On the 'Culmination' of Anthroposophy

[Federica]

We can surely explore various reasons why this introspective method seems to present (or even trigger) inner obstacles for modern souls, and I would say we have already been exploring those reasons across these recent threads. It is critical to get a more refined feeling for these inner obstacles, because I think they also help us imagine the potential 'resolution space' that can be navigated. Again, the central theme of Cleric's elucidations on the VT thread was some of the key reasons for the inner obstacles (the intellect becomes attached to the trellis, traceable wires, and so on, which give it a firm sense of anchorage within intellectual-sensory coordinates, the CoT chain). 

Exercises for improving working memory can be instructive here, such as the one Kaje presented before. Even though these are highly practical, they still accustom us to life on this side of the threshold. This working memory function is one of the first vectors of ordinary soul life that begins to diffuse into the spiritual atmosphere upon crossing the threshold, as the soul needs to find more and more anchorage within its fluid, continually morphing spiritual gestures. It starts to experience the navigation within reality as a process of continual activity, kindling experiences (ideas) anew at each step. Then we are leading a nearly opposite life to what we have grown accustomed to in sensory existence, where we can rest our activity on the working memory function and cleanly trace our ideas to its representations. (the freestyle example is also helpful to consider here)

(again, strengthening this working memory function becomes an asset for higher development once we begin to do it consciously and introspectively, remaining lucidly aware of the dynamics suggested above)

Even more relevant was Cleric's response when I asked what kind of hope he places in the Anthroposophical project, a response which I feel fully aligned with my intuitive experience and which I have also tried to express before:

Cleric: "We shouldn't act as if Anthroposophy has offered us an investment plan with promises for a quick return, and now, a hundred years later, we're worried that it may not live up to the expectations (thus, we quickly seek to cash out and reinvest in a more conservative but hopefully safer plan). We are speaking about the evolutionary process of humanity here. Over long spans of time. Whose trajectory depends primarily on what human beings will understand about reality and how they will act upon it, what they will emanate. I don't have any special confidence in the Anthroposophical projects as they are now. In a way, I look at them as completely necessary attempts or even hints. Just like our first essays were necessary attempts, even if clumsy, and sometimes with errors. But this is part of gaining experience, probing, and expanding our intuitive horizons. It is important to notice that because of these attempts, we are at all able to discuss seriously the possibility of the spirit entering into the practical fields of human affairs. Without that, we might as well still live in a default conception of a rigid two-compartment world, with a hard boundary between the material and the spiritual. So with this in mind, we shouldn’t forget that these things are still incubating. Before we expect the World the change, we should see that change within ourselves.

Thus, what I have confidence in is the Spirit at work. I have confidence in the gradual inversion of our inner attitude. In the age of the intellectual soul, it can be said that our inner activity needs to be tethered to certain intuitive gestures and sensations. These are ToE principles for the scientist; they are the dogma-axioms for the religious. They give anchorage to the intellectual self. With the development of the spiritual soul, the most important thing is the inversion, to find that our true tether is in the spiritual world, in the invisible Sun.

This is the primary thing. We may grumble about the lack of World-scale results, but I don’t think anyone would deny the power of the Teachings of the new impulse to incite the transformation on an individual level. Thus, to me, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them" is like a motto. This is the living, tangible reality – the inner immersion in the Divine, and having the constant desire to transform ourselves, such that we can conduct the currents in better and better ways, and to comprehend the depth of reality."

As Cleric also mentioned on that thread, the hints toward how the soul can find its true spiritual tether in the invisible Sun, the higher Self, is experienced as a (mostly subconsciously) scary prospect, like losing the ground beneath one's feet. That is why we speak of the Guardian. And encountering this Guardian, which all souls do when trying to rise in spiritual understanding, will always be experienced as a frightful prospect until the introspective approach is plunged into. Only this plunge can begin to give us objective cognitive distance from the deeper soul being and its flow, which then renders the encounter less terrifying and more pedagogical. We then feel like the fabric of inner life is not under threat of being torn asunder, but given a new kind of support to reconstitute it at a deeper level of integration (like the butterfly from the dissolved parts of the caterpillar). So it's once again an example of the Catch-22. 

We could sum it up as: the reason the introspective apparel doesn't work so well is that it is never actually tried on. The intellectual soul always manages to rationalize some excuse for why it should be delayed, postponed, why it's too demanding, too direct, and so on. It often subtly transforms the introspective exercise into a strictly logical one, a theoretical inquiry of the deeper dynamics. The fact is, out of all those on the forum with whom we have engaged, we have no idea how many actually tried the introspective apparel on. We know that Lorenzo, for example, quickly became exhausted by the 'flowery terminology' and gave up (and trying to find support within real-time spiritual gestures is indeed exhausting for ordinary intellectual habits). The soul doesn't even make it into the fitting room (the chrysalis) but immediately throws the apparel back on the shelf. 

It is tempting at this point to feel like the apparel needs to be substituted, that the soul should be given some more indirect way of trying the clothes on, which gradually leads to the fitting room. That is another verifiable inner dynamic. It is not only because we desire to help other souls, but because it also gives us a reason to spend more time out of the fitting room and within the traceable wires of sensory life. Yet this only exacerbates the conundrum, in my view. Just like the child learns most intimately and effectively by picking up subtle cues from the adults that surround it, others will learn most effectively about the introspective life that bridges across the threshold from what they observe us doing. If we lack enthusiasm for that life, so will they. Then the time for the collective transition to a flow-centric existence becomes increasingly delayed and remote. 


It is certainly worth considering, and I hope it is evident how the introspective approach (as exemplified in the essays) serves precisely this function of leveraging the details of the phenomenal flow and leading to progressive intuition of participation within that flow. This is the refreshment of spiritual science (or any science, art, religion, etc.) that Steiner continually pointed toward. It is already here, already established, already accessible to souls across the varied domains of life. Even if we don't see quick returns on investment, that doesn't mean we need to throw the apparel back on the shelf and seek another approach to the fitting room. Ironically, it only shows how much the same approach to the fitting room needs to be strengthened, because the value of introspective life can never be demonstrated to the intellect beforehand, but only becomes apparent through leading and exemplifying that Life itself.

In general, nothing can be objected to these remarks. And yet, your "been-there-done-that" reply doesn't seem on-point to me.

When I say that I don’t have a clue why the essays tend to leave people indifferent, I don’t refer to the universal evolutionary obstacles to the inner path, and their key reasons in our time. I know those well enough through my own experience, first and foremost, and I have not been caught by sudden amnesia. Indeed, we have discussed these obstacles many times. They manifest as soon as the attempt is made to get out of the familiar apprehending mode, to actually experience the new discoveries in one’s inner life. In your metaphor, as soon as the apparel is tried on, these known difficulties appear. You have made your reply entirely about them, but my point is that the essays have not even been taken seriously. The apparel is immediately dismissed, despite the fact that it speaks very fittingly to the intellect.

It is one thing that wearing the apparel and keeping it on is very difficult. We know how and why it is so. But the incomprehensible thing is that the essays are usually brushed off way before it's time to really face those difficulties. They tend to be instantly dismissed, at the stage where the intellect should find them highly relevant, novel, and compelling. This is what I was asking about. Why doesn't the reader's intellect recognize anything special in them? Before the apparel is worn and experienced, it should be perceived as uniquely relevant by the intellect, especially when it's cut as it is cut. At that early stage, the difficulties you speak of don’t yet apply. So how is this possible, despite their being perfectly fitted to the intellect's antennas?

I think we can form some concrete idea of this attitude. You speak of Lorenzo. In my opinion, he never tried on any apparels and didn't even take a look at any of them with seriousness. I don’t find this too outrageous, but what about the other ones who were explicitly or implicitly unimpressed? I am sure you have the names in mind just as I do. And the same has happened with others as well. As you say, the soul doesn't even make it into the fitting room. But the reasons you have made your post about only arise once one has made it into the fitting room, tried on the apparel, and begun to walked around in it.

Of course I am not suggesting that the apparel should be changed, but perhaps it can be presented in another way that at least leads to the fitting room. I knew all along your thesis that I ask these questions “because it also gives us a reason to spend more time out of the fitting room and within the traceable wires of sensory life”. Yet, what you don’t consider is that I don’t need to be convinced that the apparel is to be tried on. This is where my first intentions and efforts are directed. Still, if one doesn’t want to isolate oneself more and more in human life (outwardly and inwardly), it becomes necessary to explore the possibilities of a continuity of life, without double games, within the human environments one is a part of. Just “being oneself” in relative secrecy, playing the usual double game in presence of others - diverting questions, keeping explanations to a minimum - is not a long-term solution, as I see it. Just because one is committed and dedicated to pursuing the inner transformation and living a new life won’t make the social environment - online and off line - interested and eager to learn. It’s almost the opposite. What “they will observe us doing” simply perplex them and confuse them, if not worse. No matter if it's about family friends and colleagues, members of an association, or spiritual seekers on an online forum. The question applies to all, if we don't compartmentalize our life (inner and outer). Active bridges will become more and more necessary, and will make more and more sense, I believe, as opposed to being a silent example, radiating teaching cues in the environment simply by "being oneself".

Therefore I don’t think you can back up your disinterest in these bridging attempts with the idea that the bridge is firstly conceived as an excuse to evade the personal difficulties of the inner path. Rather, it’s only from the perspective of the most serious commitment to the inner path, that the desire for a bridge can emerge. As I see it, this disinterest goes hand in hand with the project of parking the not-so-evolved souls inside the past-oriented shell of the RCC.

[AshvinP]

In general, nothing can be objected to these remarks. And yet, your "been-there-done-that" reply doesn't seem on-point to me.

When I say that I don’t have a clue why the essays tend to leave people indifferent, I don’t refer to the universal evolutionary obstacles to the inner path, and their key reasons in our time. I know those well enough through my own experience, first and foremost, and I have not been caught by sudden amnesia. Indeed, we have discussed these obstacles many times. They manifest as soon as the attempt is made to get out of the familiar apprehending mode, to actually experience the new discoveries in one’s inner life. In your metaphor, as soon as the apparel is tried on, these known difficulties appear. You have made your reply entirely about them, but my point is that the essays have not even been taken seriously. The apparel is immediately dismissed, despite the fact that it speaks very fittingly to the intellect.

It is one thing that wearing the apparel and keeping it on is very difficult. We know how and why it is so. But the incomprehensible thing is that the essays are usually brushed off way before it's time to really face those difficulties. They tend to be instantly dismissed, at the stage where the intellect should find them highly relevant, novel, and compelling. This is what I was asking about. Why doesn't the reader's intellect recognize anything special in them? Before the apparel is worn and experienced, it should be perceived as uniquely relevant by the intellect, especially when it's cut as it is cut. At that early stage, the difficulties you speak of don’t yet apply. So how is this possible, despite their being perfectly fitted to the intellect's antennas?

I think we can form some concrete idea of this attitude. You speak of Lorenzo. In my opinion, he never tried on any apparels and didn't even take a look at any of them with seriousness. I don’t find this too outrageous, but what about the other ones who were explicitly or implicitly unimpressed? I am sure you have the names in mind just as I do. And the same has happened with others as well. As you say, the soul doesn't even make it into the fitting room. But the reasons you have made your post about only arise once one has made it into the fitting room, tried on the apparel, and begun to walked around in it.

I don't think that is quite correct. I am also speaking of difficulties before the apparel is tried on. The fitting room is the act of imaginatively living through the exercises with a certain degree of enthusiasm, not only with the passive intellect that finds the concepts 'highly relevant'. This is exactly what Steiner pointed to in his reflections upon how people were approaching PoF. They saw in it highly relevant concepts to the possibility of 'freedom', yet they only dreamed their way through the content theoretically. They were the 'practical thinkers' of their time, and it was exactly these conditioned thinking habits that made them dress up mental dolls with the apparel, rather than going into the fitting room and trying it on themselves. These two ways of approaching the content are experienced completely differently, with different inner stances and gestures that I have been trying to highlight in various ways. My sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't repel away because they tried the apparel on and it didn't like how it looked, but because they only dressed up mental dolls with the apparel and found the result unsatisfying (unsurprisingly). And that is a persistent danger for the intellect that reinforces its 'practical thinking' on this side of the threshold, becoming further accustomed to 'how reality works' through its 'practical' gestures.

We have to realize that the inner dynamics - the 'universal evolutionary obstacles' - are the only place to look for the reasons you are asking about. Everything takes shape within these archetypal dynamics, especially everything related to spiritual inquiry and understanding. If we start looking for the reasons somewhere else, somewhere 'before' the inner dynamics take hold, then there is something about those transpersonal dynamics that we are not oriented to properly yet. These inner dynamics are taking hold all the time, even before we are conscious that there is apparel that needs to be tried on. Our dreaming-sleeping soul being weaves in deeper curvatures where these ideal trajectories are anticipated. It feels the apparel attracting it as a magnetic center attracts the pendulum, and once it is confronted with the apparel at the sensory level, it approaches the bifurcation point where it can either be immediately repelled away from the magnetic center (the default in our time), or courageously attempt to align its thinking being with the streamlines of the inner 'vortex' and implode through the center. The state of introspection-concentration-meditation is our native existence, it is the atmosphere in which our deeper soul being lives and is always instinctively striving to become more conscious of. Likewise, the fear of how this consciousness will change our current soul perspective is always instinctively felt.

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA226/En ... 18v01.html
Steiner: "Now you might say: What does all this matter, as long as we know nothing about it? Well, it matters a great deal. I should like to explain, by means of a comparison, how much it matters.

Suppose that we become frightened in ordinary daily life. We turn pale. The emotion of fear is consciously felt by the soul. A definite change in our organism makes us turn pale. The blood streams back into the body's interior. This is an objective process. We can describe the emotion of fear in connection with an objective process taking place, in daily conscious life, within the physical body. What we experience in our soul is, as it were, a mirrored image reflecting this streaming away of the blood from the body's surface to its inner parts. Thus an objective process corresponds, in the waking state, to the emotion of fear. When we are asleep, a similar objective process, wholly independent of our consciousness, occurs in our astral body.

Anyone able to form imaginative and inspired conceptions will experience this objective process in the astral body as an emotion of fear. The objective element in fear, however, is actually experienced by man every night, because he feels himself being divided into parts inside his soul. And how is he being divided? Every night he is divided among the universe of stars."

Of course I am not suggesting that the apparel should be changed, but perhaps it can be presented in another way that at least leads to the fitting room. I knew all along your thesis that I ask these questions “because it also gives us a reason to spend more time out of the fitting room and within the traceable wires of sensory life”. Yet, what you don’t consider is that I don’t need to be convinced that the apparel is to be tried on. This is where my first intentions and efforts are directed. Still, if one doesn’t want to isolate oneself more and more in human life (outwardly and inwardly), it becomes necessary to explore the possibilities of a continuity of life, without double games, within the human environments one is a part of. Just “being oneself” in relative secrecy, playing the usual double game in presence of others - diverting questions, keeping explanations to a minimum - is not a long-term solution, as I see it. Just because one is committed and dedicated to pursuing the inner transformation and living a new life won’t make the social environment - online and off line - interested and eager to learn. It’s almost the opposite. What “they will observe us doing” simply perplex them and confuse them, if not worse. No matter if it's about family friends and colleagues, members of an association, or spiritual seekers on an online forum. The question applies to all, if we don't compartmentalize our life (inner and outer). Active bridges will become more and more necessary, and will make more and more sense, I believe, as opposed to being a silent example, radiating teaching cues in the environment simply by "being oneself".

Therefore I don’t think you can back up your disinterest in these bridging attempts with the idea that the bridge is firstly conceived as an excuse to evade the personal difficulties of the inner path. Rather, it’s only from the perspective of the most serious commitment to the inner path, that the desire for a bridge can emerge. As I see it, this disinterest goes hand in hand with the project of parking the not-so-evolved souls inside the past-oriented shell of the RCC.

There is a double game here, from my perspective. From one side of the mouth, we say that we understand everything about the need for the introspective approach and about trying the apparel on, that we don't need any more convincing, that we are only speaking of other souls who aren't prepared for this direct approach, and so on. From the other side, we keep asking about 'other bridges' and the very way in which we speak reveals that something about the introspective approach is not quite grasped. We say that the introspective bridge can't be the Bridge because it is too subtle, too demanding, too immediately rejected, and so on, and rather it needs to be subdivided into preparatory non-introspective bridges. When pressed to explore the inner dynamics of this Bridge further (that is, to try the apparel on), we say 'been there done that, it's all understood, and now I am moving a level deeper where it is about finding the preparatory bridges that lead the soul to the fitting room'.

The Guardian is no theoretical entity that we can grasp and be convinced of, once and for all. It is not like a physical object that we perceive, get a good understanding of, and move on from. Just like the meal from yesterday won't satisfy our hunger today, the concept of "Guardian' we forged before won't provide true understanding of how and why the Impulse to try on the apparel is so often dampened (not only by others, but also by ourselves). No, we need to be continually re-convinced of its existence and its direct influence on the swings of our inner pendulum. We need to introspectively tread over the same dynamics again and again. Sometimes our imaginative being swings quite close to the introspective apparel, other times it swings toward 'other ways' of bringing spiritual life to practical fruition. The only way to harmonize these swings is by introspectively observing them, faithfully and consistently. My disinterest is in the discussion being constantly repelled from this magnetic center that attracts it. I am rather interested in more thoroughly accustoming our imaginative organism to consistently unfold its existence in and around the center. 

For example, when I began to explore the working memory aspect of the inner dynamic, I felt this was highly relevant to the practical thinking bridge you suggest and could be an entry point into further exploration of how the frequency bands of experience relate to each other. Instead of things remaining highly nebulous and hypothetical, wondering about theoretical future possibilities for bridges, we can begin introspectively exploring the verifiable ways in which these 'bridges' take shape from inner experience and influence the life of our inner organism. How can we expect to try on the introspective apparel if, the few chances we get on a forum like this one, we are often saying, "already been there and understood", and then swinging away into theoretical speculations? How many other parts of our day are we prompted toward introspective observation of the thoughts that condense at the tip of our flow, rather than further conditioning to detached theoretical inquiry? 

I understand how this whole line of inquiry can be experienced as irritating for you. I imagine Rodriel was also irritated when it seemed to be suggested that the Catholic project was not only a proposal to help other Peter souls, but a mirror of our own desires for inner development - "But very importantly, we should very carefully investigate our inner motives. If we’re enthusiastic about the project because we feel the need for a community, our intuition can easily go disproportionate". I also became irritated when it seemed like VT's hermetic vision was being caricatured as a clever means of dampening the Impulse. One cannot help but feel irritation when the essential inner dynamics are explored, and the center of the central topic is approached. That itself needs to become a fertile field for introspective observation. Only then does true spiritual science begin. It's not about psychoanalyzing ourselves or others every time a new idea is formed, but rather it's about how a patient and faithful exploration of the archetypal inner dynamics will naturally illuminate the Inspirative forces at work along the depth axis, which steer and shape our thoughts at the surface. Then we also naturally become more disinterested in the forceful swings away from our native introspective existence.

Here's another way to think about it. From your perspective, the essential inner dynamics that Cleric pointed to on the VT thread were highly relevant and illuminating. When Rodriel or myself say, "Sure, these dynamics are all explored and understood, but there is an additional consideration of social life outside esoteric communities and we need to seriously contemplate how this dimension can be brought into continuity with the spiritual path," you see this as sidetracking from the core issue. You say these are irrelevant details that are being introduced to obscure the core inner dynamic. Why are you able to perceive things so clearly here? Perhaps it's because you are not sympathetically attached to the Church project, you have invested no significant time or mental energy into this project, and thus, you can attain a certain cognitive and emotional distance from its characteristic inner qualities. On the other hand, the 'practical thinking project' is something you have been exploring for some time now, devoting a lot of imaginative resources to it on this forum. Is it not conceivable that a similar inner process is unfolding here, which, however, you don't have sufficient distance from? Only when we stop focusing on which project is "right" or "wrong", which one can be differentiated as the true progressive project and which one is only inspired by regressive forces, and instead feel our way through the archetypal dynamics which shape all thoughts about these projects, are we trying the apparel on instead of dressing up mental dolls.

[Federica]

I don't think that is quite correct. I am also speaking of difficulties before the apparel is tried on. The fitting room is the act of imaginatively living through the exercises with a certain degree of enthusiasm, not only with the passive intellect that finds the concepts 'highly relevant'. This is exactly what Steiner pointed to in his reflections upon how people were approaching PoF. They saw in it highly relevant concepts to the possibility of 'freedom', yet they only dreamed their way through the content theoretically. They were the 'practical thinkers' of their time, and it was exactly these conditioned thinking habits that made them dress up mental dolls with the apparel, rather than going into the fitting room and trying it on themselves. These two ways of approaching the content are experienced completely differently, with different inner stances and gestures that I have been trying to highlight in various ways. My sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't repel away because they tried the apparel on and it didn't like how it looked, but because they only dressed up mental dolls with the apparel and found the result unsatisfying (unsurprisingly). And that is a persistent danger for the intellect that reinforces its 'practical thinking' on this side of the threshold, becoming further accustomed to 'how reality works' through its 'practical' gestures.

The bolded is also how I understand it. What I was trying to say is that there exists a step before the mental dolls are dressed up with the apparel. In order for the intellect to dress up those dolls, it needs to find the content highly relevant. Otherwise even that will not happen. What I said is, in many cases the intellect doesn’t even find the ideas relevant, and so the dolls are left in their loungewear. Now I hope you agree that the intellect is the inevitable initial intermediary. The ideas have to exert some appeal to it, to begin with, because the intellect is the one coming when the doorbell rings. There is nobody else awake anyway, at that point. And my sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't even make it to the doll step. Because it requires some seriousness and engagement, to dress up those dolls, you will agree. If the practical readers of PoF mentioned by Steiner were dressing dolls, it’s because at least they had found PoF highly relevant. But again, the problem with our readers today is that this has not happened. That's why I can’t agree that the universal evolutionary obstacles is the only place to look. The intellect needs to be captivated, that’s the first step. Without that, no fitting room, but also no doll show - nothing.

We have to realize that the inner dynamics - the 'universal evolutionary obstacles' - are the only place to look for the reasons you are asking about. Everything takes shape within these archetypal dynamics, especially everything related to spiritual inquiry and understanding. If we start looking for the reasons somewhere else, somewhere 'before' the inner dynamics take hold, then there is something about those transpersonal dynamics that we are not oriented to properly yet. These inner dynamics are taking hold all the time, even before we are conscious that there is apparel that needs to be tried on. Our dreaming-sleeping soul being weaves in deeper curvatures where these ideal trajectories are anticipated. It feels the apparel attracting it as a magnetic center attracts the pendulum, and once it is confronted with the apparel at the sensory level, it approaches the bifurcation point where it can either be immediately repelled away from the magnetic center (the default in our time), or courageously attempt to align its thinking being with the streamlines of the inner 'vortex' and implode through the center. The state of introspection-concentration-meditation is our native existence, it is the atmosphere in which our deeper soul being lives and is always instinctively striving to become more conscious of. Likewise, the fear of how this consciousness will change our current soul perspective is always instinctively felt.

By the way, here you state that “the inner dynamics take hold all the time, even before we are conscious that there is apparel that needs to be tried on". However, speaking of chess the other day, you deemed that the inner dynamics were only working once brought into consciousness:

The main point is that we should remain keenly aware of how our inner movements are being formatted within these fixed constraints, even when we instinctively seek attunement with the other player's soul through the game feedback. That attunement can only be as rich as is allowed by the fixed constraints, since these likewise format the other player's inner chess life. (...) There is only one exception to this fixed rule conditioning of our inner process within the gameplay, which is precisely when our attuning process is no longer done instinctively (unconsciously) but becomes a matter of introspective observation.

So are the deeper trajectories anticipated and felt only at occasions? Regardless of how much the unconscious soul feels the attraction of the magnetic center and the fear of the abyss, the main point is that the conscious intellect has to open the door first.

There is a double game here, from my perspective. From one side of the mouth, we say that we understand everything about the need for the introspective approach and about trying the apparel on, that we don't need any more convincing, that we are only speaking of other souls who aren't prepared for this direct approach, and so on. From the other side, we keep asking about 'other bridges' and the very way in which we speak reveals that something about the introspective approach is not quite grasped. We say that the introspective bridge can't be the Bridge because it is too subtle, too demanding, too immediately rejected, and so on, and rather it needs to be subdivided into preparatory non-introspective bridges. When pressed to explore the inner dynamics of this Bridge further (that is, to try the apparel on), we say 'been there done that, it's all understood, and now I am moving a level deeper where it is about finding the preparatory bridges that lead the soul to the fitting room'.

The Guardian is no theoretical entity that we can grasp and be convinced of, once and for all. It is not like a physical object that we perceive, get a good understanding of, and move on from. Just like the meal from yesterday won't satisfy our hunger today, the concept of "Guardian' we forged before won't provide true understanding of how and why the Impulse to try on the apparel is so often dampened (not only by others, but also by ourselves). No, we need to be continually re-convinced of its existence and its direct influence on the swings of our inner pendulum. We need to introspectively tread over the same dynamics again and again. Sometimes our imaginative being swings quite close to the introspective apparel, other times it swings toward 'other ways' of bringing spiritual life to practical fruition. The only way to harmonize these swings is by introspectively observing them, faithfully and consistently. My disinterest is in the discussion being constantly repelled from this magnetic center that attracts it. I am rather interested in more thoroughly accustoming our imaginative organism to consistently unfold its existence in and around the center.

Not correct. I am tired of your distortions and other usual manners. I didn't suggest that I understood everything about introspection and about trying the apparel. And I also did not speak of other souls only. I think this was clearly expressed. I spoke of continuity of life with other souls, in which we are enmeshed, etcetera. I won't elaborate more (or again) on this part. In the face of the bad faith you demonstrate, it would be fruitless. Just like your sermon is, off-topic once again. Yes, we need to tread over the same dynamic again and again. I never suggested anything incompatible with this obvious fact of spiritual experience. You know, Ashvin, even if you can't see how, be sure that one actually can try on the introspective apparel beyond the chances you offer here. These are no viable conditions to discuss working memory, or anything else. And you don't have to waste ink replying that this is the clearest sign that I refuse the inner dynamic, that something is wrong with my orientation, etcetera. I see what you mean, that's clear enough.

[AshvinP]

I don't think that is quite correct. I am also speaking of difficulties before the apparel is tried on. The fitting room is the act of imaginatively living through the exercises with a certain degree of enthusiasm, not only with the passive intellect that finds the concepts 'highly relevant'. This is exactly what Steiner pointed to in his reflections upon how people were approaching PoF. They saw in it highly relevant concepts to the possibility of 'freedom', yet they only dreamed their way through the content theoretically. They were the 'practical thinkers' of their time, and it was exactly these conditioned thinking habits that made them dress up mental dolls with the apparel, rather than going into the fitting room and trying it on themselves. These two ways of approaching the content are experienced completely differently, with different inner stances and gestures that I have been trying to highlight in various ways. My sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't repel away because they tried the apparel on and it didn't like how it looked, but because they only dressed up mental dolls with the apparel and found the result unsatisfying (unsurprisingly). And that is a persistent danger for the intellect that reinforces its 'practical thinking' on this side of the threshold, becoming further accustomed to 'how reality works' through its 'practical' gestures.

The bolded is also how I understand it. What I was trying to say is that there exists a step before the mental dolls are dressed up with the apparel. In order for the intellect to dress up those dolls, it needs to find the content highly relevant. Otherwise even that will not happen. What I said is, in many cases the intellect doesn’t even find the ideas relevant, and so the dolls are left in their loungewear. Now I hope you agree that the intellect is the inevitable initial intermediary. The ideas have to exert some appeal to it, to begin with, because the intellect is the one coming when the doorbell rings. There is nobody else awake anyway, at that point. And my sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't even make it to the doll step. Because it requires some seriousness and engagement, to dress up those dolls, you will agree. If the practical readers of PoF mentioned by Steiner were dressing dolls, it’s because at least they had found PoF highly relevant. But again, the problem with our readers today is that this has not happened. That's why I can’t agree that the universal evolutionary obstacles is the only place to look. The intellect needs to be captivated, that’s the first step. Without that, no fitting room, but also no doll show - nothing.

Ok, but then it sounds to me like you are speaking of people who aren't even interested in deeper questions of science, philosophy, epistemology, phenomenology, idealism, and such to begin with, and therefore wouldn't find the general ideas relevant. I think the modern spiritual path presupposes souls who are karmically developed enough to kindle an interest in such questions and actively go searching for answers. Even if we wanted to coax this initial 'captivation' out of someone, for some reason, we shouldn’t expect it to be possible. We certainly shouldn't invest imaginative resources in figuring out how to accomplish the undesirable and impossible, in my view.

More introspectively speaking, focusing our efforts on captivating the initial interest is like:



Our efforts then feel as though they are becoming infinitely subdivided into smaller and smaller incremental steps, which are firmly planted within the receding side of the inner dynamics, asymptotically approaching the fitting room threshold. What ML does is instructive here. He wants to explore the structured potential of Platonic space, but he also wants to do so with easily accessible, clear-cut computational gestures that can be shared with others and can lead to certain practical technologies. So he focuses most of his experimentation on the simplest life forms and algorithms, which is akin to focusing on the subdivided practical steps that should lead to the fitting room. He convinces himself that these steps provide a direct window on the inner qualities of cognitive agents. This helps him maintain the illusion that physical experimentation and calculation will lead to deeper answers and even the salvation of humanity. Hoffman is another example of focusing on the simplest 'cognitive agents' to derive mathematical models that should lead to deeper insight into Platonic space. It is helpful to survey these broad gestures and try to feel how they come to expression in unique ways, which, however, all keep the intellect busy subdividing its steps on the receding side of the threshold.

Cleric: "This is one aspect. It is normal that the intellect should seek this gradual approach. What was said does not negate such an approach but only shows that certain patience and persistence are required. That's why one still needs at least some karmic inclination. There's something that must be giving us the sense "Even though these data points seem abstract and fleeting, maybe it's still worth it to persist a little more." Those who dogmatically refuse to accept anything unless it builds up as a simple linear progression, where each next step can be completely constructed as a reorganization of what is already known from the past, will unsurprisingly never find the sense of deeper reality."


In that sense, I simply don't see what value can come from centering the discussion around this infinite subdivision into practical steps to generate initial interest. What matters, instead, is how souls who do take an initial interest (karmic inclination) in at least seeing what these things are all about, engage with and understand the content. That matters not least because it's the position we are all in here, as we have followed our karmic inclination in the deeper questions and try to work through the introspective content, and surely meet inner obstacles along the way, which take their shape on the not-yet-receded side of the threshold. We are all dressing up mental dolls for the greater portion of our daily flow, and we need to discover the means to transition this habitual gesture into directly trying on the clothing over our inner being. That is not only for our benefit, but will also make us more practically useful for orienting those souls who have followed their karmic inclination to the spiritual path (which is a prerequisite).

We have to realize that the inner dynamics - the 'universal evolutionary obstacles' - are the only place to look for the reasons you are asking about. Everything takes shape within these archetypal dynamics, especially everything related to spiritual inquiry and understanding. If we start looking for the reasons somewhere else, somewhere 'before' the inner dynamics take hold, then there is something about those transpersonal dynamics that we are not oriented to properly yet. These inner dynamics are taking hold all the time, even before we are conscious that there is apparel that needs to be tried on. Our dreaming-sleeping soul being weaves in deeper curvatures where these ideal trajectories are anticipated. It feels the apparel attracting it as a magnetic center attracts the pendulum, and once it is confronted with the apparel at the sensory level, it approaches the bifurcation point where it can either be immediately repelled away from the magnetic center (the default in our time), or courageously attempt to align its thinking being with the streamlines of the inner 'vortex' and implode through the center. The state of introspection-concentration-meditation is our native existence, it is the atmosphere in which our deeper soul being lives and is always instinctively striving to become more conscious of. Likewise, the fear of how this consciousness will change our current soul perspective is always instinctively felt.

By the way, here you state that “the inner dynamics take hold all the time, even before we are conscious that there is apparel that needs to be tried on". However, speaking of chess the other day, you deemed that the inner dynamics were only working once brought into consciousness:

The main point is that we should remain keenly aware of how our inner movements are being formatted within these fixed constraints, even when we instinctively seek attunement with the other player's soul through the game feedback. That attunement can only be as rich as is allowed by the fixed constraints, since these likewise format the other player's inner chess life. (...) There is only one exception to this fixed rule conditioning of our inner process within the gameplay, which is precisely when our attuning process is no longer done instinctively (unconsciously) but becomes a matter of introspective observation.

So are the deeper trajectories anticipated and felt only at occasions? Regardless of how much the unconscious soul feels the attraction of the magnetic center and the fear of the abyss, the main point is that the conscious intellect has to open the door first.

The deeper dynamics and trajectories are always there and being felt subconsciously, but obviously, we are hardly conscious of this feeling flow and instead imagine we are making our 'rational decisions' about what to pursue and what not to pursue at the tip of our thinking flow. The introspective exercises should help us gradually unveil these deeper soul dynamics at an imaginative level, which is the only way to stop being helplessly steered by their flows. Then we will meet the true reasons (at least at the soul level) why the apparel isn't tried on, but only placed over mental dolls, and why this is continually happening in our imaginative life. It's like, instead of playing the Chess game, calculating our moves, observing the results, and being reactively swamped by feelings of joy, satisfaction, displeasure, frustration, and so on, we leverage the Chess game to observe how our soul being is moving through this feeling landscape all the time and how our Chess moves take shape within its context. The decision to 'open the door' also takes place within this context, and the only way to become more conscious of the context, and thus attain an orientation to 'door opening', is to actually engage and persist in pulling the handle.

[Kaje977]

The bolded is also how I understand it. What I was trying to say is that there exists a step before the mental dolls are dressed up with the apparel. In order for the intellect to dress up those dolls, it needs to find the content highly relevant. Otherwise even that will not happen. What I said is, in many cases the intellect doesn’t even find the ideas relevant, and so the dolls are left in their loungewear. Now I hope you agree that the intellect is the inevitable initial intermediary. The ideas have to exert some appeal to it, to begin with, because the intellect is the one coming when the doorbell rings. There is nobody else awake anyway, at that point. And my sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't even make it to the doll step. Because it requires some seriousness and engagement, to dress up those dolls, you will agree. If the practical readers of PoF mentioned by Steiner were dressing dolls, it’s because at least they had found PoF highly relevant. But again, the problem with our readers today is that this has not happened. That's why I can’t agree that the universal evolutionary obstacles is the only place to look. The intellect needs to be captivated, that’s the first step. Without that, no fitting room, but also no doll show - nothing.

Yes, that's an interesting and important point. And I remember it being briefly discussed in relation to Tomberg. I try to give a possible perspective here:

Basically, there is an old saying: "Don't throw your pearls before swine" Although this is very outdated and probably no longer relevant, it is based on the (still relevant) idea that there will simply be people who are not yet ready for this path and therefore little or nothing will be able to convince them, and it isn't much of use to try to convince them or make it appealing for them. On the contrary, "wanting to convince" or "making it appealing" can very quickly be a dangerous problem, because the tendency to influence the person on their path, even to lie to them or "lure" (as many occult paths do, unfortunately) them, can obstruct the idea of the spiritual path and also be a heavy burden on your own karma. I want to clarify this more, so you get the context:

The "lure" aspect was a very interesting occult motive (although it has to do with the ahrimanic and luciferic forces), which is not often talked about. It's a thing in many secret orders and lodges who recruited some outsiders in the hopes of keeping the divine torch alive, but still keep with the times. Basically, there were teachers out there who would, on purpose, lure newcomers into achieving certain egoish goals via magical operations (rituals, etc) to awake interest. Similar to a cult, they would appeal to their deepest desires, anything really, and lure these into their orders. Sure, I believe many of these outsiders still declined, but I assume quite a lot more immediately agreed to it, simply thanks to the appeal. These teachers would then go and teach them all basics found in many occult paths, then the students would rise and complete degrees. However, in the course of time, these students (as expected by the teachers) would sooner or later become very dissatisfied with their egoic goals, and worse, experience traumatic events that made them either quit occultism entirely or cause a change of heart within themselves, away from satisfying lower goals and towards the Divine Science, the Spiritual Science.

Although this was an interesting didactic approach, it did not bear much fruit and made things even worse as there were another kind of people that resulted because of this: black magicians. Most of them became luciferic, nowadays more and more younger generations in these orders and lodges happen to be very ahrimanic black "magicians" (to be more concrete: they can't really perform rituals or magic most of the time (they lack the deeper soul engagement), they even think it's bogus, so they instead re-built everything to make it real, via materialistic concepts and technology). And I'd argue, these are much more dangerous in our current system, they even pose a threat to the "old" elite of luciferic black magicians who held most of the influence for many centuries. While the latter (luciferic) established an organized order built on ideas of freedom and individualism, and (despite their lower motives) possess spiritual awareness and deeper and true soul engagement, the former (ahrimanic) are now destroying all of it and attempt to impose and create a world of isolation and fear, they have no true and deep soul engagement with the spiritual at all. I like to call it the "Ahrimanic Buddha" sometimes. This isn't supposed to be an attack on Buddhism, but instead how the ultimate technique is total isolation and "forgetting yourself" (=> no-self) entirely, it is total stagnation and isolation in order to avoid suffering and fear, to let go of all responsibilities. If you know the anime, Soul Eater, I'd like to recommend you this scene here:



If one can't see how very obviously Ahriman speaks through that character, I don't know what else could. (Although, yes, luciferic tendencies are there as well)

You already perceive this with all the slowly, but upcoming attempts to take certain essential rights of freedom away, to have everything "guided" by something, while your own responsibilites are supposed to slowly, but surely diminish. All to take fear away, to increase "security" and "safety" and have things done for you rather than you having to deal with them on your own. But ironically, it will make things worse: chaos and madness will start to reign more and more the landscape, because that's ultimately what they truly believe. That there's no order, no higher truths, hence they need to built it themselves and believe people need to be guided by artifical rules and concepts. Asura (the character above) is at least very self-honest in that regard, but most people living within ahrimanic forces are not.

The Internet is the most obvious and first target, but in the following years we'll see much more constraints put on us than ever before. As soon as the older generations leave this planet and the ahrimanic forces take over, oh boy, there will be a lot of unsettling things happening. I think 2033 is indeed a good anchor point here, actually, speaking of it. It makes sense to me. But I wouldn't see it as a fixed date thing where it all will unfold in 2033. Instead, it'll be progressively moving towards it, and if we don't keep awareness of it and have a bad memory, we'll not really be able to tell the difference between now and 2033 except if more time passes (like in 2040 I'd assume the differences become very obvious; similar like how certain trends were easier to distinguish later on the more time passed).

So, the issue with making something more appealing is a "high-risk" reward. I believe it can work, but ultimately, the risk of such a person falling deep is very high. And thus, newer occult orders refuse to take in complete outsiders, and instead focus on those who are ripe for the Great Work.

Anyway, regarding enthusiasm: I can report the following, which is often found in the occult scene, who were previously not scientifically versed, but aren't really affiliated with Christianity either (or, basically: Are (more often) formal Christians, but not really that much into the doctrine or know only very superficial aspects of it):

1. Many (at least in the West or more modern cultures) begin their path to higher nature through a certain helplessness. Some things do not want to be the way one would like them to be. And in a certain sense (not intellectually, but emotionally), they realize that they cannot achieve something specific under the current circumstances. From there, some begin to reach for something higher. They suddenly seek magical rituals to fulfill certain desires. For example, there are rituals in which certain magical operations are performed, most of which favor lower goals. (e.g., promotion, etc.) Many often first immerse themselves in the usual mainstream "New Age" scene, taking occultism less seriously in the sense of a divine science, but rather to achieve personal goals. There are often lists of many rituals on the internet. Instructions for sigil magic and other very basic magical operations. It is often unclear to beginners why certain magical tools, ingredients, etc. are used at all. They are almost completely unaware of the deeper meaning of the analogies behind certain ingredients, i.e., why a certain crystal, salt, candle, etc. is used for a certain ritual or why gold often plays an important role in magical rituals, etc. (Admittingly, some rituals are very bogus too; But ultimately, it isn't the ritual that decides the outcome, it's you)

2. Depending on how talented (= imaginative and immersing) these people are, they find that the magical operations serve their purpose. But very quickly something strange happens: the deeper they delve, the more frequently they are suddenly confronted with problems in life. The fulfilled magical operations also carry risks and can cause problems. The more imaginative the person is, the easier it is for them to accidentally and subconsciously manifest problems or create obstacles. It's like a pull: As soon as you start, basically negative thoughts can pretty much manifest as soon as you think them. Some people go insane because of this. Suddenly, they will realize that they can achieve anything, but at the same time, they see that not every wish is necessarily what they really want. They realize: "Hey, what I wished for has come true, but somehow... I didn't want that". The fears of having negative thoughts likewise cause a forced awareness of their thoughts and to become more positive. They begin to differentiate between what they really want and what are merely short-term satisfactions that look good in their fantasy but, in their current state of experience, are suddenly not what they really want at all. The many sayings of "Careful what you wish for" aren't just random. They do appeal to this very issue.

3. From here, the re-decision begins: Either you leave the whole path behind you. You recognize a great danger in it and want nothing more to do with it, especially after certain magical operations left you with a traumatic experience (yes, this can happen). I'd say, this happens often and those people are simply just not ready yet. They'll probably even warn you about any occult science or deny its deeper purpose. Or they become overconfident and think they are invincible, which one will get quickly humbled for btw (karmically speaking). In the aftermath, some of them likewise turn away from occult science or they will still remain in this (as most call it) "black magic" area, less focused on satisfying their lower goals, and achieved a more humbled awareness of the spiritual safeguards that exist. Many lodges and orders out there with strong political influence in our world happen to be one of those: Luciferic black magicians. Then we have ahrimanic black magicians, who are incredibly dangerous. They have no deeper soul engagement. Most of these can't even perform a successful ritual, so they'll instead "build" it from the grounds-up from materia. Hence, they tend to have a certain hatred towards the old, luciferic order that still has a strong influence in our world. They truly want to eliminate everything spiritual in that sense. Those are the same people parading around that spiritualism is evil, bogus or fake and we all need ScienceTM.

Or, and this is probably the interesting outcome, you begin to delve deeper into the whole thing: away from New Age occultism and toward a deeper, more spiritual understanding. From this point on, most people begin to place the satisfaction of lower goals through rituals more and more in the background, whereas spiritual development becomes much more relevant to them parallel with the life experiences they are going through right now. And from this point on, I think someone actually becomes more mature to receive higher knowledge.

I think the important credo to follow here is, what I mentioned earlier:

Another thing I do notice is the refrain from interferring with the karma of another person in Hermeticism. It is the act of helping and guiding another person, but without judging or swaying them away from their path. It's an interesting perspective, but even moreso in regards to spiritual inner activity, but I think it is and should be our duty to intervene in some way, actually. Not in a way that deviates them from their path, but instead opens up the possibility for them to get a more enliving, conscious experience of their own path and what it entails. And then it is the decision of that person whether they will now change trajectory after recognizing consciously what's possible, what's not, what it entails and what it does not, what issues they might face, etc. So, not persuading them into another path or label, but giving them the instruments in order to make their own fully, conscious free decision.

But this only truly works if the person finds that own, inner motivation, enthusiasm to actively look for it. Another saying, often heard is:
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

We don't need to appeal. I know the urge is big, and it's also that most organizations need to thrive financially, hence the constraint of the system likewise forces them to do just that. I'm pretty happy that this community here is small, free and unburdened by financial or authoritarian constraints. I can already predict, as soon as it would get popular and receive more attention, the "pull" to monetize it is high, and thus the essential meaning would be getting more and more lost in a stack of appeals to potential new customers.

[Federica]

Yes, that's an interesting and important point. And I remember it being briefly discussed in relation to Tomberg. I try to give a possible perspective here:

Basically, there is an old saying: "Don't throw your pearls before swine" Although this is very outdated and probably no longer relevant, it is based on the (still relevant) idea that there will simply be people who are not yet ready for this path and therefore little or nothing will be able to convince them, and it isn't much of use to try to convince them or make it appealing for them. On the contrary, "wanting to convince" or "making it appealing" can very quickly be a dangerous problem, because the tendency to influence the person on their path, even to lie to them or "lure" (as many occult paths do, unfortunately) them, can obstruct the idea of the spiritual path and also be a heavy burden on your own karma. I want to clarify this more, so you get the context:

The "lure" aspect was a very interesting occult motive (although it has to do with the ahrimanic and luciferic forces), which is not often talked about. It's a thing in many secret orders and lodges who recruited some outsiders in the hopes of keeping the divine torch alive, but still keep with the times. Basically, there were teachers out there who would, on purpose, lure newcomers into achieving certain egoish goals via magical operations (rituals, etc) to awake interest. Similar to a cult, they would appeal to their deepest desires, anything really, and lure these into their orders. Sure, I believe many of these outsiders still declined, but I assume quite a lot more immediately agreed to it, simply thanks to the appeal. These teachers would then go and teach them all basics found in many occult paths, then the students would rise and complete degrees. However, in the course of time, these students (as expected by the teachers) would sooner or later become very dissatisfied with their egoic goals, and worse, experience traumatic events that made them either quit occultism entirely or cause a change of heart within themselves, away from satisfying lower goals and towards the Divine Science, the Spiritual Science.

Although this was an interesting didactic approach, it did not bear much fruit and made things even worse as there were another kind of people that resulted because of this: black magicians. Most of them became luciferic, nowadays more and more younger generations in these orders and lodges happen to be very ahrimanic black "magicians" (to be more concrete: they can't really perform rituals or magic most of the time (they lack the deeper soul engagement), they even think it's bogus, so they instead re-built everything to make it real, via materialistic concepts and technology). And I'd argue, these are much more dangerous in our current system, they even pose a threat to the "old" elite of luciferic black magicians who held most of the influence for many centuries. While the latter (luciferic) established an organized order built on ideas of freedom and individualism, and (despite their lower motives) possess spiritual awareness and deeper and true soul engagement, the former (ahrimanic) are now destroying all of it and attempt to impose and create a world of isolation and fear, they have no true and deep soul engagement with the spiritual at all. I like to call it the "Ahrimanic Buddha" sometimes. This isn't supposed to be an attack on Buddhism, but instead how the ultimate technique is total isolation and "forgetting yourself" (=> no-self) entirely, it is total stagnation and isolation in order to avoid suffering and fear, to let go of all responsibilities. If you know the anime, Soul Eater, I'd like to recommend you this scene here:



If one can't see how very obviously Ahriman speaks through that character, I don't know what else could. (Although, yes, luciferic tendencies are there as well)

You already perceive this with all the slowly, but upcoming attempts to take certain essential rights of freedom away, to have everything "guided" by something, while your own responsibilites are supposed to slowly, but surely diminish. All to take fear away, to increase "security" and "safety" and have things done for you rather than you having to deal with them on your own. But ironically, it will make things worse: chaos and madness will start to reign more and more the landscape, because that's ultimately what they truly believe. That there's no order, no higher truths, hence they need to built it themselves and believe people need to be guided by artifical rules and concepts. Asura (the character above) is at least very self-honest in that regard, but most people living within ahrimanic forces are not.

The Internet is the most obvious and first target, but in the following years we'll see much more constraints put on us than ever before. As soon as the older generations leave this planet and the ahrimanic forces take over, oh boy, there will be a lot of unsettling things happening. I think 2033 is indeed a good anchor point here, actually, speaking of it. It makes sense to me. But I wouldn't see it as a fixed date thing where it all will unfold in 2033. Instead, it'll be progressively moving towards it, and if we don't keep awareness of it and have a bad memory, we'll not really be able to tell the difference between now and 2033 except if more time passes (like in 2040 I'd assume the differences become very obvious; similar like how certain trends were easier to distinguish later on the more time passed).

So, the issue with making something more appealing is a "high-risk" reward. I believe it can work, but ultimately, the risk of such a person falling deep is very high. And thus, newer occult orders refuse to take in complete outsiders, and instead focus on those who are ripe for the Great Work.

Anyway, regarding enthusiasm: I can report the following, which is often found in the occult scene, who were previously not scientifically versed, but aren't really affiliated with Christianity either (or, basically: Are (more often) formal Christians, but not really that much into the doctrine or know only very superficial aspects of it):

1. Many (at least in the West or more modern cultures) begin their path to higher nature through a certain helplessness. Some things do not want to be the way one would like them to be. And in a certain sense (not intellectually, but emotionally), they realize that they cannot achieve something specific under the current circumstances. From there, some begin to reach for something higher. They suddenly seek magical rituals to fulfill certain desires. For example, there are rituals in which certain magical operations are performed, most of which favor lower goals. (e.g., promotion, etc.) Many often first immerse themselves in the usual mainstream "New Age" scene, taking occultism less seriously in the sense of a divine science, but rather to achieve personal goals. There are often lists of many rituals on the internet. Instructions for sigil magic and other very basic magical operations. It is often unclear to beginners why certain magical tools, ingredients, etc. are used at all. They are almost completely unaware of the deeper meaning of the analogies behind certain ingredients, i.e., why a certain crystal, salt, candle, etc. is used for a certain ritual or why gold often plays an important role in magical rituals, etc. (Admittingly, some rituals are very bogus too; But ultimately, it isn't the ritual that decides the outcome, it's you)

2. Depending on how talented (= imaginative and immersing) these people are, they find that the magical operations serve their purpose. But very quickly something strange happens: the deeper they delve, the more frequently they are suddenly confronted with problems in life. The fulfilled magical operations also carry risks and can cause problems. The more imaginative the person is, the easier it is for them to accidentally and subconsciously manifest problems or create obstacles. It's like a pull: As soon as you start, basically negative thoughts can pretty much manifest as soon as you think them. Some people go insane because of this. Suddenly, they will realize that they can achieve anything, but at the same time, they see that not every wish is necessarily what they really want. They realize: "Hey, what I wished for has come true, but somehow... I didn't want that". The fears of having negative thoughts likewise cause a forced awareness of their thoughts and to become more positive. They begin to differentiate between what they really want and what are merely short-term satisfactions that look good in their fantasy but, in their current state of experience, are suddenly not what they really want at all. The many sayings of "Careful what you wish for" aren't just random. They do appeal to this very issue.

3. From here, the re-decision begins: Either you leave the whole path behind you. You recognize a great danger in it and want nothing more to do with it, especially after certain magical operations left you with a traumatic experience (yes, this can happen). I'd say, this happens often and those people are simply just not ready yet. They'll probably even warn you about any occult science or deny its deeper purpose. Or they become overconfident and think they are invincible, which one will get quickly humbled for btw (karmically speaking). In the aftermath, some of them likewise turn away from occult science or they will still remain in this (as most call it) "black magic" area, less focused on satisfying their lower goals, and achieved a more humbled awareness of the spiritual safeguards that exist. Many lodges and orders out there with strong political influence in our world happen to be one of those: Luciferic black magicians. Then we have ahrimanic black magicians, who are incredibly dangerous. They have no deeper soul engagement. Most of these can't even perform a successful ritual, so they'll instead "build" it from the grounds-up from materia. Hence, they tend to have a certain hatred towards the old, luciferic order that still has a strong influence in our world. They truly want to eliminate everything spiritual in that sense. Those are the same people parading around that spiritualism is evil, bogus or fake and we all need ScienceTM.

Or, and this is probably the interesting outcome, you begin to delve deeper into the whole thing: away from New Age occultism and toward a deeper, more spiritual understanding. From this point on, most people begin to place the satisfaction of lower goals through rituals more and more in the background, whereas spiritual development becomes much more relevant to them parallel with the life experiences they are going through right now. And from this point on, I think someone actually becomes more mature to receive higher knowledge.

I think the important credo to follow here is, what I mentioned earlier:

Another thing I do notice is the refrain from interferring with the karma of another person in Hermeticism. It is the act of helping and guiding another person, but without judging or swaying them away from their path. It's an interesting perspective, but even moreso in regards to spiritual inner activity, but I think it is and should be our duty to intervene in some way, actually. Not in a way that deviates them from their path, but instead opens up the possibility for them to get a more enliving, conscious experience of their own path and what it entails. And then it is the decision of that person whether they will now change trajectory after recognizing consciously what's possible, what's not, what it entails and what it does not, what issues they might face, etc. So, not persuading them into another path or label, but giving them the instruments in order to make their own fully, conscious free decision.

But this only truly works if the person finds that own, inner motivation, enthusiasm to actively look for it. Another saying, often heard is:
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

We don't need to appeal. I know the urge is big, and it's also that most organizations need to thrive financially, hence the constraint of the system likewise forces them to do just that. I'm pretty happy that this community here is small, free and unburdened by financial or authoritarian constraints. I can already predict, as soon as it would get popular and receive more attention, the "pull" to monetize it is high, and thus the essential meaning would be getting more and more lost in a stack of appeals to potential new customers.

Thanks for weighing in, Kaje. Sure, I agree that wanting to forcibly convince people, lie to them, and lure them is a bad idea. Not so much because we risk diverting them from their karma (I think we need to be careful with this idea, I will develop in a second) but because the entire motive and the related deeds would be inherently disharmonious - sinful, if you will.

The question of influencing or not influencing people's karma is tricky because we risk feeling established in a vantage point where we imagine to be accessing the person’s karma, and that we may operate on it as a surgeon operating on a patient. Not saying this is what you mean, but just to clarify what I mean: in reality we are enmeshed with that karma, and our every decision and action is a step in its joint unfolding, just as much as a non-action would be, in concomitance with countless other influences. As I see it, the question: ”would this intervention deviate them from their path or not?” is not the right one, as it seems to rely on a third-person-perspective implicit assumption. If we orient toward the future and let our motives and actions be guided by the morally-qualified freedom found there, we don’t need to worry about diverting others from their karma. Even if it appears like a concern about the future, it's in reality a past-oriented attitude, that overlooks the continuity of supersensible life that we have in common with the other soul. It’s like saying that, as a medical doctor, one should be careful treating a sick person with the intention of healing, not to disturb their karmic necessity to go through illness. Instead, the doctor, the patient, and much else with them, are all inextricably part of one and the same stream of karma, not the other way around (not that there are floating individual karmic destinies that can either follow their pre-intended course or be disturbed by external interventions).

This said, in conclusion I agree things should not be forced through deception or through customization and monetization, as you say. What I was thinking about was actually on another register. I have in mind examples of people with a keen interest in inquiring about the nature of reality, and also an openness to the spiritual. For example last year we discussed for a time with Marco Masi on Substack. His tagline is “A post-material physicist in search of an integral vision of science, philosophy, and spirituality”- For the records, we reported some of the discussions here. Marco is one of those who found the mentioned essays unimpressive. He didn't see anything in there. Another case is Eugene. I may be wrong, but I don’t remember any particular “doll dressing” referred to the essays on his part. He would gladly present and discuss certain specific topics rooted in his own interests and reflections, and he would debate, but I don’t recall him commenting, asking questions, or specifically objecting after reading any of the essays in question (maybe with the exception of TCT, long time ago). Perhaps he browsed them, but in the end didn’t find them relevant. There are other examples, here and elsewhere, of people who clearly have a spiritual sense, and a mobile intellect and yet remain unresponsive. Hence my thoughts about the possible 'captivating power' of some applied spiritual science, similar to what Steiner did when talking to doctors, farmers, priests, teachers, etcetera. I would add that doing what one can to fill one’s life of interrelations with these questions does not contradict the saying “when the student is ready, the teacher appears”. The teacher will certainly appear in due time for the person in question, and our possible interaction with the person is simply one instance of steering and being steered within the larger shared flow of destiny, among the countless interrelations.

On the activities of occult orders and their recruitment I can’t comment much. My thought is that, as scary and alarming these activities and figures are, as you describe them, the most pressing adversarial figures, the ones requiring our most urgent attention, are the ones gravitating around our own spiritual activity, which are nourished and empowered by our wrongdoings, weaknesses, and ingrained habits, physical and mental. As you said, the path goes through placing the satisfaction of lower goals more and more in the background, whereas spiritual development comes much more to the forefront. When this work is in primary focus, the tools for recognizing and relating to evil at other scales are eventually built.

[AshvinP]

This said, in conclusion I agree things should not be forced through deception or through customization and monetization, as you say. What I was thinking about was actually on another register. I have in mind examples of people with a keen interest in inquiring about the nature of reality, and also an openness to the spiritual. For example last year we discussed for a time with Marco Masi on Substack. His tagline is “A post-material physicist in search of an integral vision of science, philosophy, and spirituality”- For the records, we reported some of the discussions here. Marco is one of those who found the mentioned essays unimpressive. He didn't see anything in there. Another case is Eugene. I may be wrong, but I don’t remember any particular “doll dressing” referred to the essays on his part. He would gladly present and discuss certain specific topics rooted in his own interests and reflections, and he would debate, but I don’t recall him commenting, asking questions, or specifically objecting after reading any of the essays in question (maybe with the exception of TCT, long time ago). Perhaps he browsed them, but in the end didn’t find them relevant. There are other examples, here and elsewhere, of people who clearly have a spiritual sense, and a mobile intellect and yet remain unresponsive. Hence my thoughts about the possible 'captivating power' of some applied spiritual science, similar to what Steiner did when talking to doctors, farmers, priests, teachers, etcetera. I would add that doing what one can to fill one’s life of interrelations with these questions does not contradict the saying “when the student is ready, the teacher appears”. The teacher will certainly appear in due time for the person in question, and our possible interaction with the person is simply one instance of steering and being steered within the larger shared flow of destiny, among the countless interrelations.

With these examples you have given Kaje, I suppose our idea of finding relevance in the essays and dressing up mental dolls is highly misaligned. MM and Eugene (who are quite similar, in this context) stand out to me as stellar examples of those who find the content of phenomenological inquiry and esoteric science highly relevant, are quite interested in exploring the resulting intuitions, but seem to get mired in the stage of dressing up mental dolls. The fact that MM engaged in a relatively lengthy back-and-forth on the esoteric content before getting fed up with the 'toxic style' seems to confirm that. Given his extensive study of Aurobindo, it is clear he had been dressing up mental dolls in this domain well before we entered the discussion.

To be clear, we are all on the gradient of doll mode. When we study Steiner's descriptions of Saturn, Sun, Lemuria, Atlantis, esoteric physiology, and so on, for example, we are often putting those descriptions over mental dolls without the needed inner focus and intensity to try it on ourselves, i.e., to introspectively probe the descriptions and feel how they overlap with the contextual layers of our imaginative being. So I'm not trying to use MM or Eugene as some special cases of doll life. The main element that truly differentiates some souls on the inner path from others is that the former remains conscious that they are in doll mode, and that there are certain inner limitations associated with this mode which should be gradually loosened. Without that self-conscious element, the line between doll mode and deeper spiritual insight becomes increasingly blurred and conflated together.

When we remain conscious of that distinction and, therefore, can also recognize when those we are engaging with have lapsed into doll mode, what can we do? We don't need to repeat the same points over and over again, to keep hammering the same examples and illustrations. There is surely endless room for creatively elaborating and expanding the introspective enzymes. We can try to resonate more intimately with their perspective, to also sense the general trajectory of their thinking and feeling, and adapt our efforts accordingly. But none of that is a deviation from the introspective approach, only a further refinement of it. We don't shift the entire focus of the effort, because we know there is zero chance of progress without the soul becoming more conscious of its doll mode, and the introspective effort is the only way for such self-consciousness to awaken.

Also, from a higher perspective, such discussions with MM or Eugene shouldn't be viewed as complete failures. The discussions may have collapsed after some time, yet the introspective seeds were planted and can germinate further in mysterious ways. We can entrust that germination to wiser powers within the interrelated flows of destinies. This is a facet of "don't throw your pearls before swine" (which probably sounds a lot harsher than it is intended). Sometimes we need to feel when it is best to pause the discussion, to embrace and keep open a 'silent space', to refrain from expressing certain ideas, or to present them in a certain way and at a certain time, and so on. Of course, expanding this intuitive feeling for how to conduct the discussions is itself only possible through more introspective development, as we get a better feel for the shared soul dynamics animating a given perspective and line of thinking.

[Kaje977]

Thank you for your reply, Federica.

Interestingly, what I intuitively recognized in my last reply seems to be something that Steiner tried to illustrate a long time ago, without me really knowing that Steiner had spoken about it in detail. I found this about half an hour ago today, and it seems to hit the nail on the head. Perhaps his words can also help to broaden the perspective on the subject a little. Yes, his quote is not necessarily directed at people who already have an inclination and longing for the spiritual, but I think it still applies to those who stubbornly refuse to at least consider it and are therefore not yet ready.

Perhaps I am much more direct in this situation (given my experience with “debates” on other topics in the past), but normally I would observe the following: if a person really wants to understand and learn in order to embark on the path, they will ask real questions. They will actually sit down and try to block out everything they have known and learned so far. Of course, this doesn't always work for beginners, especially if there are deeply ingrained aspects (in their blind spot) that they can't just switch off because they are not really aware of them. Nevertheless, you will clearly sense that they are sincerely trying to understand, and as a result, they will not really abandon the topic. They are even quite obsessed with it and have a certain fear that it could be true, that there is more to it, but certain egoistic tendencies try to reject this out of fear. This means that the discussion that arises as a result could (not must be) similar to a kind of defensive reaction. The ego rebels, while deep down, one already senses that there could be something to it.

Those who are genuinely interested will sometimes even comment on the essays with certain adjectives that show the depth and significance they find in this work: "interesting", "amazing", “impressive" etc., and therefore want to know more about it or ask for introductory literature. So there will be a certain soul activity that wants to harmonize with what you, Cleric and Ashvin, are working on and writing in your essays. Although it is not easy to recognize this intuitively from black and white text, you can see quite quickly whether they are really searching or just curious. Yes, even from written texts. Although it is more difficult, you can actually sense it.

When I first read (e.g.) Jim Cross's answers, I knew immediately: No, this man will never accept anything you have to say. Not in the future, never. It felt like a natural intuition, and indeed, Jim Cross never changed his attitude. With Eugene, on the other hand, I could immediately see (despite his initially (2021-2023) very reluctant attitude) that he has a genuine interest (and he also comes from a spiritual background), but he is (or was?) still far too immersed in no-self concepts, which is why something in him wants to reject Spiritual Science. Probably also personal experiences that he made that are felt deeply and strongly, and thus are hard to let go off. I can only speculate, but I assume that deep in his soul he has found a hidden satisfaction in avoiding the suffering. Although he repeatedly mentions that he acknowledges suffering, his solution is that we must get rid of the ego, as he believes it is the cause of all suffering. However, by avoiding it, one transforms into what Kishin Asura appears to be in the video I posted above. The no-mind exercise thus becomes not a prerequisite for higher truths, but a form of isolation, a quiet place forever and ever where nothing can disturb you, it is so to speak, the self-created end of the ripcord. This is the "safe ground" in which one can reside. In a stressful life in the modern West, it is of course quite understandable why Buddhism and similar practices are making a comeback. They don't want to deal with suffering hand-on, but rather avoid it, learn to "stop imagining" and instead slowly become ahrimanic vessels. This is what Eugene wrote long ago:

I rather feel a motivation to grow and connect with the Divine on other more subtle layers where its Wisdom, Beauty, Mystery and Love reside, and I'm not so much interested in the astral structures and beings. I don't know how those subtle layers are called, and it does not matter anyway.

By the way, in the traditional Christianity any communication with the astral and even angelic hierarchy beings was strongly discouraged and it was even considered quite dangerous because those beings can easily deceive humans ("And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" 2 Cor). The only safe way in this tradition is to communicate with God directly.

My intuition reading his response tells me here: "I fear the Unknown". And deepening it, you will get analogous intuitions such as: "I want evidence", "I want proof", "Show me the results or evidence of anthroposophical medicine" etc.
If he ever steers away from this soul constitution, then the essays will actually click for him. Guaranteed 100%. By the way, I'd argue, most of us do fear the unknown. Just look at how "planned" everything is nowadays around us. Plan-Driven Development in project management, the fear of taking risks (even small and arbitrary ones), asking out your crush, humorizing everything to subvert the seriousness of the situation, working in teams, talking to other people, etc. The only way to combat fear is, courage.

Witnessing Eugene's post history, I did see that he did change his trajectory a bit and later on seems to be have been much more welcoming to the essays. In some cases, he still falls back into his old cognitive mode, but he clearly did change in retrospect of his earlier posts (and is even much earlier posts on Google Groups). Of course, likewise it's possible that he was just larping, who knows, and just waited for an opportunity to attack the essays rhetorically. Who knows. But does it really matter? I don't think the essays needs to find an audience. It's the other way around. The right audience will find the essays, hopefully.

All in all, if the people looking for answers continously demonstrate, that they re-frame their questions in such a way to appeal to their own pre-constructed views of the world and refuse to even consider, for a moment, to abolish them, the discussion should necessarily stop. And not go into lenghty debates that stretch 40 pages. Sorry, if that may sound harsh, but I do think it really bears no fruit. On the other hand, sometimes it can also bring forth some new intuitions, but ultimately at that point it should no longer be about the person refusing to engage with the essays, but the intuition resulting from the discussion itself from this.

In times gone by, it was absolutely forbidden to perform any magical operation without being in harmony with the leaders of the world, the “earthly government”, also known as the great masters of the so-called white lodge. All occult schools, all schools that exist at all and all teachings can only be the lowest step towards higher development; on this step, higher and higher steps must be built up, right up to the actual leaders of earthly development. Those who not only know wisdom but also “rule” the earth in its development, who let wisdom flow into earthly evolution, are on the highest level. They alone are able to indicate for each individual action, based on spiritual forces, whether it disturbs or does not disturb in the whole context.

When you build a house and lay out the plan for the house, each individual workman on the house must work in harmony with the plan. And if someone comes along and decides to make a window different from what is provided for in the plan, no matter how beautiful and magnificent that window may be, the whole house is disturbed. If anyone in the world wants to accomplish something through spiritual powers, no matter how significant and grandiose it may be, if it does not fit into the original plan of earthly development, it disturbs earthly development and sometimes throws it back for a long time. A man who applies no spiritual forces can never disturb this plan of earthly development. And why not? Because in relation to spiritual forces, what people do without knowledge of the higher worlds is to natural phenomena as a house is to a house. Whatever is ruined by the weather, by heat and sunlight, must be ruined; that is self-evident in a certain sense. So it is with the intentions of those who have no connection with the higher world. But the actions of those who have some connection with the higher worlds behave, when they do something that is not in harmony with the spiritual world, like someone who hits something with a hammer. So what is necessary for the progress of the human race to take place? When occult forces are applied, it is absolutely necessary that the connection with the central spiritual powers of the world be maintained, and it is absolutely necessary that the spiritual forces not be delivered to anyone who does not want to seek this connection. It is connected with this that in all real occult schools a secret is held over the imparting of spiritual forces, and that no secrets are delivered to anyone who does not undertake to maintain the connection with the leading spiritual entities.

Only the “central government” of the earth has the possibility of knowing what is at stake. And this must be known if one is to apply spiritual forces. If one imparts anything to another in an unauthorized manner, whereby this other person can oppose the great plan of earth development, then one commits the first kind of black magic act. Therefore, the following is a basic principle: The first black magic act is the betrayal (= German: Verraten) of occult secrets. Gossip and divulging of occult secrets is the first case of black magic, because in doing so you surrender the occult secrets to those who oppose the central leadership of the earth's development because you do not know the context. Where does this occur, where does it become real? It becomes real wherever occult secrets are used in the service not of the entire earthly leadership but of some limited body that does not want to have any connection with the earthly leadership that serves humanity. If, for example, a person receives the things that he is only allowed to use when he has overcome all national and racial prejudices, earlier delivered, he uses them before he has overcome these prejudices and before he has an idea of what it means to be a “homeless person”, then exactly the same thing that is otherwise white magic goes into the service of black magic. Exactly the same. If that which is intended to serve humanity is used in the service of a separate race, for example to give that race supremacy over the earth, then on a large scale that is black magic, because it does not happen in accordance with the way the earth is run. It is the first requirement: to go beyond what connects us only to one part of humanity. For a modern white magician, this is the first principle. Man should not strive for unselfishness, but for love for all mankind. He can extend the field of his love. He can do that, and that is what it is all about.

(From GA101)

I know this is a difficutlt topic, but I sincerely believe that we should definitely refrain of trying to make things appealing to those who have no enthusiasm or connection to Spiritual Science. Their time will come, as I believe the way that they at least interacted with these topics show that they are in a certain progress of maturing for Spiritual Science. They just haven't found the right Soul Entanglement yet, I believe. Other than that, the best we can do is offer them what Cleric, you, Ashvin have been offering so far. Those who seek, will find value in it and actually engage with the topic.

Regarding Marco, I can only intuit one of the following things:

• Despite being spiritual in a certain sense, they still live within a learned set of terms, concepts, ideas (similar to Eugene) they grew up with and can't let go of. Especially academics.
• Often, reading a single essay can often be very confusing, irritating even for newcomers, especially if it's a long text and there's a missing greater context. In the past, I already recommended, that having reference links to the other essays and replies or writing a (freely available) book might probably be more helpful. It might help newcomers to recognize the greater context instead of having to browse around a large forum where all the topics and replies are scattered around.
• Or, they aren't really genuinely spiritual. To them, spirituality is just a different name for a reductionistic spiritualism

Regarding point 2, I think there might definitely be ways for improvement. I don't believe it will make much of a difference, but I do think that it might help to put the great and insightful replies and essays of you three into a single book to help to grasp the greater context. Of course, one can argue: Well, if they don't find the time and effort to browse through the forums, they're probably not interested either way. But I see it somewhat nuanced: Most of us have jobs, some have parenting to do, we've got not much time nowadays or only a slice of it which is not enough to browse everything to get a thorough understanding what this is all about. We are on a hurry. A big book or a series of books (as PDFs) where many of the questions many beginners have are answered and put into context. Again, yes, they could simply just engage with the essays, but they don't, because they don't feel a relevant connection. In fact, they might even believe that you are talking and researching about something entirely different than they do. Putting it into a greater context, could possibly help to lift the Spirit a bit.

[Federica]

With these examples you have given Kaje, I suppose our idea of finding relevance in the essays and dressing up mental dolls is highly misaligned. MM and Eugene (who are quite similar, in this context) stand out to me as stellar examples of those who find the content of phenomenological inquiry and esoteric science highly relevant, are quite interested in exploring the resulting intuitions, but seem to get mired in the stage of dressing up mental dolls.

Yes, they stand our as those stellar examples IN GENERAL, in how they approach their preferred topics. However, remember that my point is specifically about the mentioned essays: and THERE they did NOT arrive at doll mode. For instance. Marco wrote about the essays:

"You want me to read that essay? I began to read the first part some time ago and didn’t perceive it as something written by someone “knowing the truth from within” and, therefore, didn’t feel it necessary to proceed further."

You see? He didn't even find it relevant, so he couldn't even engage the intellect enough to go into doll mode. He dropped before. You speak of how you train to adopt the other person perspective, but in this case it looks like you have completely forgotten about this (more probably you just dismissed it):

The bolded is also how I understand it. What I was trying to say is that there exists a step before the mental dolls are dressed up with the apparel. In order for the intellect to dress up those dolls, it needs to find the content highly relevant. Otherwise even that will not happen. What I said is, in many cases the intellect doesn’t even find the ideas relevant, and so the dolls are left in their loungewear. Now I hope you agree that the intellect is the inevitable initial intermediary. The ideas have to exert some appeal to it, to begin with, because the intellect is the one coming when the doorbell rings. There is nobody else awake anyway, at that point. And my sense is that these 'other ones' who were unimpressed with the essays didn't even make it to the doll step. Because it requires some seriousness and engagement, to dress up those dolls, you will agree. If the practical readers of PoF mentioned by Steiner were dressing dolls, it’s because at least they had found PoF highly relevant. But again, the problem with our readers today is that this has not happened. That's why I can’t agree that the universal evolutionary obstacles is the only place to look. The intellect needs to be captivated, that’s the first step. Without that, no fitting room, but also no doll show - nothing.

Ok, but then it sounds to me like you are speaking of people who aren't even interested in deeper questions of science, philosophy, epistemology, phenomenology, idealism, and such to begin with, and therefore wouldn't find the general ideas relevant. I think the modern spiritual path presupposes souls who are karmically developed enough to kindle an interest in such questions and actively go searching for answers. Even if we wanted to coax this initial 'captivation' out of someone, for some reason, we shouldn’t expect it to be possible. We certainly shouldn't invest imaginative resources in figuring out how to accomplish the undesirable and impossible, in my view.

So I repeat, these people, like Marco ARE interested in the deeper questions, but for some reason, facing these phenomenological essays, they don't even make it to the doll step. They drop before.

[AshvinP]

With these examples you have given Kaje, I suppose our idea of finding relevance in the essays and dressing up mental dolls is highly misaligned. MM and Eugene (who are quite similar, in this context) stand out to me as stellar examples of those who find the content of phenomenological inquiry and esoteric science highly relevant, are quite interested in exploring the resulting intuitions, but seem to get mired in the stage of dressing up mental dolls.

Yes, they stand our as those stellar examples IN GENERAL, in how they approach their preferred topics. However, remember that my point is specifically about the mentioned essays: and THERE they did NOT arrive at doll mode. For instance. Marco wrote about the essays:

"You want me to read that essay? I began to read the first part some time ago and didn’t perceive it as something written by someone “knowing the truth from within” and, therefore, didn’t feel it necessary to proceed further."

You see? He didn't even find it relevant, so he couldn't even engage the intellect enough to go into doll mode. He dropped before. You speak of how you train to adopt the other person perspective, but in this case it looks like you have completely forgotten about this (more probably you just dismissed it):

Such a comment becomes transparent when we try to feel how he had already been dressing up mental dolls in the phenomenological (Goethean) and esoteric (e.g. Aurobindo) domains for a long time. That is exactly the symptom of living consistently in doll mode within the domain of esoteric correspondences, which, as every occultist warns, can often lead to an inflated sense of pride in one's 'knowledge' and corresponding lack of interest and enthusiasm for new content. It is then simply assumed, from the beginning, that this new content is reiterating the doll gestures that have already been thoroughly explored. So it's not that he didn't make it to doll mode, but his lack of interest was a symptom of living in doll mode for a sustained period and subtly confusing its experience for phenomenology and spiritual vision. And this has also been the case with many others we have engaged with, like Eugene, and also many Anthroposophists that I have engaged with.

Things are pretty simple when we try to view them from the perspective of the shared inner dynamics, and when we have become sensitive to how doll mode interfaces with our spiritual pursuits on a daily basis. We then also realize it is nearly impossible to imagine that MM, Eugene, etc. would suddenly be sparked with interest and enthusiasm for the spiritual scientific path by being exposed to 'applied spiritual science'. If anything, as Kaje noted above, this only reinforces their fear, suspicion, and reluctance to explore the unknown degrees of imaginative freedom. We have seen it over and over when Steiner quotes are provided, and people are asked to contemplate and share their thoughts. They simply have no introspective foundation to understand from what states such quotes could even be communicated, let alone how the content is relevant to their real-time spiritual development. When the mystical curvature is firmly in place and steering the flow, such things are viewed as positively taking the soul away from deeper spirituality. So this engages the intellect in the entirely wrong direction.