Eugene I wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:50 am
Liberation does not mean that we need to stop, deny, escape them or anything like that. It only means that any identification with them is dropped,
but all these activities on all Spheres still perfectly continue along their developmental path. It's just that our path now becomes that of non-self-identification, because "behind the scene" of all these activities and forms there is a non-stopping and unconditioned presence of the Beingness and Awareness of Consciousness being continuously aware of itself and of all its forms that constantly unfold within it, but never self-identifies with them.
Every time I say to myself that I'm done posting but then you drop something like the above that leaves me bewildered
Let's first settle down that Occidental esoterism doesn't have a problem with misidentification and ego-mania. The fact that there's One Consciousness is perfectly clear. In another thread we reached the conclusion that it's a linguistic difference. What I can easily call "I"-experience without any ill feelings, you prefer to call individual conscious space, in order to avoid language traps like "I" and "self". We also mentioned that the language is not the real source of the problem. Even if we force newspeak to the masses this won't at the least promote morality. Neither diminished sense of agency helps. As an example I said that some of the worst crimes happen in a state of consciousness where the perpetrator has absolutely no sense of agency. Such people report in retrospect that they were practically observing the unfoldment of the act. The lack of sense of agency is not something that should easily be equated with higher development. Actually there're more examples than not, where lack of agency only wrecks havoc because the person is simply a blind outlet for passions of unknown origins. Anyone who has attempted any kind of work on self-improvement knows that the first condition is
constant vigilance. The simple fact is that moral action is only possible when one has explored the depths of their own being and they are
conscious of the driving forces behind the outermost appearances. Popular Eastern practices today place overemphasis on this dropping of the identification - like this in itself solves the problems. We have agreed previously that the Buddhist becomes a moral person not because he has de-identified but because of the earnest and tireless work on self perfection, such as the prescribed in the eightfold path. All of this we have commented previously.
As said, modern Initiation does not at all misidentify with anything. It simply proceeds where the Eastern method leaves off. This is not a criticism - this is how evolution works - every new development steps on the achievements of the previous. So what the Great Buddha taught remains working in full force. Buddha gave the methods for self-perfection. This means to be able to differentiate between the lower and the higher nature in man and employ all conscious effort to make the higher master over the lower - that's the essence of the eightfold path. The emphasis on de-identification becomes so talked about only later (for reasons that can be commented another time). Western esoterism steps on the foundations of the East and the Middle-East. The One Consciousness is a fact. The work on self-perfection is at the heart of things. Yet mere de-identification doesn't really change anything. Even if we wholeheartedly embrace the living experience of the One Consciousness, this doesn't mean that we find the
causes of phenomena within our perspective, let alone the ability to influence them. This is an elementary fact. This is where spiritual evolution focuses next. The Initiate says "OK, so there's One Consciousness. I must constantly keep in check my lower nature through consciously exercising the methods of self-perfection. Through de-identification I reach the experience of the One Consciousness. Yet there's still a chasm between it and my limited perspective. The creativity of the One Consciousness I experience only in the very limited forms of my spiritual activity. Although I understand that all other phenomena proceed from the same conscious space, they are utterly beyond my comprehension. This will now become the focus of my investigation. The fact that there's One Consciousness and everything exists with it, is an eternal Truth. But this truth in itself is sterile. I live within it, I understand it, yet the thing that the truth signifies is infinitely remote from me. It becomes my mission to penetrate into the actual
reality of this Mystery - not only as a general and eternal truth but as livingly experienced reality. It's not enough bask in the light of the idea that my consciousness is part of the Great One Consciousness. I
know that is my true essence but I'll forever remain disconnected from it unless I set out to discover the processes through which the
Great One Consciousness becomes my limited perspective. Not only as a theoretical scheme but as livingly experienced reality. I can only understand in the real sense my current perspective when I experience in detail how the creative forces of the One Consciousness shape my existence."
As we spoke, if at this point you say "That's true but after death we really can be liberated and we can experience the creative Cosmic perspective responsible for the Sun, planets, all life, etc. as we experience our thoughts today, and we are free to move into other domains of creativity" then the conversation ends. It's my word against yours. But then you say that
Liberation does not mean that we need to stop, deny, escape them or anything like that. It only means that any identification with them is dropped, but all these activities on all Spheres still perfectly continue along their developmental path. This really puzzles me. It forces me to investigate once more where exactly the difference lies.
If I'm to take the Eastern stance (which I had. Practically what's below corresponds to my historical experience), I would only be comfortable to do so through the firm belief that I'll be free after death. The fact that I de-identify of my self doesn't free me from the flaws of my character, much less from my entanglement with other beings and the Cosmic landscape. I could be in peace with such a position only if I have unshakable faith that after I'm gone I'll be free. But if I'm aware that the Earth is not simply a temporary sandbox but the mineral shadow of a Cosmic developmental process, then my next logical question would be - then what's my role in that developmental process? It'll be too painful for me focus on the experience of One Consciousness while I don't do anything for bridging the chasm.
If we take the nondual state as the highest goal, a very specific picture of social life on Earth emerges. Civilization of enlightened humans who are free of egoistic desires, all of which become meaningless when the Oneness of Consciousness becomes experiential reality. Then everyone is free to do whatever they want as long as the basic principles of Oneness are abided. Yet this, like many noble visions, has an important prerequisite - they all start with "Only if everyone did this or that ... Earth would be Heaven." The fact of reality is that everyone doesn't do this or that but the most varied things that go contrary to them. Western esoterism, instead of going for utopian visions in the form of "Only if everyone ...", dives right into the depths and investigates what are the spiritual reasons that people think, feel and do the things they do. This is the dive into Deep M@L. Everything converges there. We understand at the same time the true reasons for sin, the details of the Cosmic development process and how we can contribute in the most constructive way to it, and the actual bridging of the chasm - through the higher forms of cognition we experience the creative perspectives of the One Consciousness.
Sorry Eugene, I promised that I'm not retriggering anything but your last post provoked me
In the way that you described it, if you admit that we are living through coils within coils of the One Consciousness, and we are only gradually evolving out of them, then why you give such great preference to the nondual state, when it clearly doesn't help in itself with the unfoldment of development? Yes, it is an important prerequisite but in itself it only leads to the
living acknowledgment of the Oneness and not to its realization. Western esoterism on the other hand, completely logically, continues the process - that's the whole meaning of evolutionary development. Oneness is the foundation stone but unless the actual process of spiritual osmosis is initiated, the long process of bridging of the chasm can never even begin.
This is very elementary but I need to state it again, just to make sure it's explicit. The livingly experienced acknowledgment of the One Consciousness, such as in the mystical state, is one thing and without doubt of prime importance. But it's an obvious fact that there's a precipice between our limited human experience and the supposed liberated and creative state of the Consciousness. The fact that we de-identify with the transient phenomena doesn't in the least make us independent of them - this is the simple fact of experience. So not being confused with the impermanent is an important condition but we need something more if we are to evolve towards true liberation. And here's where Western esoterism takes the relay, so to speak, and continues further. Oneness is not only acknowledged but its
realization is initiated. To realize the oneness means to investigate reality and elucidate the subconscious individual and collective processes that blindly drive humanity and cause all kinds of mischief. Then to organize these processes through serious work, such as in the essence of the eightfold path. And of course then comes the role of the impulse of Love, which is the only inner reality which allows for the limited perspective to integrate the creative forces of the One Consciousness - not as a general and nebulous, heartfelt idea but as actual cognitive reality. We not only recognize that the forces of the larger than us One Consciousness cause phenomena to enter and leave our perspective but we consciously and freely, out of Love, unite with the Cosmic spiritual forces which are the actual causes of the phenomena.