Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Cleric
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:12 am Right, so it seems to me that, as a practical matter, the spiritual life for many souls will always be mediated through an organization of some form, even including the Anthroposophical Society. For those souls who are not partaking in deep supersensible research, the Society will act much in the same way as an academic or religious organization, giving a firm support structure within a community of like-minded souls. Even for those of us who avoid joining/converting/affiliating with any such organization, for our supersensible knowledge to be planted as a seed in the broader cultural landscape, we will need to utilize the existing institutions to do so, whether in the domain of science, art, or religion. It seems that this is implicit in the very nature of the Anthroposophical-Michaelic impulse as well. For example, why is there no Waldorf University or Waldorf graduate school? After the young soul and mind have been appropriately shaped in keeping with supersensible insight into the developmental stages, the soul must go out and insinuate itself into the wider World of existing institutions, and hopefully begin contributing to their spiritualization in some way. As a practical matter, a double life will be led for some time, just by the fact that we won't be 'casting pearls before swine' at every opportunity. Some aspects of inner experience we will keep quite close to the chest.
I spoke concretely about religious institutions. It is clear that organizations and institutions will be part of the human social structure for a long time. But at the turn of the twentieth century, something new makes its appearance. To understand this, we should bear clearly in mind that religions are tightly related to the threshold of death. There’s revealed knowledge (that cannot be simply gathered from the senses and synthesized by the intellect) which concerns the existence of man beyond birth and death. The role of religion has been to guard and transmit that knowledge, thus giving proper direction of terrestrial life that is aligned with the higher-order curvature (which could only be known of through revelation). Through the impulse of initiatic science, we enter an age where the human being can reach in full consciousness within this life beyond birth and death. For example, Steiner’s Christianity as a Mystical Fact has been precisely an attempt to show that the revealed knowledge of the past can now be reached independently of tradition. We should also be very clear that this new ‘reaching’ doesn’t negate revelation. Every discovery of the initiate is still of the nature of revelation, in the sense that it is not simply an intellectual synthesis of past facts or intuitive guessing. Thus, the inspirations and intuitions are still something that we can only accept to flow within us, from above, through grace. It is not up to our intellectual decision to simply reach out and collect anything we want. Nevertheless, through inner development, we can make ourselves into vessels that are prepared to accommodate these inflows. And most importantly, it is the higher beings’ will to flow into human beings. They want to reveal themselves in the human soul.

In this way, we’re entering an age where this higher knowledge seeks its entry in the human soul, thus what in the past could have been revealed only in exceptional cases should become a reality for the human beings of the new age. And even if not everyone today would experience personally these revelations, the very sense that we're surrounded by them and they knock on our soul's door, already places us differently in the flow of existence. This is where religion and its institutions come in conflict with the age. The Church is opposed to SS not so much because it sees in it an alternative religion that is additional competition on the souls market, but because it has the audacity to claim that it leads the human being to the Sources of their own revelations. If religions are to continue their existence as they are, they need to actively deny that man has reached that stage, just like the Hebrews had to deny the Incarnation if they were to continue expecting the Messiah in the future. And note that this denial is not out of some obvious wickedness. In fact, the religions feel that they are protecting the Truth. In their view, through SS, man has fallen into a great temptation and has become monstrously prideful, to the extent that he believes he can reach individually in the Sources. And just to be clear, it’s not that the religious practices have suddenly become unnecessary for the souls who may need them. It’s the maintaining that the spiritual world is out of reach and human souls can only be guided through the revealed knowledge of the past. It is in this sense that Steiner saw the impossibility of the Church being the carrier of the new impulse (just as BD, who had constant enemies in the face of the Orthodox Church, who actively tried to blacken him and even succeeded at one point putting him in internment).

AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:12 am So in that sense, I don't think 'the plan', from the perspective of VT and Christian Hermeticism at least, is anything super complicated. It's simply trying to sow the seeds of higher spiritual life within the existing institutions of culture, taking opportunities to spiritualize the latter whenever they present themselves, in a strategic and somewhat cautious way. Of course, this should lead to ever-expanding results that become more noticeable in the functioning of such institutions over time. The question for me is how much the existing Church institution can transform in the direction of something more like the Christian Community. It would still maintain a definite structure based on tradition with its concrete rituals, sacraments, and dogma. But can we also imagine gradual leeway entering into this structure such that it becomes more open-roof and souls within it feel like they are free to develop their inner forces further, and that they can openly think and speak about the inner realities, without the threat of excommunication or damnation hanging over them? I suppose Rodriel has been trying to draw our attention to slivers of leeway that are opening up here and there, for example, in the recent post where he pointed out the RCC won't expel souls for their beliefs in reincarnation.
As said, I have nothing against anyone trying to plant the seeds of higher life anywhere, in any institution and organization, including religious. What concerns me is (at least that’s what I get from Rodriel’s view, and not directly from something I’ve read from VT) that the new impulse has to be planted within the RCC, and this is where it needs to grow and flourish. Note the difference. In one case, the impulse grows unhindered and, so to speak, can have ‘missions’ here and there to plant seeds. In the other case, it has to enter the envelope of the RCC and hopefully, gradually push it outwards from within. In other words, the impulse is not simply meant to help the RCC, but it is directly tied to its fate. It is as if it says, “Without the RCC I have no body. I have to enter that body and quietly push it from within, until it becomes flexible enough for the free expression of my inner nature and no longer acts like a hindrance.”

To me, this is truly problematic. The main argument has been that the SS impulse in its raw form is too inaccessible and would leave the majority of the souls behind. But that’s why I reminded that this impulse has already manifested in different forms and no soul has been left without the means to ‘catch the wave’, so to speak. I’m sorry to say, but ‘the plan’ (not about helping others but about the new impulse growing from within the RCC) borders on wishful thinking. And most importantly, it puts the more advanced souls that should secretly work from within, in a continuous waiting mode. Every step is dependent on the RCC catching on. And the main problem is that at its traditional core, the RCC doesn’t want to catch on to anything! This could probably be justified if there were no other alternatives for the religiously oriented souls, but there are. Christ’s hand has reached down for everyone who feels the calling of the new culture. What about those who haven’t heard that call yet? Well, they can follow any tradition they karmically feel tied to, but this should be no reason for everyone else to arrest humanity's development and wait for everyone to make up their minds before moving forward.
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Cleric wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 8:26 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:12 am Right, so it seems to me that, as a practical matter, the spiritual life for many souls will always be mediated through an organization of some form, even including the Anthroposophical Society. For those souls who are not partaking in deep supersensible research, the Society will act much in the same way as an academic or religious organization, giving a firm support structure within a community of like-minded souls. Even for those of us who avoid joining/converting/affiliating with any such organization, for our supersensible knowledge to be planted as a seed in the broader cultural landscape, we will need to utilize the existing institutions to do so, whether in the domain of science, art, or religion. It seems that this is implicit in the very nature of the Anthroposophical-Michaelic impulse as well. For example, why is there no Waldorf University or Waldorf graduate school? After the young soul and mind have been appropriately shaped in keeping with supersensible insight into the developmental stages, the soul must go out and insinuate itself into the wider World of existing institutions, and hopefully begin contributing to their spiritualization in some way. As a practical matter, a double life will be led for some time, just by the fact that we won't be 'casting pearls before swine' at every opportunity. Some aspects of inner experience we will keep quite close to the chest.
I spoke concretely about religious institutions. It is clear that organizations and institutions will be part of the human social structure for a long time. But at the turn of the twentieth century, something new makes its appearance. To understand this, we should bear clearly in mind that religions are tightly related to the threshold of death. There’s revealed knowledge (that cannot be simply gathered from the senses and synthesized by the intellect) which concerns the existence of man beyond birth and death. The role of religion has been to guard and transmit that knowledge, thus giving proper direction of terrestrial life that is aligned with the higher-order curvature (which could only be known of through revelation). Through the impulse of initiatic science, we enter an age where the human being can reach in full consciousness within this life beyond birth and death. For example, Steiner’s Christianity as a Mystical Fact has been precisely an attempt to show that the revealed knowledge of the past can now be reached independently of tradition. We should also be very clear that this new ‘reaching’ doesn’t negate revelation. Every discovery of the initiate is still of the nature of revelation, in the sense that it is not simply an intellectual synthesis of past facts or intuitive guessing. Thus, the inspirations and intuitions are still something that we can only accept to flow within us, from above, through grace. It is not up to our intellectual decision to simply reach out and collect anything we want. Nevertheless, through inner development, we can make ourselves into vessels that are prepared to accommodate these inflows. And most importantly, it is the higher beings’ will to flow into human beings. They want to reveal themselves in the human soul.

In this way, we’re entering an age where this higher knowledge seeks its entry in the human soul, thus what in the past could have been revealed only in exceptional cases should become a reality for the human beings of the new age. And even if not everyone today would experience personally these revelations, the very sense that we're surrounded by them and they knock on our soul's door, already places us differently in the flow of existence. This is where religion and its institutions come in conflict with the age. The Church is opposed to SS not so much because it sees in it an alternative religion that is additional competition on the souls market, but because it has the audacity to claim that it leads the human being to the Sources of their own revelations. If religions are to continue their existence as they are, they need to actively deny that man has reached that stage, just like the Hebrews had to deny the Incarnation if they were to continue expecting the Messiah in the future. And note that this denial is not out of some obvious wickedness. In fact, the religions feel that they are protecting the Truth. In their view, through SS, man has fallen into a great temptation and has become monstrously prideful, to the extent that he believes he can reach individually in the Sources. And just to be clear, it’s not that the religious practices have suddenly become unnecessary for the souls who may need them. It’s the maintaining that the spiritual world is out of reach and human souls can only be guided through the revealed knowledge of the past. It is in this sense that Steiner saw the impossibility of the Church being the carrier of the new impulse (just as BD, who had constant enemies in the face of the Orthodox Church, who actively tried to blacken him and even succeeded at one point putting him in internment).

Yes, but it feels like something is still being missed here. You are describing the poles of our current age, along which the modern soul is stretched, so to speak. That implies that there must exist a gradient between these poles. The new doesn't come in as if we have ascended to the next floor of a building and left the old on the previous, but rather, more of the whole building starts to grow around the current floor. This is a persistent theme of the Gospels as well, that the old and the new are coming into dynamic tension, and the former should seek loving and creative ways of accommodating the latter.

At this stage of evolution, it almost becomes irrelevant to sharply distinguish religious organizations from other organizations. That is why I was focusing on the functions of such organizations, from the perspective of the seeking soul. The fact is that many organizations serve as mediators, guardians, etc., of revealed knowledge of the past for such souls. In a short time, we can also speak of the Society as guarding revealed knowledge of the past, on which souls are dependent for their inner orientation. Yes, it will speak to these souls of the future epochs and their developments, but that will sound almost as nebulous as the 'second coming', the 'millennial kingdom', the 'final judgment', and so on, for those souls who fail to develop direct 'lines of communication' with the spiritual worlds. These non-religious organizations that we feel have moved on from all the shortcomings of the religious ones, will soon be in a similar position to the Churches and therefore in need of spiritual enlivenment if they aren't to rigidify and degenerate completely.

For sure, as long as any institution actively denies the here and now possibilities of the new man, it can't serve as a proper support, let alone the exclusive carrier, of the new Impulse. The Churches have a long way to go in that respect. Yet they aren't going to simply disappear from the face of the Earth any time soon. They will remain central hubs that attract religiously-inclined souls for much of the new age. What good does it serve to ignore this fact or to ignore the opportunities for transforming such hubs from the inside-out? Yes, it often seems difficult to imagine how this will happen. But at the same time, I am often surprised by what I read in the daily news. Things are not unfolding in any strictly linear or predictable way. If we axiomatically rule out all such possibilities from the beginning, then we simply make it more difficult for such institutions to be leveraged in the service of the new man.

(what you say about BD and the Orthodox Church also fits in well with Rodriel's observation/distinction between the latter and the RCC)

Cleric wrote:
AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:12 am So in that sense, I don't think 'the plan', from the perspective of VT and Christian Hermeticism at least, is anything super complicated. It's simply trying to sow the seeds of higher spiritual life within the existing institutions of culture, taking opportunities to spiritualize the latter whenever they present themselves, in a strategic and somewhat cautious way. Of course, this should lead to ever-expanding results that become more noticeable in the functioning of such institutions over time. The question for me is how much the existing Church institution can transform in the direction of something more like the Christian Community. It would still maintain a definite structure based on tradition with its concrete rituals, sacraments, and dogma. But can we also imagine gradual leeway entering into this structure such that it becomes more open-roof and souls within it feel like they are free to develop their inner forces further, and that they can openly think and speak about the inner realities, without the threat of excommunication or damnation hanging over them? I suppose Rodriel has been trying to draw our attention to slivers of leeway that are opening up here and there, for example, in the recent post where he pointed out the RCC won't expel souls for their beliefs in reincarnation.
As said, I have nothing against anyone trying to plant the seeds of higher life anywhere, in any institution and organization, including religious. What concerns me is (at least that’s what I get from Rodriel’s view, and not directly from something I’ve read from VT) that the new impulse has to be planted within the RCC, and this is where it needs to grow and flourish. Note the difference. In one case, the impulse grows unhindered and, so to speak, can have ‘missions’ here and there to plant seeds. In the other case, it has to enter the envelope of the RCC and hopefully, gradually push it outwards from within. In other words, the impulse is not simply meant to help the RCC, but it is directly tied to its fate. It is as if it says, “Without the RCC I have no body. I have to enter that body and quietly push it from within, until it becomes flexible enough for the free expression of my inner nature and no longer acts like a hindrance.”

To me, this is truly problematic. The main argument has been that the SS impulse in its raw form is too inaccessible and would leave the majority of the souls behind. But that’s why I reminded that this impulse has already manifested in different forms and no soul has been left without the means to ‘catch the wave’, so to speak. I’m sorry to say, but ‘the plan’ (not about helping others but about the new impulse growing from within the RCC) borders on wishful thinking. And most importantly, it puts the more advanced souls that should secretly work from within, in a continuous waiting mode. Every step is dependent on the RCC catching on. And the main problem is that at its traditional core, the RCC doesn’t want to catch on to anything! This could probably be justified if there were no other alternatives for the religiously oriented souls, but there are. Christ’s hand has reached down for everyone who feels the calling of the new culture. What about those who haven’t heard that call yet? Well, they can follow any tradition they karmically feel tied to, but this should be no reason for everyone else to arrest humanity's development and wait for everyone to make up their minds before moving forward.

Yes, that is concerning to me as well. I don't see that working out well. If, at this moment, the RCC were to become the sole arbiter of higher revelations and the sole authority of how such revelations should steer the collective life, that would be a tragic event. I don't see that happening, and I certainly don't see that as VT's plan or hope. It simply doesn't make sense to me that such an individuality's plan would be to speak about reincarnation as a fact, on the one hand, and invest all hope in an institution that actively denies this fact, on the other. Now, if VT were to speak about the RCC becoming the 'head' of all science, art, politics, etc., the sole mediator of all esoteric striving, that would be a different story. But I haven't seen any such indications yet. Instead, we can see that he has lent his praise to a soul (Martin) who remained active within both the RCC and Anthroposophy.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 7:03 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:12 am So in that sense, I don't think 'the plan', from the perspective of VT and Christian Hermeticism at least, is anything super complicated. It's simply trying to sow the seeds of higher spiritual life within the existing institutions of culture, taking opportunities to spiritualize the latter whenever they present themselves, in a strategic and somewhat cautious way. Of course, this should lead to ever-expanding results that become more noticeable in the functioning of such institutions over time.
...
The main thing for me is that, regardless of whether the RCC's pliability in this respect is being overestimated, we don't need to see VT's pursuit as something completely at odds with Anthroposophy and the inner work that always needs the mediation of outer institutions to become more widespread and effective in the face of unfolding events.

Doesn't this risk constituting a projection onto Tomberg's hermeticism of your own desires and views, also given that the other day, when I asked you what you thought the Catholic project from Tomberg's perspective is, you answered: “That still remains mostly a mystery to me"? It is noteworthy that such a scenario for VT's plan happens to deeply accommodate a perspective that coincides with your long-term background, long-term preferences, long-term views on cultural institutions and the rule of law. Perhaps you are now drawing these considerations from your unbiased soul, but isn't it still a strange coincidence that your unbiased self now suddenly finds out (hours after calling it a mystery) that just that one scenario is, of course, the most likely?

Of course, it remains a mystery, as do the karmic missions of all individualities on the front lines of Earthly evolution. The mystery is how the spiritualization of the cultural landscape, including the Churches, will be accomplished. That is what I said in my previous answer to you.

Federica wrote:How not to see this idea other than as plainly naive? You are overlooking the intrinsically political structure of the RCC. Yet, only a few weeks ago, under more neutral overall soul conditions, you were in a very different mood - in what I would call the right mood, in line with Steiner’s expressed vision of community and circle for the future. Whilst now, it seems to me, you are overpowered by the strong pull of the RCC-beings.



If your stance is that such institutional structures are inherently incapable of any transformation, pliability, leeway, etc., then yes, we live in a sad world indeed, and probably all Christian esoteric striving is naivety upon naivety.

Federica wrote:
AshvinP wrote: Sat Sep 27, 2025 1:15 pmI'd like to imagine that in the near future, the digital space will be utilized more and more as a projection of the 'congregation' of spirit-seeking souls that is taking shape in the supersensible domain, as we try to do here. What we work out through our independent yet shared intuitive process can be continued in the Earthly domain through this space, with the help of the most varied illustrations, metaphors, examples, and lines of reasoning, and hopefully this Impulse will radiate out to other cultural spaces as well. Yet we can't expect such hopes to actualize unless we faithfully invest in the small, humble, and seemingly trivial steps, where a few souls hash out and refine their intuitions for these inner dynamics and mutually support each other in triangulating such intuitions.
[/color]
Do you still like to imagine that?

Yes. I never imagined it would or should be the only 'congregation', but the digital space will obviously remain as a critical hub for seeking souls and hopefully it will be utilized as we do here.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:50 pm If, at this moment, the RCC were to become the sole arbiter of higher revelations and the sole authority of how such revelations should steer the collective life, that would be a tragic event. I don't see that happening, and I certainly don't see that as VT's plan or hope.

You are overlooking what I quoted before from MoT. And this is in a published book. VT implores the Unknown Friends to ONLY rely on the RCC and no other organizations, associations, or societies whatsoever. Or is there perhaps an hermetic reading of these words that would reverse the meaning by 180 degrees? Rodriel may tell us.

Tomberg wrote:Dear Unknown Friend—you who are reading these lines written in 1965, after nearly fifty years of endeavour and experience in the domain of Hermeticism—I beg you not to regard what is written here as a simple wish made for the progression of Hermetic historicism, but as a testament making you who read these lines a trustee of such a task— if you accept. Therefore, please do all that you judge appropriate, but one thing I implore you not to do: to found an organisation, an association, a society or an order which would take charge of that. For the tradition lives not thanks to organisations, but in spite of them. One should content oneself purely and simply with friendship in order to preserve the life of a tradition; it should not be entrusted to the care of the embalmers and mummifiers par excellence that organisations are, save for the one founded by Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 1:25 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:50 pm If, at this moment, the RCC were to become the sole arbiter of higher revelations and the sole authority of how such revelations should steer the collective life, that would be a tragic event. I don't see that happening, and I certainly don't see that as VT's plan or hope.

You are overlooking what I quoted before from MoT. And this is in a published book. VT implores the Unknown Friends to ONLY rely on the RCC and no other organizations, associations, or societies whatsoever. Or is there perhaps an hermetic reading of these words that would reverse the meaning by 180 degrees? Rodriel may tell us.

Tomberg wrote:Dear Unknown Friend—you who are reading these lines written in 1965, after nearly fifty years of endeavour and experience in the domain of Hermeticism—I beg you not to regard what is written here as a simple wish made for the progression of Hermetic historicism, but as a testament making you who read these lines a trustee of such a task— if you accept. Therefore, please do all that you judge appropriate, but one thing I implore you not to do: to found an organisation, an association, a society or an order which would take charge of that. For the tradition lives not thanks to organisations, but in spite of them. One should content oneself purely and simply with friendship in order to preserve the life of a tradition; it should not be entrusted to the care of the embalmers and mummifiers par excellence that organisations are, save for the one founded by Jesus Christ.

Right, so let's appreciate that the quote, up until "save for that founded by Jesus Christ", is practically 100% aligned with what you and Cleric have been expressing as a concern about individual souls, who are trustees of the esoteric tradition and its further development within the Christ ideal, submitting that task to the rigid constraints of an organizational authority. We shouldn't lightly ignore this aspect of VT's stance.

Then the question is, what precisely is the meaning of "save for that founded by Jesus Christ"? Of course, such a question can only be answered through contemplating VT's much wider context of work and life. Does it mean that, if you have become a trustee of the Hermetic task (and if you come to the point where you are contemplating the letters, you are invited to become such a trustee), you should unconditionally submit your conscience and knowing process to the rigid constraints of the Church? That this is the only possible way forward for the Christian Hermeticist? I see no reason why it must be interpreted that way. I do see reasons from the wider context why it could be more in the sense of, "the soul may voluntarily desire to entrust the moral dimension of its striving to the care of that organization founded by Christ, because it will see, in complete clarity, that the cultus of this organization is entirely complementary to that striving."

As an example:

"Do not be scandalized, dear Unknown Friend, by the fact that you find yourself confronted with the Rosary prayer in a Hermetic meditation on the 18th Arcanum of the Tarot - the Arcanum which teaches how to surmount "eclipsed lunar intelligence". Esotericism is not a collection of extraordinary and unknown things, but rather it is, above all, a less ordinary and less known way of seeing ordinary and known things - of seeing their profundity. And the rosary prayer, wholly exoteric and "known to satiety" as it is, reveals profound truths of spiritual life, including that of the union of prayer of the soul and spiritual prayer. It is, moreover, closely related to the theme of the 18th Arcanum of the Tarot, the Arcanum of knowing how to pass from intelligence eclipsed by terrestrial technicality to intelligence illuminated by the spiritual sun, i.e., to intuition. In other words, the leap to which Henri Bergson invites our intelligence can be made by saying the rosary prayer. The opinion of a Capuchin friar? It could be, but why can't a Capuchin friar be right, sometimes at least?

Be that as it may, I declare openly that practical Hermeticism is above all the desire and capacity to learn from everyone and everything, and that "knowing better" is its coffin.

"Knowing better" - the state of consciousness which is present when one has made a review of the totality of efforts made in the past and the results obtained from them by observing the fixed rules of the game - plunges intelligence into a pond of stagnant water like with an exact geometrical border which encloses it and makes it retreat, like a crayfish, in the face of all that is new and demands creative effort."
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 5:59 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Wed Aug 20, 2025 4:23 pm A sincere and full confession can and should open one's eyes to the deeply problematic and incongruous situation of one's life in the "mechanistic and habituated modern environment." This very awakening, even if fleeting, is a doorway toward higher levels of spiritual development. You might then say, "that's all well and good, but then where is the apparatus for helping that soul along that path of higher spiritual development? The Church has nothing of the sort on offer." Ah, but the liturgy is right there. The Gospels are right there. These grab hold of the partially awakened soul and begin to work imaginatively into the mechanized thought life. The very serious question, though, becomes: is this process in and of itself sufficient to take the soul all the way, to lead humanity into the Age? Peter himself asked the same question. "Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper [...] ? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?" To which the Lord replied, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." So we see that John is needed! But John is the one who underwent the 4 day death-sleep and was raised, thereafter following after Peter into the tomb. Peter needn't pay much mind to John, as per the direct instruction of Christ Jesus. He is there working behind the scenes. So to those souls within the Church who have been awakened to the discordance of our time and been thus spurred toward spiritual development through Peter, one can offer the sincere hope that they find themselves increasingly in the company of John who will assist them and fortify them on their spiritual ascent. Those who fancy themselves Lazarus-John's disciples can decide whether or not this path of sacrifice, the one modeled by Tomberg-unknown, is a worthy one.

Rodriel,
What is the "Age" you speak of above? I have in mind the possibility that Tomberg thought that the Consciosuness Soul impulse had failed, and I have in mind this:
Cleric wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 10:31 am Through the communicative external means, we can at most lead another soul to the threshold of the inner chamber (such as by MoT). But from thence, the soul begins to learn its uniquely personal language in which the Logos expresses itself. The hope is that someday, we'll grow beyond the inner Tower of Babel, and will meet each other in the future, at even greater depth, in a purely spiritual communion. In the meantime, the ideal of this future meeting in the Logos can only be maintained by a specifically tailored social structure. Without it, chaos will quickly issue, because souls can drift away, and because by definition they cannot share anything about their inner trajectories, there's no way to synchronize them either. Thus, a higher authority is needed, which is trusted to cohere the general direction in which the souls are following their personal inspirations. It's like saying: "I cannot share my innermost experiences with you, but we can participate together in the common rituals. Hopefully, this would ensure a common direction of our innermost lives."
In the Gospels, the "Age to Come," sometimes shortened to "The Age" (and in all cases some rendering of the word aeon), refers to various eschatological horizons: the 6th post-Atlantean cultural age, the 6th earth epoch, or future Jupiter. Future Jupiter is always more or less implicit in each specific reference, and this is how I am using the term. The era of the Consciousness Soul is interesting, because it is really the transition from 4th era to the 6th, and so is a kind of cup reaching up to the substantiality of the Spirit Self. In this sense, the 5th cultural age is not an apocalyptic one and so can only very loosely be connected to what the Gospels point to as "The Age."
Federica wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 5:59 pm More generally, I would like to ask you: what is the source(s) of your views on Tomberg? Is it the fruit of your personal study and research only, or is it through or in collaboration with the views of other thinkers or biographers as well? Please don't take offense. I am asking not out of mere curiosity, but because I am trying to understand how you relate to the question of the 'double game' - the idea that a double path of development is necessary. This seems fondamental to me. As Cleric said, the idea of facilitating an easier path for followers of Peter, induces a peculiar inner stance in the soul of the 'knower' who intends to bring about such plan, through the "Catholic project". To me this stance appears, to say the least, unsustainable for the soul, and incompatible with not only spiritual science, but any genuine spiritual path. But I have not seen this side of the question (the first person perspective of the advocate of the Catholic project) considered in your posts so far, if I'm not mistaken. So I am trying to understand how this plan can feel from your perspective, and how these notions arise that you progressively bring to our consideration. If it's not too personal a question, of course.
I don't take offense to this question at all; it is a reasonable one. The factors contributing to my views on Tomberg have been manifold but mostly solitary at this point, meaning there is no group work being done. Like I mentioned earlier, this thread has been my first opportunity to discuss these things. In terms of personal study and research, I have read most of Tomberg's work at this point and multiple biographies. It wasn't until reading Lazarus, Come Forth that I started to clearly see the "veiled message" that runs throughout his entire post-Anthroposophical corpus. Now that I am reading his first Catholic work on jurisprudence, I'm seeing the pieces come together even better. To be completely transparent, in my research I have not encountered anyone else pointing to the "veiled message." Take that however you will.

Now, I don't find it prudent to talk very much about my personal spiritual life, but I can tell you a few things about my experience with the "dual path" or "double game." I grew up Roman Catholic but like many people today rejected my faith in my youth, becoming a typical scientifically minded agnostic, but one with an intense interest in consciousness (hence my eventual foray into the work of Bernardo Kastrup). In my late teens, I received a series of spiritual inspirations which I could not ignore and which led me to explore Eastern religion (Buddhism and Hinduism mostly). One of the inspirations was extremely clear, and I will share it with you because of its special relevance. It was imparted to me that "the deepest cosmic secrets are contained in the flowering plants." This was accompanied by a very clear imagination. I knew not what this meant, but only that it was something I absolutely needed to pursue. I spent over a decade pondering this statement from different angles but was never able to get beyond a certain sensible wall. Additionally I became a quite self-centered person, and my life more or less fell apart. I began looking into Steiner, and while it seemed completely fantastic there were elements of it that seemed promising. I then experienced an extreme health crisis and threw a "Hail Mary," returning somewhat desperately to a practice of prayer that I had abandoned in my youth. The details after this point are too personal to discuss in full, but suffice it to say that during one particular instance the inspiration from over a decade earlier returned, and this time it was filled with the light of the Spiritual Sun. I instantly knew that this awakening had only been made possible by my spiritual scientific studies and through practicing the exercises in HTKHW. And oddly it was also imparted to me that I must re-enter the Catholic Church. These two realizations seemed completely incongruous to me at the time, but they of course began to make more sense after discovering Tomberg.

The process of re-entering the Church while pursuing spiritual science was uncomfortable. I returned to find everything that I remembered from before, including a large majority of fellow churchgoers with seemingly little interest in the mysteries of existence. In other words, I found the congregation absolutely saturated with "Luke souls," so to speak -- simple people for whom the soul-assuaging Gospel of Luke is really the center of religious life. However, I also began to see very clearly how the depth axis is mysteriously contained in the exoteric traditions. When attending Mass I was experiencing this depth axis, but at the same time I knew that others were having a different, though perhaps still profound, experience. (Others of course were just "fulfilling their obligation.") But there was something chastening and humbling about the situation. In submitting my communications and activities to the strictures of dogma, I found that I had to expend extra effort and take more time to investigate spiritual scientific insights from all angles. This allowed the insights themselves to germinate more fully, and once they were ready to communicate, they had to then pass through the additional moral layer of considering what kind of soil they would be falling on. The task was to expose certain elements of spiritual reality to the extent that a person was open to and ready to hear them, going deeper than what is comfortable but leaving certain things that would otherwise lead to a total rejection mysterious. I have found the story Samaritan Woman from the Gospel of John very effective in this regard. Additionally, this situation, arising from the dogmatic constraints of the Church, has made it more possible for me to live fully in others -- to silence my own soul life in order to let the soul of another speak. So the deference to Peter's authority has actually aided my spiritual scientific development, not hindered it. Of course we should always seek to do everything for the benefit of others, and in this regard we should regard the John stream in precisely this way. But it is also the case that John benefits from Peter.

Since returning to Church life, I have also come to notice all the little "openings to the spirit" that I've been referring to throughout this exchange. Relative to the very long history of the Church, these are quite rapidly developing openings that I can interpret as nothing less than a sign that the time for the spiraling together of Peter and John is now. I will likely continue on this path alone if other souls don't find purchase in it. The affirmation of Tomberg's work can of course be considered as a kind of positive reinforcement for wishful thinking on my part. That would certainly be a reasonable assessment. But I do think the facts of the matter point to something quite deep and mysterious at play.
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 8:24 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:01 pm Statements like "spiritual science never existed" and the like are simply not meant to be read as statements of fact. Every such statement points directly back to the center of all Tomberg's activities: the Lazarus-John mystery. The above statement is to be read: "When Lazarus was raised as the unnamed beloved disciple, it was as if he never existed. Like Lazarus, Rudolf Steiner and his impulse have radiated their life forces out into the word such that the outer form could no longer be held together. These concentrated life forces were a source of death for their inaugurator who willingly took this death upon himself in order that it would become a spring of life for the future. Now come, let us enter this mill of death and make it our own! And may it be to the glory of the Lord!" Did Martin take Tomberg's personal comments this way? That's hard to tell from his book, to be honest. Anyway, you seem to be more or less on board with this. Just figured I'd elaborate this crucial point once more in hopes that it will land with others here.


I see. If we then consider the interpretation of the mill of death that you propose, I guess we must now read differently Tomberg's statement about having shed mid-life his old self, and wishing another name for his new self. We have to see it no longer as a sign of clear rupture with Anthroposophy, but as the symbol of a resurrection. Then, what is the relation between VT - the risen Steiner - anonymous author of MoT - the resurrection of Anthroposophy - on the one hand, and Steiner's continued work from beyond the threshold and from his future reincarnations, on the other?

Are these now dissolved in the new embodiment of Steiner/Spiritual Science in the Lazarus-John stream brought about by Tomberg and materialized in the Catholic project, or has a sort of splitting of individuality taken place? Has this resurrection put a stop to future incarnations of the individuality of Rudolf Steiner, or how are these going to proceed? And what about the view that Steiner is a member of the White Lodge? Also, what about the view that Steiner's premature death is the achievement of adversarial forces having worked all throughout his life, from the erroneous registration of his name and date of birth, all the way to the failed attack in Munich, poisoning, burning of the Gotheanum, illness, and departure?

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Sat Sep 27, 2025 6:13 pm Rudolf Steiner and his gift of Anthroposophy was thus a kind of Lazarus - a public spectacle which had to die to itself and be raised anonymously, i.e. in the private confines of personal certainty - through "anonymous friends" (Johns) who let Peter go first into the tomb. Meditations on the Tarot is Anthroposophy in its resurrected form.
These are very good questions, and I have to confess a degree of ignorance as to the precise spiritual scientific dynamics (the principles of "spiritual economy") at play in the Lazarus-John mystery as it applies to Anthroposophy. I can however make a few clarifications. The death and resurrection of Anthroposophy does not necessarily imply a stop to the future incarnations of the individuality of Rudolf Steiner. In describing the death and resurrection of Anthroposophy, we are discussing the inherent dynamics of an impulse which is to become a great stream. Moreover, this stream is to be the carrier wave upon which all the streams of the entire earth will be brought to flow through the sieve of those same inherent dynamics. All streams must pass through into etheric baptism, as it were, but they die on the Cross of the mineral intellect.
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 3:19 pm
Federica wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 1:25 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:50 pm If, at this moment, the RCC were to become the sole arbiter of higher revelations and the sole authority of how such revelations should steer the collective life, that would be a tragic event. I don't see that happening, and I certainly don't see that as VT's plan or hope.

You are overlooking what I quoted before from MoT. And this is in a published book. VT implores the Unknown Friends to ONLY rely on the RCC and no other organizations, associations, or societies whatsoever. Or is there perhaps an hermetic reading of these words that would reverse the meaning by 180 degrees? Rodriel may tell us.

Tomberg wrote:Dear Unknown Friend—you who are reading these lines written in 1965, after nearly fifty years of endeavour and experience in the domain of Hermeticism—I beg you not to regard what is written here as a simple wish made for the progression of Hermetic historicism, but as a testament making you who read these lines a trustee of such a task— if you accept. Therefore, please do all that you judge appropriate, but one thing I implore you not to do: to found an organisation, an association, a society or an order which would take charge of that. For the tradition lives not thanks to organisations, but in spite of them. One should content oneself purely and simply with friendship in order to preserve the life of a tradition; it should not be entrusted to the care of the embalmers and mummifiers par excellence that organisations are, save for the one founded by Jesus Christ.

Right, so let's appreciate that the quote, up until "save for that founded by Jesus Christ", is practically 100% aligned with what you and Cleric have been expressing as a concern about individual souls, who are trustees of the esoteric tradition and its further development within the Christ ideal, submitting that task to the rigid constraints of an organizational authority. We shouldn't lightly ignore this aspect of VT's stance.


That’s incorrect. What I’ve been saying (with Steiner) from page 1 of this thread is very different from what VT says in the first part of the quote. For him, one should renounce all sorts of organization except the Church, living in personal, intimate certainty, and only allow oneself to share something of the higher truths within the privacy of an intimate friendship, possibly.
By contrast, I agree with Steiner that one does not need a religious institution today in order to experience the higher truths. However, as I said, one should avoid isolating oneself from social life and one should try to contribute to spiritual evolution through groups, circles, associations, and other ways. A sense of community and progression should develop, where everyone benefits from the interactions. A forum such as ours, for example, where spiritual discussions, exercises, meditations, are publicly accessible to anyone on the internet, with no barriers whatsoever, surely fails to meet Tomberg’s imploration, but certainly meets our idea of how spiritual evolution can be worked at in open groups, for the benefit of all, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. The same goes for other modes, such as meditation groups, organizations that arrange lectures, workshops, online publications, and similar. They obviously don't meet VT's requirements by their very nature, but may definitely meet mine.

AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 3:19 pm Then the question is, what precisely is the meaning of "save for that founded by Jesus Christ"? Of course, such a question can only be answered through contemplating VT's much wider context of work and life. Does it mean that, if you have become a trustee of the Hermetic task (and if you come to the point where you are contemplating the letters, you are invited to become such a trustee), you should unconditionally submit your conscience and knowing process to the rigid constraints of the Church? That this is the only possible way forward for the Christian Hermeticist? I see no reason why it must be interpreted that way.

Yes, I agree it could be as you say. But the whole problem remains that, for him, you should either entrust your spiritual striving to the Church, or you should remain isolated and silent. And THIS is what I said above. Indeed, he doesn't force you to enter the Church, but he implores you to ONLY rely on the RCC and no other organizations, associations, or societies for the purpose of working on the spiritual collectively. And THIS is of course the problem. For Tomberg, there can be no sharing between people to help each other within organizations, outside of the perimeter of the Church. In his vision, the Church is indeed the sole, jealous arbiter to control revelation in the outer world, and the sole authority of how such revelations should steer the collective life. This, in your words, would be tragic.

You said that you certainly don't see that as VT's plan or hope, but it doesn’t stand up to the facts, as I am showing.
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 5:18 pm That’s incorrect. What I’ve been saying (with Steiner) from page 1 of this thread is very different from what VT says in the first part of the quote. For him, one should renounce all sorts of organization except the Church, living in personal, intimate certainty, and only allow oneself to share something of the higher truths within the privacy of an intimate friendship, possibly.
By contrast, I agree with Steiner that one does not need a religious institution today in order to experience the higher truths. However, as I said, one should avoid isolating oneself from social life and one should try to contribute to spiritual evolution through groups, circles, associations, and other ways. A sense of community and progression should develop, where everyone benefits from the interactions. A forum such as ours, for example, where spiritual discussions, exercises, meditations, are publicly accessible to anyone on the internet, with no barriers whatsoever, surely fails to meet Tomberg’s imploration, but certainly meets our idea of how spiritual evolution can be worked at in open groups, for the benefit of all, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. The same goes for other modes, such as meditation groups, organizations that arrange lectures, workshops, online publications, and similar. They obviously don't meet VT's requirements by their very nature, but may definitely meet mine.
...
Yes, I agree it could be as you say. But the whole problem remains that, for him, you should either entrust your spiritual striving to the Church, or you should remain isolated and silent. And THIS is what I said above. Indeed, he doesn't force you to enter the Church, but he implores you to ONLY rely on the RCC and no other organizations, associations, or societies for the purpose of working on the spiritual collectively. And THIS is of course the problem. For Tomberg, there can be no sharing between people to help each other within organizations, outside of the perimeter of the Church. In his vision, the Church is indeed the sole, jealous arbiter to control revelation in the outer world, and the sole authority of how such revelations should steer the collective life. This, in your words, would be tragic.

You said that you certainly don't see that as VT's plan or hope, but it doesn’t stand up to the facts, as I am showing.

I don't see any either/or in the bold way. What he implored specifically was not to found an organization that becomes the sole framework that formats the soul's esoteric striving. The idea of remaining completely isolated and silent, on the other hand, simply does not harmonize with his other comments and, more importantly, his activities. Just as little as I think he would fall into the elementary mistake of imagining we can skip directly from the intellectual soul to the spirit self, do I think he would fall into the mistake of such a performative contradiction between what he is doing and what he is saying. If we take it as part of our spiritual task to emulate the deeds of VT to some extent, then clearly we will be sharing our supersensible insights with others through various media such as books, articles, online forums, etc. He surely advises souls to be cautious with their sharing of supersensible perceptions or ideas and to let those perceptions and ideas mature in the soul before they are communicated, which is also advice we find from Steiner (again, this forum is a great example of such a cautious approach, where our explorations revolve around the core inner foundations). And it is surely advice that the current Anthroposophical Society, especially as it manifests on online platforms and certain publications, with endless speculation about Ahriman's incarnation, the 8th sphere, the previous and future incarnations of various individualities, ego-less human beings, etc., could take more to heart.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 5:46 pm I don't see any either/or in the bold way. What he implored specifically was not to found an organization that becomes the sole framework that formats the soul's esoteric striving. The idea of remaining completely isolated and silent, on the other hand, simply does not harmonize with his other comments and, more importantly, his activities. Just as little as I think he would fall into the elementary mistake of imagining we can skip directly from the intellectual soul to the spirit self, do I think he would fall into the mistake of such a performative contradiction between what he is doing and what he is saying. If we take it as part of our spiritual task to emulate the deeds of VT to some extent, then clearly we will be sharing our supersensible insights with others through various media such as books, articles, online forums, etc. He surely advises souls to be cautious with their sharing of supersensible perceptions or ideas and to let those perceptions and ideas mature in the soul before they are communicated, which is also advice we find from Steiner (again, this forum is a great example of such a cautious approach, where our explorations revolve around the core inner foundations). And it is surely advice that the current Anthroposophical Society, especially as it manifests on online platforms and certain publications, with endless speculation about Ahriman's incarnation, the 8th sphere, the previous and future incarnations of various individualities, ego-less human beings, etc., could take more to heart.


Ashvin,
Tomberg says that "tradition lives not thanks to organisations", and that "organizations" - organizations in general, not only newly founded ones! ................................ - are embalmers and mummifiers. If you refuse to read it, I am afraid there's nothing I can do for you. You will have to remain in your contorted attempts to unread what is there.
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner
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