What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

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DandelionSoul
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

Post by DandelionSoul »

SanteriSatama wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:57 pm
DandelionSoul wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:09 pm My take might be a touch different: I think the sense of distinction is necessary in order for love to happen at all. Compassion -- feeling-with -- only happens when we have a sense of another soul distinct from our own. Love is not the dissolution of the feeling of distinction, but its sublation: the concurrent recognition of the unity that grounds the distinction and the distinction that dis/closes the unity. They are not two.
Distinction, difference, unique, all valuable. And your use of word 'sublation' tickles pleasurably.

Disassociation by Markov blanket, another story. The math, as far as I can understand, has no structure for empathy and compassion. In that sense the analytical leg can be read as a diagnosis of alienation, setting Bernardo's idealism in the larger context of continental therapeutic philosophy.
I think Kastrup's dissociation works fine as a metaphor in some contexts, but sometimes I think he himself forgets that it's a metaphor.
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PHIbonacci
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

Post by PHIbonacci »

SanteriSatama wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:59 pm
We each give our best babble
trying to express the ineffable.
And thus we become each unique
and isn't that très magnifique!

Touché
SanteriSatama wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:59 pm From what wonder and curiosity does your phibonacci handle come from? The ratio of consecutive fibonacci areas/segments/numbers is most wonderful constant of compassion!
Damn. Good. Question.

The ratio of consecutive fibonacci areas/segments/numbers is most wonderful constant of compassion!

You got it.

It's about the algorithm that generates the 1.61803... sequence. I won't get into details here but it goes like this:

To Give <===> To Receive.

Ad infinitum.

Or, to put it into more "occult" terms (which I hate too, for, in my humble opinion these days occultism is soo depraved of a Path with a Heart —freemasonry, I'm looking at you—, as Castaneda [ The Teachings of Don Juan ] used to put it):

As above, so below.

For me —and only for me, I don't intend this to be an universal truth for everybody—, that's a "universal" truth via a really strong intuition (and 30 grs. of fresh psilocybes too, of course :roll: ).

That's also why I question some advaita teachers —it tends to be soo analytical and mental—, though Ramana Maharshi used —if only a little— talk about compassion.

I'm not a buddist neither, but I find buddism most enticing for the central role of compassion in its teachings.

Hence my curiosity regarding the role of compassion in Bernardo's ToE, for I think that's vital.

[ Sorry about the slightly off-topic and thanks for making a good question SanteriSatama. ]
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DandelionSoul
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

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PHIbonacci wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:28 am For me —and only for me, I don't intend this to be an universal truth for everybody—, that's a "universal" truth via a really strong intuition (and 30 grs. of fresh psilocybes too, of course :roll: ).
Thirty grams?? Yeah, I bet you saw some universal truth. Damn.
That's also why I question some advaita teachers —it tends to be soo analytical and mental—, though Ramana Maharshi used —if only a little— talk about compassion.

I'm not a buddist neither, but I find buddism most enticing for the central role of compassion in its teachings.

Hence my curiosity regarding the role of compassion in Bernardo's ToE, for I think that's vital.

[ Sorry about the slightly off-topic and thanks for making a good question SanteriSatama. ]
You might like Freya Mathews' For Love of Matter. She identifies her position as "panpsychism," and does so very explicitly against idealism, but in the nuts and bolts of her metaphysical ideas I don't find much to differentiate her from Kastrup.* She spends a good deal of time developing her concept of love through the lens of eros, though, and you might find value, or at least interest, there.

*I'm perpetually irked by the fact that philosophy has no standardized vocabulary and that philosophers get so caught up in the labels on their perspectives. I read Goff's books, too, and don't see much in the substance of his cosmopsychism to differentiate it from idealism, either
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PHIbonacci
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

Post by PHIbonacci »

DandelionSoul wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:00 am Thirty grams?? Yeah, I bet you saw some universal truth. Damn.
30 gr. fresh! = 3 grs. dry only. :lol: They were 2 really intense introspective trips anyway, sure...
DandelionSoul wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:00 am You might like Freya Mathews' For Love of Matter.
Thanks!

Incidentally:
Off Topic
Civilizations never just happen. They are brought into existence quite consciously, with unbelievable compassion and determination, from another world. Then the job of people experienced in ecstasy is to prepare the soil for them; carefully sow and plant them; care for them; watch them grow.”
Peter Kingsley, A Story Waiting to Pierce You: Mongolia, Tibet and the Destiny of the Western World
SanteriSatama
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

Post by SanteriSatama »

PHIbonacci wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:28 am
To Give <===> To Receive.
!!!

Excellent insight. The Meister Eckhardt quote that this forum likes, speaks in this ear also of phi:
“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”

From math perspective, I'm not at all a fan of defining phi in the metric of real numbers, as I don't accept real numbers as a valid construction. Expressing phi as continuous fraction of one is much better than that.

In my inquiry into foundational mathematics, I've found afaik a new way to express phi as internal LRLR paths of fibonacci words of a formal language I call 'Relop' (from 'relational operators' < and >). The fibonacci words, which can be interpreted as the ratio of consecutive fibonacci numbers, are parts of larger Stern-Brocot type structures generated by the simple algorithm of concatenating mediants. Sorry if the language is too dense, I don't know the level of your math literacy, and I'll be happy to open up the concepts if needed and you are interested.

There are two main types of fibonacci words in Relop, words with character count of Lucas numbers and words with character count of Fibonacci numbers. Wich makes me very happy. :)
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DandelionSoul
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

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PHIbonacci wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:08 am 30 gr. fresh! = 3 grs. dry only. :lol: They were 2 really intense introspective trips anyway, sure...
Oh, yeah, three grams can still be an intense journey. The most I've ever sat with is fourteen grams (dry) and... trying to imagine thirty sorta broke my brain a little bit. :P

To segue from that to metaphysics and compassion, my own sense from my own experiences (some spiritual and psychedelic, including the one I mentioned above, and some much more mundane, and some very ugly) is that reality is fundamentally playful, that (so to speak) God is playing. Compassion is about enabling playfulness. Suffering breeds a seriousness toward life, because it turns the attention toward survival and endurance. Playing is what we do for its own sake, for the delight of it, and when suffering turns us inward and closes us off from delight, play becomes impossible, and we are cut off from the essence of life, and we become alienated, so suffering adds to suffering. So when we enter into others' suffering with them and give what aid we can to relieve it, even if all we can give is compassionate presence, we are making an opening for the playful spirit to bubble back up. To be healed from our suffering is to turn our attention from consequential things to worthwhile things: creativity and learning and falling in love, the experiences of embodiment, spirituality, the sunset and the taste of strawberries, joyful work, sunsets, the taste of strawberries -- in a word, play.

Edit to add: I realized that when I was editing the draft of this post, I accidentally left the sunset and the taste of strawberries in there twice. They're worth it, though, so I'm leaving both instances.
bkastrup
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

Post by bkastrup »

In proposing that our individual minds are mere segments, or aspects, of an all-encompassing mind, analytic idealism offers solid ontological ground for compassion. The idea that, when you and I die, I'll experience the memories of your experiences, and you of mine, is almost a definition of compassion, and certainly justifies the latter while we are alive.
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PHIbonacci
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

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analytic idealism offers solid ontological ground for compassion.
Image

Thanks Bernardo!
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

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bkastrup wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:13 pm In proposing that our individual minds are mere segments, or aspects, of an all-encompassing mind, analytic idealism offers solid ontological ground for compassion. The idea that, when you and I die, I'll experience the memories of your experiences, and you of mine, is almost a definition of compassion, and certainly justifies the latter while we are alive.
Great to hear from you, Bernardo!

I am curious as to how you feel about the sharing of experience before death, for example through the realm of ideal content and shared conceptual meaning? Especially when considering that consciousness may be moving towards ever-more integration of "personal" perspectives at the macrocosmic scale. It seems to me the "meaning crisis" can also be usefully (and truthfully) addressed when we acknowledge shared experience in this lifetime and therefore the capacity for true communication and empathy on a very deep level that most people simply cannot imagine right now. I understand completely if you do not have the time to respond, but I hope you do! Thanks.
Last edited by AshvinP on Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Must obviously be,
That which remains to the end
And was there from eternity."

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SanteriSatama
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Re: What's the role (if any) and/or How does COMPASSION fit within Bernardo's idealism?

Post by SanteriSatama »

bkastrup wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:13 pm In proposing that our individual minds are mere segments, or aspects, of an all-encompassing mind, analytic idealism offers solid ontological ground for compassion. The idea that, when you and I die, I'll experience the memories of your experiences, and you of mine, is almost a definition of compassion, and certainly justifies the latter while we are alive.
Nice to see you here, Bernardo! What about trinity of mind, feel and will? Or in other words mind, heart and guts? Compassion and empathy are not only mental imagery of the intellectual faculty, but empirically more close to feels, emotions, moods, as well as intentionality and will.

I understand that from the perspective of substance metaphysics monism is the most coherent response. But that does not apply to process philosophical ontology, where meaning arises most naturally as relational networks and their nodes/vertices.

Logically, bivalent attempt to reduce the empirical relations of mind, feel and will to a single choice of them as The Substance leads to formal undecidability, which I'm sure is a familiar term for someone with background in computation science.

I understand that the perspective of substance metaphysics goes back to polemical stance against substance metaphysics of materialism, but is your own view between merits of substance metaphysics and process philosophy locked down and final?
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