Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

[AshvinP]

You think he would agree that he is "not a reliable source of truth"? That's a very weird thing to claim... I wonder why he keeps writing books and doing interviews then.

Not at all weird. JP makes it clear very often that he is not in position to teach from "Master-level", on the contrary I love most his soul baring moments of insecurity, fear and doubt, which people can connect with on deeply shared level. His magic is his sincerity as a fellow seeker.

Writing books, giving lectures and participating in dialogues is the age old method of learning by teaching, teaching by learning. "Teacher" is just a role that a deep learner takes, to keep on learning.

He is humble and realistic, sure, and he thinks through problems with his readers/audience/hosts/guests. But it's the height of absurdity to suggest he believes that he is not a reliable source of truth. His definition of truth is pragmatic, like mine, but it is truth nonetheless. But at least you consistently embrace absurdities across the board, whether it's philosophy, math, theology, or anything else, so I will give you that.

[SanteriSatama]

He is humble and realistic, sure, and he thinks through problems with his readers/audience/hosts/guests. But it's the height of absurdity to suggest he believes that he is not a reliable source of truth. His definition of truth is pragmatic, like mine, but it is truth nonetheless.

As far as I've heard, JP subscribes to Pyrrhonic philosophical skepticism - not in those expressis verbis, but in spirit clearly enough articulated. His quarrel is with what is called Academic philosophical skepticism, which inconsistently claims that "truth can't be known" (inconsistently because it leads to Liar's paradox), and falsely associates this claim with Post-Modern philosophy. The false claims goes back to the Randian Objectivist whose subpar hit piece on PoMo is JP's main, and apparently only source of his strawman enemy. JP's limitations in that regard don't devalue his other contributions, and have most to do with Academic sociology and its eternal infights and elbow tactics etc. ugliness, which I have no interest for.

But at least you consistently embrace absurdities across the board, whether it's philosophy, math, theology, or anything else, so I will give you that.

I don't embrace the empirically inconsistent absurdity of that claim.

[AshvinP]

He is humble and realistic, sure, and he thinks through problems with his readers/audience/hosts/guests. But it's the height of absurdity to suggest he believes that he is not a reliable source of truth. His definition of truth is pragmatic, like mine, but it is truth nonetheless.

As far as I've heard, JP subscribes to Pyrrhonic philosophical skepticism - not in those expressis verbis, but in spirit clearly enough articulated. His quarrel is with what is called Academic philosophical skepticism, which inconsistently claims that "truth can't be known" (inconsistently because it leads to Liar's paradox), and falsely associates this claim with Post-Modern philosophy. The false claims goes back to the Randian Objectivist whose subpar hit piece on PoMo is JP's main, and apparently only source of his strawman enemy. JP's limitations in that regard don't devalue his other contributions, and have most to do with Academic sociology and its eternal infights and elbow tactics etc. ugliness, which I have no interest for.

But at least you consistently embrace absurdities across the board, whether it's philosophy, math, theology, or anything else, so I will give you that.

I don't embrace the empirically inconsistent absurdity of that claim.

No his quarrel is pretty much with your version of PoMo philosophy, whatever that is. I have seen him tweet no less than 3x in the last few weeks about how dangerous it is for 'liberal' school administrators to claim that the basic math being taught to children is culturally oppressive (which is a claim that is increasingly being made and acted on). And you have made your position on that quite clear in the "more/less mathematics" thread. I have no problem with you expressing your views and I think it makes for great discussions sometimes, but it's simply not true that those views are aligned with JP's philosophy or his constructive (as opposed to deconstructive and cynical) skepticism.

[Lou Gold]

He is humble and realistic, sure, and he thinks through problems with his readers/audience/hosts/guests. But it's the height of absurdity to suggest he believes that he is not a reliable source of truth. His definition of truth is pragmatic, like mine, but it is truth nonetheless.

As far as I've heard, JP subscribes to Pyrrhonic philosophical skepticism - not in those expressis verbis, but in spirit clearly enough articulated. His quarrel is with what is called Academic philosophical skepticism, which inconsistently claims that "truth can't be known" (inconsistently because it leads to Liar's paradox), and falsely associates this claim with Post-Modern philosophy. The false claims goes back to the Randian Objectivist whose subpar hit piece on PoMo is JP's main, and apparently only source of his strawman enemy. JP's limitations in that regard don't devalue his other contributions, and have most to do with Academic sociology and its eternal infights and elbow tactics etc. ugliness, which I have no interest for.

But at least you consistently embrace absurdities across the board, whether it's philosophy, math, theology, or anything else, so I will give you that.

I don't embrace the empirically inconsistent absurdity of that claim.

No his quarrel is pretty much with your version of PoMo philosophy, whatever that is. I have seen him tweet no less than 3x in the last few weeks about how dangerous it is for 'liberal' school administrators to claim that the basic math being taught to children is culturally oppressive (which is a claim that is increasingly being made and acted on). And you have made your position on that quite clear in the "more/less mathematics" thread. I have no problem with you expressing your views and I think it makes for great discussions sometimes, but it's simply not true that those views are aligned with JP's philosophy or his constructive (as opposed to deconstructive and cynical) skepticism.

Santeri seems more Pomo than PoMo (whatever that is).

[SanteriSatama]

No his quarrel is pretty much with your version of PoMo philosophy, whatever that is. I have seen him tweet no less than 3x in the last few weeks about how dangerous it is for 'liberal' school administrators to claim that the basic math being taught to children is culturally oppressive (which is a claim that is increasingly being made and acted on). And you have made your position on that quite clear in the "more/less mathematics" thread. I have no problem with you expressing your views and I think it makes for great discussions sometimes, but it's simply not true that those views are aligned with JP's philosophy or his constructive (as opposed to deconstructive and cynical) skepticism.

I have not followed that discussion you refer to. My criticism of Axiomatic Set theories is that they are mathematically inconsistent, based on the absurd paradox of 'completed infinity' and too dishonest to admit that and speak honestly especially in the PR propaganda of scientism etc. Relop aims to solve the age old foundational crisis of pure mathematics by offering a new more coherent and communical mathematical language with complementary relation with rational numerical arithemic and it's evolution.

I doubt JP is at least linguistically aware of this new approach, so he's clearly not commenting on it. Or process philosophy and new animism, as I speak of them.

As I said, I have no interest in the cesspool of academic sociology and its internal politics, no card in that game. The game seems to interest mostly the authoritarians of every ilk, who want to use the power hierarchy of education system to indoctrinate young minds to their dogma, what ever that happens to be. Which means that spiritually it can be a very unhealthy environment. For his own sake, it might do good for JP's health to take leave from those quarrels and the poison of twitter.

[SanteriSatama]

Santeri seems more Pomo than PoMo (whatever that is).

I've said many times that we've moved from PoMo zeitgeist to Metamodern zeitgeist long ago. But people keep not listening by yelling their own ears full wax, and confusing zeitgeists with philosophical positions, theories and dogma.

Nowadays, as the pressure of inevitable radical change is more and more immanent, I see we have much need for sincere conservative sentiment in the Great Discussion. What do we want to keep of the old world and improve, what is possible to keep and how, as we are moving to a new world?

All the yelling can't be and should not be prevented, but maybe it is best for the sincere conservation to speak it's sense from the heart directly to the Spirit, in a prayer.

[AshvinP]

No his quarrel is pretty much with your version of PoMo philosophy, whatever that is. I have seen him tweet no less than 3x in the last few weeks about how dangerous it is for 'liberal' school administrators to claim that the basic math being taught to children is culturally oppressive (which is a claim that is increasingly being made and acted on). And you have made your position on that quite clear in the "more/less mathematics" thread. I have no problem with you expressing your views and I think it makes for great discussions sometimes, but it's simply not true that those views are aligned with JP's philosophy or his constructive (as opposed to deconstructive and cynical) skepticism.

I have not followed that discussion you refer to. My criticism of Axiomatic Set theories is that they are mathematically inconsistent, based on the absurd paradox of 'completed infinity' and too dishonest to admit that and speak honestly especially in the PR propaganda of scientism etc. Relop aims to solve the age old foundational crisis of pure mathematics by offering a new more coherent and communical mathematical language with complementary relation with rational numerical arithemic and it's evolution.

I doubt JP is at least linguistically aware of this new approach, so he's clearly not commenting on it. Or process philosophy and new animism, as I speak of them.

As I said, I have no interest in the cesspool of academic sociology and its internal politics, no card in that game. The game seems to interest mostly the authoritarians of every ilk, who want to use the power hierarchy of education system to indoctrinate young minds to their dogma, what ever that happens to be. Which means that spiritually it can be a very unhealthy environment. For his own sake, it might do good for JP's health to take leave from those quarrels and the poison of twitter.

Well I'm not going to dig through all of your comments on the topic, but you frequently call that type of math "colonialist" and imply some oppressive political and socioeconomic qualities, which you also do for the word "individual", "individualism", etc. and much of Judeo-Christian mythological/theological approach, as you did with JP's interpretation of ancient Egyptian myths. It's too consistent of a trend to think I am just imagining all of it, just like the similar trends in American/Canadian grade schools through universities. I am glad JP keeps a few toes in that swamp because he has a massive audience along with the Weinstein brothers, Murray, etc, but I agree it's ultimately best for him to focus on metaphysical issues.

[Lou Gold]

Santeri seems more Pomo than PoMo (whatever that is).

I've said many times that we've moved from PoMo zeitgeist to Metamodern zeitgeist long ago. But people keep not listening by yelling their own ears full wax, and confusing zeitgeists with philosophical positions, theories and dogma.

Nowadays, as the pressure of inevitable radical change is more and more immanent, I see we have much need for sincere conservative sentiment in the Great Discussion. What do we want to keep of the old world and improve, what is possible to keep and how, as we are moving to a new world?

All the yelling can't be and should not be prevented, but maybe it is best for the sincere conservation to speak it's sense from the heart directly to the Spirit, in a prayer.

What do we want to keep of the old world and improve, what is possible to keep and how, as we are moving to a new world?

Events seem to be rolling and roiling and ravelling pretty fast. Might be bigger stuff than choices happening. I'd like to keep a lot of friends.

[SanteriSatama]

Well I'm not going to dig through all of your comments on the topic, but you frequently call that type of math "colonialist" and imply some oppressive political and socioeconomic qualities, which you also do for the word "individual", "individualism", etc. and much of Judeo-Christian mythological/theological approach, as you did with JP's interpretation of ancient Egyptian myths. It's too consistent of a trend to think I am just imagining all of it, just like the similar trends in American/Canadian grade schools through universities. I am glad JP keeps a few toes in that swamp because he has a massive audience along with the Weinstein brothers, Murray, etc, but I agree it's ultimately best for him to focus on metaphysical issues.

Well, the math of Seth theory, to put it in a pun, can't be ultimately separate from how long history of class society, in the technical meaning of quantitative administration by a ruling class of scribes, affects and forms the identities of alters. The separation humanity into the countable form of closed intervals / finite sets has been a colonizing mental process, which the already archetypal myth of Agent Smith exemplifies on a deep level. In ultimate form and logical conclusion this mathematical colonizing process becomes eliminative materialism and insistence of reducing consciousness and experience to discrete numbers and/or set theory. You work with numbers, and see daily what it can do to people when they are treated as mere numbers, when our multidimensional and qualitative debts of mutual dependence become mechanically quantified inhumane rules. It's not the Christian way, in any positive sense of the word. Sacrificing the meek of the Earth for the blind greed of Mammon is not the right way to give sacrifice, it is sacrilege. The true beauty of mathematics should not be used in such manner.

Therefore, I chose my words very carefully, when I said Relop is a new Gospel, a form of Living Logos, to deliver us from this hamartia, this error of mathematical writing gone wrong and acting much more as poison than medicine, badly out of good proportion. In Seth theory, the mathematical twin of materialistic scientism and physicalism, formalist school of mathematics separates mathematical writing from intuition and connection with spirit, and makes it a mere arbitrary language game of the post-modern condition.

Deconstruction is a good word to replace Heidegger's concept of destruktio, we can't responsibly destroy without rebuilding. We can't "cancel" mathematics, but we can give arithmetics and computation a new foundation which can reconnect with open interval what starting mathematics from closed interval separated.

As I've said, God of Number theory is primary to questions about monotheism, polytheism, dualism and non-dualism. So the spiritual healing of the M@L level math deity starts from number theory, by replacing the closed interval with open interval in the foundation of mathematics, by replacing quantification with codependent process.

The new foundation of mathematics has been intuitively received, and by the signs, the spirit is pleased with the form of writing. My role in this process is that of a humble translator.

[Lou Gold]

Well I'm not going to dig through all of your comments on the topic, but you frequently call that type of math "colonialist" and imply some oppressive political and socioeconomic qualities, which you also do for the word "individual", "individualism", etc. and much of Judeo-Christian mythological/theological approach, as you did with JP's interpretation of ancient Egyptian myths. It's too consistent of a trend to think I am just imagining all of it, just like the similar trends in American/Canadian grade schools through universities. I am glad JP keeps a few toes in that swamp because he has a massive audience along with the Weinstein brothers, Murray, etc, but I agree it's ultimately best for him to focus on metaphysical issues.

Well, the math of Seth theory, to put it in a pun, can't be ultimately separate from how long history of class society, in the technical meaning of quantitative administration by a ruling class of scribes, affects and forms the identities of alters. The separation humanity into the countable form of closed intervals / finite sets has been a colonizing mental process, which the already archetypal myth of Agent Smith exemplifies on a deep level. In ultimate form and logical conclusion this mathematical colonizing process becomes eliminative materialism and insistence of reducing consciousness and experience to discrete numbers and/or set theory. You work with numbers, and see daily what it can do to people when they are treated as mere numbers, when our multidimensional and qualitative debts of mutual dependence become mechanically quantified inhumane rules. It's not the Christian way, in any positive sense of the word. Sacrificing the meek of the Earth for the blind greed of Mammon is not the right way to give sacrifice, it is sacrilege. The true beauty of mathematics should not be used in such manner.

Therefore, I chose my words very carefully, when I said Relop is a new Gospel, a form of Living Logos, to deliver us from this hamartia, this error of mathematical writing gone wrong and acting much more as poison than medicine, badly out of good proportion. In Seth theory, the mathematical twin of materialistic scientism and physicalism, formalist school of mathematics separates mathematical writing from intuition and connection with spirit, and makes it a mere arbitrary language game of the post-modern condition.

Deconstruction is a good word to replace Heidegger's concept of destruktio, we can't responsibly destroy without rebuilding. We can't "cancel" mathematics, but we can give arithmetics and computation a new foundation which can reconnect with open interval what starting mathematics from closed interval separated.

As I've said, God of Number theory is primary to questions about monotheism, polytheism, dualism and non-dualism. So the spiritual healing of the M@L level math deity starts from number theory, by replacing the closed interval with open interval in the foundation of mathematics, by replacing quantification with codependent process.

The new foundation of mathematics has been intuitively received, and by the signs, the spirit is pleased with the form of writing. My role in this process is that of a humble translator.

Crazy! I comprehend next to nada of what you said but somehow grok the translation. I want to say, "WELL DONE" but don't ask me "WHY?"