself will gradually awaken our thinking-will within and through the dreamscape. And by 'confront', I'm sure you know changing outfits won't cut it It is a constant process of refining our intuition for the flow of existence by thinking dispassionately through the ever-expanding facts of experience. You also sensed this right up front:

I know there is a whole chapter in PoF about that. Well, it’s one of the parts I only read once and I have forgotten it. Of course, I should be able to reconstruct that by myself through introspection, but to be honest that’s where the resistance may reside at this point. I am not sure I’m ready to give up the pleasure of listening to music and rest on the sound. So you are perfectly right - I first need to get a better sense of why the sacrifice is needed.

[Cleric K]

The outfit is a present from Ashvin, I'm trying it on

That's easy. While I am misaligned, I am beyond any doubt not the exclusive product of my environment. I find my sense of individuality on the one hand, in my destiny, in my name. Even if I am not conscious of how these were shaped and what their trajectory is, I know they are uniquely mine - and on the other hand, in my will. Even if it operates from the perspective of a limited aperture, and conditioned by unseen curvatures, there is without any doubt a direction of intents that fights to find realization, there is a quest that encounters both friction and recognition. I don't need to be an Initiate for that. Freedom too is a gradient.

Can you just remind me what we are concretely discussing at this point?


Your initial comments sounded as if you realized the sacrificial steps to resist the normal sensory-soul flow (including during non-meditative activity) were necessary to gain intuitive clarity about the intents that fight for realization of ideals, as opposed to the 'will' that only dreams it is fighting for that realization while it is passively flowing along with ingrained habits and preferences.

Beinsa Douno has said something very important: "Don't pass judgment on the unfinished paintings."

The unfinished paintings are each one of us.

I don't think anyone has passed judgments here. I believe there's a simple misunderstanding.

What we all need to cultivate is a certain fluidity and anticipation for the pendulum swings. Many conversations pass through thesis-antithesis-synthesis iterations. For example, the talk about music comprehension was a thesis. You saw something lacking and provided an antithesis, noticing that you see something mortifying. Then the pendulum swung back and Ashvin said that, in such antithesis, it is possible that the needed sacrifices may not be understood. But you took that personally as if he was passing judgment that you're dropping back to the vanity fair of the sensory world. From my reading, this was not the case. And I'm not saying this to defend somebody. If anything, Ashvin is a lawyer so he barely needs someone to defend him

It's just that the pendulum should have continued swinging. The mortification theme would have been worked out.

I remember back in the day, I was reading OMA and it made an impression on me how he often says something and then immediately counterbalances from the other side as if he anticipates how the reader will otherwise swing too far. Our soul body really oscillates in such swings and part of our quest for true inner knowledge is to feel and anticipate these swings.

If the topic was fluidly continued it would have become clear that something is indeed sacrificed but the sensory element of music doesn't disappear. Instead, it becomes even more meaningful, as another language through which the soul expresses.

I believe that we can all fully relate to "Don't pass judgment on the unfinished paintings" and I further believe that we're all more or less fulfilling this rule. So our conversations can be completely above our personal unfinished paintings. The pendulum can gently swing back and forth and in this way it sweeps the soul volumes. In this sense, the swings are even beneficial. If we would all agree on a point and rest in it, nothing would push us off balance such that new soul realms can be swept. Yes, sweeping the ideal volume that we probe with thinking, feels a little different from sweeping the soul volume, which can still feel a little emotional. But in the end, it is all part of the same space of spiritual possibilities that we're gradually unveiling.

[Federica]

Federica, why the change of outfit?

The outfit is a present from Ashvin, I'm trying it on

Federica,

I'm sorry if this comment offended you to the point of changing outfits. I mentioned examples on that thread of how my will is also dreaming about its fight for realization. Probably some of my comments to you here are examples of how it dreams it is doing something out of its own unique agency for the betterment of all while the reality is not so unadulterated and well-intentioned as it imagines. This is a universal situation of modern humanity. It's not intended to be personal to you.

I think it helps sometimes to pause and reflect on how radical what we are speaking of on this forum is, downright crazy from any normal cultural perspective. That our existence is purely spiritual metamorphoses, that we are continuously cycling through modes of consciousness by which we try to refine intuition for its intentional flow, and that our sensory existence is weaved of ideal layers in which we can be spiritually active, just as we are normally active in our thoughts. As Novalis said, if we take such things concretely, we start to realize we are living in a fairy world. Our sensory existence and everything we imagine we know about ourselves through the meditation of the senses, including our feelings and most of our thoughts, really and truly are flowing within a dreamscape structured by unsuspected ideal lines of force.

We just need to honestly confront the reality of this situation as much as possible and that resistant effort by itself will gradually awaken our thinking-will within and through the dreamscape. And by 'confront', I'm sure you know changing outfits won't cut it It is a constant process of refining our intuition for the flow of existence by thinking dispassionately through the ever-expanding facts of experience. You also sensed this right up front:

I know there is a whole chapter in PoF about that. Well, it’s one of the parts I only read once and I have forgotten it. Of course, I should be able to reconstruct that by myself through introspection, but to be honest that’s where the resistance may reside at this point. I am not sure I’m ready to give up the pleasure of listening to music and rest on the sound. So you are perfectly right - I first need to get a better sense of why the sacrifice is needed.

Thanks, Ashvin, but no worries, I am not offended What you thought was already apparent before that post anyway.
To be honest I had some fun changing the outfit . I will respond to your post asap.

[Federica]

Beinsa Douno has said something very important: "Don't pass judgment on the unfinished paintings."

The unfinished paintings are each one of us.

I don't think anyone has passed judgments here. I believe there's a simple misunderstanding.

What we all need to cultivate is a certain fluidity and anticipation for the pendulum swings. Many conversations pass through thesis-antithesis-synthesis iterations. For example, the talk about music comprehension was a thesis. You saw something lacking and provided an antithesis, noticing that you see something mortifying. Then the pendulum swung back and Ashvin said that, in such antithesis, it is possible that the needed sacrifices may not be understood. But you took that personally as if he was passing judgment that you're dropping back to the vanity fair of the sensory world. From my reading, this was not the case. And I'm not saying this to defend somebody. If anything, Ashvin is a lawyer so he barely needs someone to defend him

It's just that the pendulum should have continued swinging. The mortification theme would have been worked out.

I remember back in the day, I was reading OMA and it made an impression on me how he often says something and then immediately counterbalances from the other side as if he anticipates how the reader will otherwise swing too far. Our soul body really oscillates in such swings and part of our quest for true inner knowledge is to feel and anticipate these swings.

If the topic was fluidly continued it would have become clear that something is indeed sacrificed but the sensory element of music doesn't disappear. Instead, it becomes even more meaningful, as another language through which the soul expresses.

I believe that we can all fully relate to "Don't pass judgment on the unfinished paintings" and I further believe that we're all more or less fulfilling this rule. So our conversations can be completely above our personal unfinished paintings. The pendulum can gently swing back and forth and in this way it sweeps the soul volumes. In this sense, the swings are even beneficial. If we would all agree on a point and rest in it, nothing would push us off balance such that new soul realms can be swept. Yes, sweeping the ideal volume that we probe with thinking, feels a little different from sweeping the soul volume, which can still feel a little emotional. But in the end, it is all part of the same space of spiritual possibilities that we're gradually unveiling.

Thank you Cleric, I appreciate the insights here and, as we know, it's true that I tend to take things too personally sometimes, but here it was not the case. I have changed my avatar in a very humorous mood, that I haven't tried to resist - I unfortunately have to admit. If anything, I can say that I know I should have resisted that curvature at least a little

Also, I don't consider the discussion about music a closed one, I am still trying to figure it out. I still hope that it will become clear to me too what is sacrificed and what remains of the sensory element, after something is resisted to let some other sense-free element appear. Don't worry, I'm not done with the mortification theme

By the way, the OMA daily meditation today seems, once again, to resonate with this theme:

Daily Meditation: Friday, March 1, 2024

Human beings - knowing ourselves through matter
"Although they do not know it, human beings are immense. They know themselves in the divine world above; but they must get to know themselves here, too, through the medium of matter, and that is where the difficulty lies. Have you seen a cat playing with its tail? As the cat does not know that the tail is his, he chases it, bites it, and is astonished at the painful result.
You, too, are like a cat: one day, you discover the extremity of your being, here on the physical plane, and not realizing what it is, you give it a bite, and of course you scream because you discover that this trailing tail is a part of you. Our being is spread throughout space*, and one day we will have to get to know who we are. The ‘cat’s tail’ represents our physical body, and now we must work to know ourselves through the matter of our own bodies. This is what makes our lives so difficult, but also so very worth living."

[Cleric K]

I've moved the dialog here, since it stems from this thread.