No Objective Space or Time = No Free Will or Events

[David_Sundaram]

I must (?) say, "No Free Will"-ers strike me as being as ignoring of facts and self-'encapsulated' in a sub-'world' of very limited/limiting mental constructions as "Flat Earth"-ers.

To any and all "No Free Will"-ers out 'there: If the dance-play of Intelligence (i.e. "Free-wheeling" Life!) in the above sentence doesn't convince you of the absurdity of such belief, check out what's daimonstrated in the video at this link and try to 'explain' that as a "No Free Will" phenomenon:

https://laughingsquid.com/cello-mashup- ... Taq2I-psYs

[Cleric K]

Sorry everyone, I know this may be completely inappropriate but David's video somehow summoned in me this:



I know this is not the place, so may the moderators simply delete this post

[Ben Iscatus]

I felt really sorry for the poor washing machine. There must be something it is like to be an abused washing machine after all...

[Soul_of_Shu]

Sorry everyone, I know this may be completely inappropriate but David's video somehow summoned in me this

:

As the intro to the 'General Discussions' section mentions, conversations may take unexpected (agitating?) turns ... or churns ... or spins. Especially, it seems, once the original topic has run its course, and the metaphysically pertinent and salient points have been made ~ which, where the topic of 'free will' is concerned, having been discussed so often and exhaustively in the old MS forum, it's still surprising that there is anything novel left to say. Anyway, I don't feel the forum need become utterly without some occasional comic relief, as long as that is not the primary pursuit, to the point of being a constant distraction from its intended focus. Now back to our regular 'programming' ... ha,ha, just joking.

[Cleric K]

The hidden message of the post was "You can't infer the existence of free will by measuring complexity of behavior". Simple machines can exhibit complex behavior, as it is well known from chaos theory, double pendulums, cellular automata and ... washing machines.

Point was - I can only find freedom as far as I find it within myself.

[AshvinP]

The hidden message of the post was "You can't infer the existence of free will by measuring complexity of behavior". Simple machines can exhibit complex behavior, as it is well known from chaos theory, double pendulums, cellular automata and ... washing machines.

Point was - I can only find freedom as far as I find it within myself.

Good point. Hoffman often remarks that AI will soon be producing the best musical compositions we have ever heard, yet that does not mean they have acquired metaphysical free will.

[Soul_of_Shu]

The hidden message of the post was "You can't infer the existence of free will by measuring complexity of behavior". Simple machines can exhibit complex behavior, as it is well known from chaos theory, double pendulums, cellular automata and ... washing machines.

Well certainly not from such entropic 'complex' events as depicted in the video. Nor even from a programmed self-organizing system that AI can replicate. Maybe the ultimate test of truly free creative will is in the creation of events that can only first be imaginatively conceived and/or programmed by a conscious agent, ultimately traced back to the willful Conscious Agent/Conceiver/Programmer, of which we are like Its metacognitive alter-mode apprentices pondering WTF happens when a brick is tossed into a spinning washing machine

[David_Sundaram]

The hidden message of the post was "You can't infer the existence of free will by measuring complexity of behavior". Simple machines can exhibit complex behavior, as it is well known from chaos theory, double pendulums, cellular automata and ... washing machines.

Point was - I can only find freedom as far as I find it within myself.

Hi-Ho Brainiac.

My 'point' wasn't based on the 'complexity' of the behavior/actions that were 'pointed' to, it was based on the 'spirit' (the nature of the 'activity') which 'gave rise' to said actions. To appreciate my/said 'point' one would have to set one's 'self' aside ('lose' one's 'self' in Jesus's terms) by 'i'dentifying with the actors who were the 'creators' of said actions and thereby experience what was going on (from) 'within' them.

Oh, well - not all arrows hit their target. Am not lamenting, BTW. If they did, the 'game' of Life would be boring!

Your washing machine video right back atchoo, Bro.

[Cleric K]

Sure David,
It hasn't been my point to quibble.

I take it in Hegelian sense - to every thesis we can find an antithesis and their synthesis leads to higher unity. Which itself would have to find its antithesis and so on. That's how we agitated our soul bodies and moved up the thread further, rather than stopping at your post

In this way everyone learns something. If nothing else ... at least what happens if you toss a brick into a washing machine

[Soul_of_Shu]

Freedom to create entails freedom to destroy, as one can't be apart from the other.