Jordan Peterson “Beyond Order” book excerpt: Aeon of Horus, Osiris, Star Wars, Jung and Crowley

[AshvinP]

You seem offended by observation of willful blindness. Is your shadow integration complete? Can it be complete? Could the feeling of offense be a defense mechanism of the Shadow against it's integration in the light of consciousness?

Just to clarify here, I am only "offended" (more accurately, disappointed) by suggestions to diminish or otherwise marginalize the work JP is doing, because that sort of person with that sort of influence is extremely rare and there is no shortage of reasons for him to bow out of the spiritual discussion completely. In a recent interview he relates that he wakes up in agony every day due to Akathisia and has to live in "15 minute increments" to make it through the day. The only reason he doesn't go to emergency room every day is because he spent 1.5 years in various hospitals and he knows they cannot do anything to relieve the agony. Even the best among us can fall from heroism into irrelevance or villainy if we are not careful and gracious in our approach to what they offer us. I am not suggesting your comments here are making it back to JP or anything like that, but they may certainly influence those who have only heard of him in passing and have not yet considered much of his work.

Akathisia Bingo! This is why I instantly recognized him papably as a "wounded healer." No one should therefore less value the healing message, However, the shadow should be recognized as well and held, with compassion, in balance.

This was a result of taking benzodiazepines for too long, as prescribed by his doctor, which he put out into the public even before this latest tragedy. He has always been forthright about his struggles with depression throughout his life as well.

You and Santeri have a knack for formulating criticisms with a lot of style and very little substance. It's a real skill and I am impressed yet you should not be surprised when others criticize your criticisms for being superficial. It's not always "shadow projection" and what not, sometimes it's just a sense that people are typing a lot but not actually saying anything.

[Soul_of_Shu]

OK. I admit I have much yet to learn about your philosophy

Well that's the stumbling block, for as Lou has often reminded us, he's not doing philosophy, rather he's a story teller. Sometimes a story is either resonated with or not, requiring some suspension of disbelief, and has nothing to do with any kind of thought process that philosophy entails. And if you're not resonating with it, no amount of trying to transcribe it into a philosophy to be learned is going to make it so. There are certain very admired and gifted story tellers that I've tried to read and relate to, but no matter how often I try it seems I just can't seem to feel the world through their sensibilities, and one must just let it be. Not that this is necessarily the case in your interaction with Lou, just that it may well be.

[SanteriSatama]

Thanks Santeri, the linguistics were interesting to me.

Interesting to me too, so thank you!

All I was asking was on your view of what the unity of consciousness means.

Continuum, if the question is presented in the context of mathematics, etc. scientific terminology.

if that collective is something

Oh, now I see. The concept of 'collective' already in itself supposes a collection of atoms, individuals, etc. discrete objects. Sorry for that. English language is so full of such traps with deeply imprinted structures that I try my best to speak away and around from while trying to communicate something different, but keep falling.

if these visions are coming from something self-aware

Quite obviously so, as awareness experiencing self-aware visions is self-aware. By definition, self-aware on all levels is a projection and a reflection. Anatman: "It" is not a "thing" with inherent existence.

Things: []
Process: <>.
Self: [<>].
Self <>.

Self-ing is not bound by things, but by moving and reflecting can create various boundaries for gnothi seauton of forms. Self is inseparable from movement of breathing, increasing and decreasing in various relations and proportions.

Does this integration mean that our perspective is encompassing more and more of the whole? Or it measures the degree of surrender to the unconscious flow together with the whole.

Yes.

[Cleric K]

Well that's the stumbling block, for as Lou has often reminded us, he's not doing philosophy, rather he's a story teller. Sometimes a story is either resonated with or not, requiring some suspension of disbelief, and has nothing to do with any kind of thought process that philosophy entails. And if you're not resonating with it, no amount of trying to transcribe it into a philosophy to be learned is going to make it so. There are certain very admired and gifted story tellers that I've tried to read and relate to, but no matter how often I try it seems I just can't seem to feel the world through their sensibilities, and one must just let it be. Not that this is necessarily the case in your interaction with Lou, just that it may well be.

I know Shu
Ever since Lou told me that cognitive contradictions don't bother him I'm no longer bothered either
I just tickled him today because I saw he was looking for the daily argue-dose

[SanteriSatama]

You and Santeri have a knack for formulating criticisms with a lot of style and very little substance. It's a real skill and I am impressed yet you should not be surprised when others criticize your criticisms for being superficial. It's not always "shadow projection" and what not, sometimes it's just a sense that people are typing a lot but not actually saying anything.

Well of course, as I've said many times, I'm process philosopher, not substance philosopher. My deepest sympathies are with the process JP is going through. My commentary is mostly about certain very ancient - and scale invariant - aspects of the process, which JP himself discusses, adding more information in terms of what I consider relevant to the process, including how we observe and discuss it, while not intending to limit where the process may lead our deeply feeling friend.

What you interpret as criticism is not necessarily intended as such.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I just tickled him today because I saw he was looking for the daily argue-dose

Go for it ... For whatever reason, I'm finding harder and harder to find the switch for argue-mode

[Cleric K]

Does this integration mean that our perspective is encompassing more and more of the whole? Or it measures the degree of surrender to the unconscious flow together with the whole.

Yes.

Yes to which one?

Quite obviously so, as awareness experiencing self-aware visions is self-aware. By definition, self-aware on all levels is a projection and a reflection. Anatman: "It" is not a "thing" with inherent existence.

Things: []
Process: <>.
Self: [<>].
Self <>.

Self-ing is not bound by things, but by moving and reflecting can create various boundaries for gnothi seauton of forms. Self is inseparable from movement of breathing, increasing and decreasing in various relations and proportions.

OK, so if I get what you are saying, the collective tribe spirit is a self-aware entity. And clearly with much more macro character - after all it knows where the game is, it can warn the humans about dangerous weather, it interacts with all the individual members of the tribe etc.
This has served well for the tribes. What about today? For example, do you feel like the Finnish Archangel has certain vision of the proper direction that individuals should be going into? Does it seem reasonable for example to turn to that spirit in prayer, in order to make yourself more receptive for its higher wisdom, such that your life can be aligned with a greater plan?

[Soul_of_Shu]

Spinning off of the original topic video, more musings on the Aeon of Horus ...

[SanteriSatama]

Yes to which one?

OK, so if I get what you are saying, the collective tribe spirit is a self-aware entity.

No, that is exactly what I'm not saying, especially the bolded word-traps.

What about today? For example, do you feel like the Finnish Archangel has certain vision of the proper direction that individuals should be going into? Does it seem reasonable for example to turn to that spirit in prayer, in order to make yourself more receptive for its higher wisdom, such that your life can be aligned with a greater plan?

What about today? Today I assume it is the inattentive and relatively unaware going in circles, which manifests in colonizing with ill-fitting alien concepts the a Finnish linguistic background and experience so carefully, yet very openly discussed in a previous treatise.

I mean, nothing wrong with going in circles. That is how we empirically study a circle in and out, going around and coming back to starting point both internally and externally. Going around in a circle is also the geometry of ymmärtää, our word and alternative geometry for 'to under-stand'. Our word for 'discussion' is keskustelu, iterative form derived from the word keskus, 'center'. The wisdom of the story of blind men and elephant is suggested and contained in the Finnish geometry and interplay of keskustella - ymmärtää.

When sitting in a circle, discussing some matter brought to the center of attention, we are all on the same level, peers, as talk and perspectives go around the circle. The basic form of a camp fire.

There's also another circular expression with negative connotation, "noidankehä", which usually translates into English as vicious circle. How could we get unstuck from that, if such has been formed? Any suggestions?

[Lou Gold]

When sitting in a circle, discussing some matter brought to the center of attention, we are all on the same level, peers, as talk and perspectives go around the circle. The basic form of a campfire.

There's also another circular expression with negative connotation, "noidankehä", which usually translates into English as vicious circle. How could we get unstuck from that, if such has been formed? Any suggestions?

In the Haudenosaunee Way, the chiefs sat in a circle seeking consensus. If it could not be reached, the matter was sent to the Clan Mother's with the question: "What would be best for the seventh generation to come?"