Bernardo's latest essay

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
SanteriSatama
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by SanteriSatama »

Eugene I wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:08 pm Agree. And IMO the dimension of joy-vs-suffering is not the only dimension of life. I personally find creativity and exploration of the limitless (not "infinite" but limitless :) ) fractal of conscious forms, states, ideas and experiences and discovering/experiencing the beauty those forms (mathematical included) worth the suffering.
Delusion, huh? :)

Like the song, I suggest we read the semireligious prose I wrote as the love-poem that we men, in our deepest self-comprehension and self-love of our Holy Imperfection can share and talk as-if-philosophy.

How differently and uniquely I will write the same poem to Her in Her, is for Her to read. ;)

User avatar
DandelionSoul
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by DandelionSoul »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:23 am
although he says that it must be "in a sense" something other than nothing, that "in a sense" is an important qualifier: it's his admission that it also is nothing. Indeed, he goes so far as to say that M@L is nothing but its experiences.
I find it helpful to think in terms of his usual metaphor: the lake, or the ocean. All forms are merely ripples on the lake, arranged in coherent patterns (shaped by archetypes). Then it is easier to grasp, because a lake is not nothing. I've also heard BK refer to the old 'fish don't know that they're in water' idea.
Right. But it's a metaphor precisely because the "medium of mind" is simply not an actual medium -- even the language of "medium" is metaphorical here. It's not a substantive substrate. Kastrup is pretty clear about that:
Since the subject of all experiences is the medium of mind itself, it too only becomes actualized in the form of experience: the one universal subject exists only insofar as the experiences it has.
So the medium of mind can only be said to exist to the extent that it is actually experiencing. Let's revisit the lake analogy. There is nothing to the ripples but the water, but, likewise, there is nothing to the water but the behavior of the water. Now let's switch analogies, because I might be able to offer a helpful one, but keep in mind preemptively that all analogies fall short:

If I were to ask Dumbledore about the Harry Potter books, he'd have no idea what I was on about. We'd go down to the Hogwarts library together paging through the tomes looking for the books and we'd never find them. They don't exist, so far as he's concerned. He could comb over his entire world, end to end, every square inch, including his version of "our" world, and he would never find the Harry Potter novels. They are the existence of his world, but they do not exist for, or from the perspective of, his world. The Ground is a little like this. But we can go another step and say that the Ground -- the books -- exist only insofar as the story in them exists. There would be no books without the text that fills them. Hence, the Ground becomes Ground only in relationship to what is actualized: without what exists, the Ground is nothing but nothing. The Ground constitutes the existents, and the existents constitute the Ground.
User avatar
DandelionSoul
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by DandelionSoul »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:00 pm Let's put in terms of activity we are all familiar with - Thinking - which also happens to be aspect of the Ground. There is formless pole of Thinking - the activity which observes constantly changing thought-form but can never be observed as a thought-form. There is also form pole of Thinking - thought-form which is observed and constantly changing. One pole cannot exist without the other and they constitute each other working against each other (not-two), but the polar relationship is real and exists. Now that I think of it, maybe I do agree with Rovelli more than BK, because the Ground is a polar relationship.
Yes, exactly. So in hunting for an independent Ground with a unipolar relationship to what-is, what Kastrup might call an absolute reduction base, we'd find nothing at all. As a side note, you use "Thinking" with a capital "T" a lot and I've seen in some of your other (more contentious) discussions that you seem pretty particular about that word over-against "experience" as a term for mentation broadly. Can you tell me a little more about that? I know it comes from Steiner, whom I haven't read yet (though I've Googled him and his work sounds fascinating!), so that's my own shortcoming, and if you want to bracket that discussion until I've read him, that's fine, too.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 6369
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by AshvinP »

DandelionSoul wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:02 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:00 pm Let's put in terms of activity we are all familiar with - Thinking - which also happens to be aspect of the Ground. There is formless pole of Thinking - the activity which observes constantly changing thought-form but can never be observed as a thought-form. There is also form pole of Thinking - thought-form which is observed and constantly changing. One pole cannot exist without the other and they constitute each other working against each other (not-two), but the polar relationship is real and exists. Now that I think of it, maybe I do agree with Rovelli more than BK, because the Ground is a polar relationship.
Yes, exactly. So in hunting for an independent Ground with a unipolar relationship to what-is, what Kastrup might call an absolute reduction base, we'd find nothing at all. As a side note, you use "Thinking" with a capital "T" a lot and I've seen in some of your other (more contentious) discussions that you seem pretty particular about that word over-against "experience" as a term for mentation broadly. Can you tell me a little more about that? I know it comes from Steiner, whom I haven't read yet (though I've Googled him and his work sounds fascinating!), so that's my own shortcoming, and if you want to bracket that discussion until I've read him, that's fine, too.
Sure! Since I wrote about this in a recent essay, Thinking, Memory, and Time (Part III), I am going to paste a relevant excerpt:
Ashvin wrote:Before proceeding further, we should remain clear - Heidegger does not exclude the "imagination", "inspiration", or "intuition" from Thinking. Spiritual contemplative personalities often partition abstract intellect from all these other modes of contemplation and consider only the former "thinking". That is a fundamental mistake and one that Heidegger, even with his mature exploration of Eastern mysticism, did not make. He recognized that all of these contemplative activities belong to and only belong to the domain of Thinking. We belong to that place where we must find our essential role. My heart belongs to my circulatory system and my lungs belong to my respiratory system, while both are essential to and therefore inseparable from my 'physical' existence.

My heart cannot claim for itself my in-breathing and out-breathing and my lungs cannot claim for themselves the circulation of my blood. So it is that my willing, feeling, and thinking activities belong to distinct and asymmetrical domains of my spiritual existence. The same applies for the Willing, Feeling, and Thinking of humanity writ large, because my personal activities are microcosms of the macrocosm. The soul-activities of Willing and Feeling fulfill their essential roles in the differentiated perspectives of human beings. They are what imbue us with unique personalities as our lives unfold in the integral flow of Time. Without these living beings constantly impelling our conscious experience into new thought-states, we would never experience any flow of Time.
...
Human spirits, for example, present to us as a book - we read their gestures, expressions, eye movements, speech, etc. and are thereby drawn closer into their inner experience. If we were to ignore that reality of shared experience, then we would perceive human spirits as lifeless corpses moving around mechanically. In fact, there is a real danger of that occurring in the modern world with modern technology. We may soon be unable to tell any difference between interacting with a human spirit or an AI algorithm pretending to be such a spirit. Yet that same technology, when treated as nothing more than a symbol of an underlying spiritual reality, also reminds us that 'invisible' spiritual forces form all of our social interactions in a highly specified manner.

In what way besides Thinking could we approach such an invisible yet highly specified Reality? Thinking fulfills its essential role, then, through the integration of varied human souls - "I have not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them." It takes what presents to us as differentiated appearances of willing and feeling and weaves back together the ideal constellations which make sense of those appearances as a living whole. We often refer to this process when speaking of the "spirit" of a text, especially in common law traditions. The highly differentiated rules of court decisions and statutes can only be effective when they are born of the principle (spirit) underlying them. Old rules must continuously be reborn in that spirit to remain relevant and useful.

Such realities can be spoken of so casually in conversation that we look entirely past their essential meaning, so let us dwell on it some more. Our thinking, through its rebirth, takes the most varied notes and tones of the human soul provided by willing-feeling and synthesizes them into a harmony which sounds exceptionally pleasant to the eternal Spirit. We cannot understand these distinct essential roles of W-F-T in complete isolation from one other, because all experience always consists of all three qualities in Tri-Unity. And it is only that living Trinity which provides food for our thought; which provokes the most thought within us; which eternally calls upon us to Think.
That is Steiner's view of W-F-T in a very crude nutshell. Many problems in philosophy come from the simple refusal to recognize these distinct essential roles of W-F-T in the unfolding of our experience. If you really want to explore the specific role of Thinking in this world-evolving process, then I highly recommend reading Steiner's The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity (or Freedom). It's even possible to read individual chapters of the book without being completely lost.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
SanteriSatama
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by SanteriSatama »

DandelionSoul wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:53 pm So the medium of mind can only be said to exist to the extent that it is actually experiencing.
That's not necessarily totally accurate. There can be medium that can transmit information etc. communication between Wills without any interfering experiencing by the medium, as well as lack of medium which allows Wills to stay incommunicado. Cf. pleroma and kenoma of the breathing Spirit. Or ether vs. vacuum theories.
User avatar
DandelionSoul
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by DandelionSoul »

SanteriSatama wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:11 pm
DandelionSoul wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:53 pm So the medium of mind can only be said to exist to the extent that it is actually experiencing.
That's not necessarily totally accurate. There can be medium that can transmit information etc. communication between Wills without any interfering experiencing by the medium, as well as lack of medium which allows Wills to stay incommunicado. Cf. pleroma and kenoma of the breathing Spirit. Or ether vs. vacuum theories.
Sure, there can absolutely be a medium with a separate substance from what travels through it. But BK (in Why Materialism Is Baloney, chapter 6) posits the "medium" as pure awareness, as void, which only actually exists once it has experiences and then only consists of those experiences. His medium of mind is not a substance in any meaningful way. It's an emptiness. I'm not sure if you're saying a medium can be such as he described it and also have existence independent of the experiences themselves -- if you are, could you elaborate a little on that?
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

DandelionSoul wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:02 pmYes, exactly. So in hunting for an independent Ground with a unipolar relationship to what-is, what Kastrup might call an absolute reduction base, we'd find nothing at all.
I've come to prefer no-thingness, to avoid the connotation of absolute nonexistence, which by definition would mean absent ideation, and as such is a non sequitur, since 'nonexistence' is an idea. Under idealism there are no 'things' ... period. There is only ideation, as the ontological imperative. Consciousness/MInd is not a thing. Ideas are not things. A substance is an idea, thus not something. Likewise Saptiotemporal subjects><objects are ideas, and thus not things. And if anyone revises Dr. Johnson's "kicking a stone" refutation you'll be banned from this forum !!! :mrgreen:
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
User avatar
DandelionSoul
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by DandelionSoul »

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "thing" such that it excludes all those... erm... not-things you mentioned. Would you be willing to elaborate?
User avatar
Cleric
Posts: 1931
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by Cleric »

Eugene I wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:08 pm Thinking without knowing the Experiential Unity is incomplete.
Knowledge of Experiential Unity without the knowledge of ideal meanings and relations through Thinking is an "idiotic" experience and is also incomplete (fully agree with you here, Cleric).
Only integration of both can bring the completeness to the knowledge of Reality (and thereby fully close the Kantian divide)
I tried to give very simple analogy with the book page. It seems you insist that Thinking doesn't expand the experiential unity but fragments it and obscures it. This is a justified objection if we're dealing with purely abstract thinking but all attempts have been made to show that Thinking (capital T) is something much more encompassing. Let me try once more with pictures:

Image

It must be stressed that these pictures don't represent some third person theories of reality. It's impossible to draw a 'first-person picture'. As soon as we draw a line on the paper, it's already external to us. So it is up to us to make the inner effort and look at the pictures as pointers to inner experiential realities.

Above is a picture to which we more or less agree. We have the experiential contents of consciousness (perceptions) which confront our Thinking spiritual activity. The latter weaves ideas through the perceptions, organizes them, refines them and unites them in higher order wholenesses. For example, the page of written text is experiential unity but once worked upon with Thinking it unites the perceptions into larger whole. We can understand the text, we can relate to the biography of the author which is/was a real spiritual being walking the Earth. We can trace the origin of the paper and ink. Paper leads us to the trees, to Nautre, the Earth, water, air, Sun. We see how every perception is connected with invisible threads to all other potential perceptions and we use Thinking to trace and reveal these connections through the corresponding ideal content. This you also agree with. Yet you see it more or less in the following way:

Image

In other words, the ideal content which Thinking weaves into the World of perceptions/experiences, you see as something in addition, something which is not essential for the true nature of the experiential world. In a way, our ideas just inflate our personal bubble on the side of ideas, which correspondingly increases the amount of thought-forms. Clearly, you see this as something which brings about disbalance, something which obscures the pure (direct) experiential reality. This needs to be balanced with pure experience. If we return to our book analogy this would sound like we're going astray when we trace and reveal the above mentioned relations through Thinking. We're only adding layers of thoughts/concepts on top of the pure experience. You agree that this is useful, that there's 'nothing wrong with it' but still you see it as deterring from the purity of direct experience. In other words, you consider that there's something pristine and irreplaceable in the experience of the incomprehensible text, which is lost once we work upon it with Thinking. Again - I agree that there are many instances where this is exactly the case, as with many modern completely abstract and disconnected from reality scientific and philosophical theories. Yet what we're talking about aims not to replace or reduce the direct experiences but only to make them richer, denser, more encompassing, more interrelated, full of meaning. The only reason you can't see it in this way is because you refuse to explore spiritual activity that goes beyond the personal bubble - that is, all thoughts have completely local significance. They are useful personal bubble idea-model of reality but have no significance for the pure experiential reality. In other words they are useful but foreign elements to true reality, only adding practical layers of knowledge.

If we at least allow ourselves to think without prejudice about cognitive activity that may stand higher than the personal bubble intellect, we arrive at a picture like this:

Image

We can speak whole essays about this picture but I'll just mention few things here. In certain sense our ordinary consciousness sphere is concentric with the higher order consciousness spheres. In our ordinary state all spheres are flattened, so to speak (the yellow arrows showing how the higher spheres are flattened/projected as the surface of the inner sphere). Through the higher forms of cognition we begin to differentiate this flattened experiential surface in its depth (or verticality). This goes together with the experience of the higher order ideas, which are no longer the static, mineral-like concepts of the intellect but the actual creative forces proceeding from ideating activity of higher beings.

This must be properly understood. By gaining higher knowledge we don't simply stuff ourselves with abstract theories, inflating the ego. Instead we live together with the ideating activity of beings. In Imagination we still read these activities as they impress into our soul but with the higher forms of cognition we increasingly merge cognitevely with the Cosmic activity.

All of these things have been addressed in the Deep MAL essay. Here I just want to once again point attention to the fact that through development of the higher forms of consciousness we don't simply inflate the ideal content but we enter the domain of Cosmic Thoughts which are the Macrocosmic forces supporting and enlivening reality. I've used this example several times - the flattened experience of the contents of consciousness is like looking at a stereogram (Magic Eye) but only seeing the flat image. Just as seeing Magic Eye pictures requires certain skill (acquired through slight effort), so we need the specific methods of self-development in order to see the depth of consciousness. Perceptions, willing, feeling, thinking are normally flattened for people of today. We can see how far this goes through the fact that in the West the whole complexity of spiritual experience is called flatly 'mind'. Learning to have clear differentiating experience of the above four elements is already a step forward in development. Through higher development this depth increases. Not in spatial sense (although spatial depth is a great analogy) but in the sense that the elements of consciousness become meaningful, elucidated by Cosmic Thoughts. For example, the outermost sphere in the picture above, which is the highest form of cognition - Intuition - is related with the physical Cosmos and thus with the physical body. Yet we must not imagine that at that stage we find bodies in space as we do in our ordinary sensory consciousness. As a matter of fact, that highest sphere is weaved of something that we can call color, sound, smell, taste, touch, etc. If we are able to experience these sense elements independently of any objects, as pure realities, we can form some idea of what is meant with physical world in the esoteric sense. It's not a world of atoms, forces, etc. - these we can only conceptualize from the highly specific experience of an intellect confronting manifold sensory panorama. It's the 'substance' out of which the sensory panorama itself is made. Furthermore, this substance, which is inner environment for man, is only the reflection of ideating activity of higher beings, just like verbal thoughts are reflection of our own ideating activity. In the early stages of evolution we may say that the whole Cosmos was weaved out of inner experiences of smell, taste, warmth, color, etc. (of course not exactly in the form we know them from sensory consciousness. The very fact that in Intuition they are experienced not as something pointing to outer world but as Thought-content of higher beings, hints that there's difference). In the process of involution the patterns and dynamics of these substances become more and more complicated, folded in complex ways, reflecting the complicating ideating relations of beings.

Image

Our inner phenomenological picture is experience of precisely these folds, which are the true reality of physicality. When we approach this complex folded experience with the intellectual concepts we simplify the picture and as a result live with the ideas, which weave a kind of a phantom reality supposed to lie behind the world of manifold color, smell, sound, etc. Today we experience the essence of the same primordial Cosmic colors and smells but contracted to the microcosmic sphere of our ego unity. The Macrocosmic color is still there, filling all of space, but we need to go beyond ourselves in order to perceive it. In our ego sphere we perceive from the Cosmic nature of color only as much as we can capture through our intellectual concepts (and these currently form the phantom picture of reality).

We can't decode the folds of the Cosmic sense substance, contracted in the bounds of our body, only with the intellect - the latter operates on a very high level of abstraction. We need precisely the ability to read the direct experiences, yet not by simply merging unintelligibly with the folds of perceptions (which mysticism suggests). The folds of consciousness become intelligible only when elucidated by the Cosmic Thoughts which produce the folds in the first place. And in order to find these Cosmic Thoughts we need to go outside our head. In the head the Thoughts become formatted by the brain to microcosmic thoughts (the intellectual phantom reality). To grasp Cosmic Thoughts we need to perceive through the folds of the brain (Magic Eye), which we innerly experience as the manifold structure of (parts of) consciousness. Just as we materialistically imagine that we have neural activity constrained by the physical structure of the brain, so we have ordinary thoughts constrained by Cosmic Thoughts (which give the general blueprint for the brain). If we are to ascend to Cosmic Thoughts we need to Think not only with our brain but with every part of the body. And not only with the body but with the whole spiritual environment. This of course will sound outrageous for the materialist. Interestingly it sounds outrageous also for the idealist who insists on the absoluteness of the 'dissociative boundary'. Naturally, it should be precisely the nondualists who should embrace with ease the possibility to go beyond the head and live with Cosmic Thoughts. Unfortunately this is exactly what is resisted the most. It's much preferred to focus on the buzzing confusion and its heartfelt unity, rather than to seek the causative forces, the World Thoughts that shape the folds of reality. This results in reality being conceived as Great Mysteriousness where it's pointless to seek deeper understanding of anything. Experience of Cosmic Thoughts require coming to terms with the Higher Self. Most nondualists dismiss any notion of self, let alone Higher Self. With this they dismiss any possibility to live cognitively within Macrocosmic ideational activity. For this reason they are forced to see any such reports as delusional ordinary thoughts (the ideal inflation in the second picture). Yet they don't do that because they have verified the facts for themselves (and the path of this verification is disclosed in the greatest details) but because they must deny Cosmic Thoughts, if they are to support their own view - that direct perception (even if buzzing incomprehension) gives us a truer 'knowledge' of reality than any ideas that connect and elucidate the direct experience. This view clothes in complete mystery the picture of the 'true experience'. In this view human cognition has nothing to do with the true causes. For example, for the mystic, speaking of reasons that man has a head, torso and limbs, has significance only for the local human experience. It might be practical and useful but ultimately anything that we cognize about this has nothing to do with the true grounds of reality. For the mystic, imbuing experience with ideas may be practical (and even necessary for survival) but ultimately, from the point of view of the 'true' grounds of existence, it can't reveal anything essential of the deepest secrets, it only obscures them.

It is fairly easy to see through the reasons of the above. It's simply that man wants the acknowledge the unity of the Cosmos but doesn't want to admit that there could be forms of intelligence higher than his own, which weave the Cosmos out of Macrocosmic Thoughts. In other cases the higher forms of intelligence are acknowledged but it's assumed that they are of completely different character, lying in orthogonal cognitive spaces as it were. It's so easily overlooked that the only reason we can Think about the World is because we are uniting with the World Thoughts of beings higher than us that support and enliven the World and our own bodily sheaths.
SanteriSatama
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Bernardo's latest essay

Post by SanteriSatama »

DandelionSoul wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:39 am Sure, there can absolutely be a medium with a separate substance from what travels through it. But BK (in Why Materialism Is Baloney, chapter 6) posits the "medium" as pure awareness, as void, which only actually exists once it has experiences and then only consists of those experiences. His medium of mind is not a substance in any meaningful way. It's an emptiness. I'm not sure if you're saying a medium can be such as he described it and also have existence independent of the experiences themselves -- if you are, could you elaborate a little on that?
First we need to make a distinction between sensual (feeling) and metacognitive (thinking) awareness. By latest anedcotal evidence from a NDE we exist in a sensual Goddess of Love and deep emotional curiosity to explore love in all forms, as her internal drama of costumes and materializations for sensual touch etc etc. According to the NDE narrative, She is not "really consciouss", apparently referring to metacognitive self-narration. In that sense we could call here Pure Will and Feel, the Source.

Experience of Void seems purely metacognitive tripping, only "emotion" possibly but not necessarily present or linked some existential horror. Somehow our metacognitive capacity and creative intelligence is also able to visit beyond Her.

The Void-kenoma is not any absolute, it's just a metacognitive dialectic, which allows Will and Feel to explore and satisfy curiosity internally in relative isolation from other Wills.

Hence, the metacognitive dialectic and it's antidialectic synthesis entails also the possibility to become the medium-pleroma that fills the void and allows Wills to feel each other directly and communicate p2p also on metacognitive level.

In Gnostic-Hermetic cosmology She could correspond with Sofia, and the ethical choice to become pleroma, the impartially meaning carrying medium that fills the Void of incommunicado, with Hermes Trismegistos.

All in wonderfully complex and dynamic holofractal of perspectival multinatures and multicosmologies...
Post Reply