Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

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AshvinP
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by AshvinP »

Squidgers wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:39 pm Is your principle at all similar to Leibniz's Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR)?

There would, by it's own criteria, need to be a sufficient reason why this principle exists in nature.

But in this way it is circular.
Kant asked the following:
‘How is it possible in general to cognize a priori the necessary conformity to law of things as objects of experience, or: How is it possible in general to cognize a priori the necessary conformity to law of experience itself with regard to all of its objects?’

In other words, how can we know independent of experience the manner in which our experience conforms to precise, general laws? Concerning objective validity, Kant says further that,
‘Objective validity and necessary universal validity (for everyone) are therefore interchangeable concepts, and although we do not know the object in itself, nonetheless if we regard a judgment as universally valid and hence necessary, objective validity is understood to be included.’

In other words, if we knew something as logically necessary, we would know that it is also going to be objectively valid for everyone. If we knew the laws of nature by some way of necessity, we would be able to know that the laws of nature are valid for everyone. Anything that we know by way of necessity would have this property.

This entire reasoning of Kant stems from a simple error - assuming there is a subject separate from the objects of its experience. The error is going from polarity of formlessness-form (subject-object), which makes distinctions, to duality, which manufactures divisions. Once the latter is assumed, then Kant asks how the subject can recreate the world of objects, assumed to be external to itself, from within itself. He says that cannot be done for various valid reasons (assuming false S-O division), and therefore concludes human perception-cognition must impose a priori judgments on the world-in-itself to structure that world before we become aware of the imposition. Of course there are many more details and formulations of these things, but the simple fact is that Kant created a problem which never needed to exist in the first place and then proceeded to solve his own problem by dividing the world-in-itself from the world as it always appears to our perception-cognition.

Kant was correct to reject or modify PSR to the extent it tried to explain essence from outside of human experience, but he was incorrect to assume human experience was forever veiled with illusory judgments of phenomenon. He ended up relying on the same non-existent perspective he was critiquing to explain the shared world of appearances. And all of these people basically fell into these traps because they demoted the realm of human ideas to mere illusory and personal concepts. We can see easily how such a demotion naturally follows from Cartesian mind-matter dualism. We are mistaken if we think this dualism only led the materialists astray, because it most certainly led the idealists astray as well. They both arbitrarily limit the power of human Thinking and human ideas to penetrate into the essence of an objectively ideal Reality.

Once we realize S-O are the same in essence, and that the realm of ideating activity is transpersonal, these arbitrary limits of materialism and idealism alike fall away. That spiritual activity of Thinking is how the world of phenomenon is revealed, from within itself, to be continuous with the noumenal world and to naturally flow forth from it. Most of all, we should never assume we cannot "objectively" study these things if we are also accounting for our own participatory role in bridging phenomenal and noumenal realms. There is no reason why empirical study must leave out ideational activity - if such studies ever want to speak to essential relations, they must include that ideational activity. That is exactly what the anthropic principle is pointing towards - the participatory role of our ideating activity in (re)-making sense of the appearances. What Barfield called, "Saving the Appearances".
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
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An exact mystery."
Robert Arvay
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by Robert Arvay »

To say that ANYTHING in nature can "just exist" is to close off the metaphysical question.
Yep. It's ridiculous so now you should see why the idea of God or Designer is even more ridiculous since it is outside of nature and closes off all questions.
How is Design "outside" of nature, when before nature existed, there were no natural causes?
Plus, metaphysics is itself an attempt to put nature into a greater context than itself, hence, the "meta."

I think we need to avoid the semantics, and focus on the metaphysics.

Squidgers does a good job of arguing contrary to my position, and while I disagree with him, at least in part, I respect his disciplined approach. I do not have a capsule response to him, so I will have to take some time to compose a response.

Peace.
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SanteriSatama
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by SanteriSatama »

Robert Arvay wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:03 pm How is Design "outside" of nature, when before nature existed, there were no natural causes?
Plus, metaphysics is itself an attempt to put nature into a greater context than itself, hence, the "meta."

I think we need to avoid the semantics, and focus on the metaphysics.
Why should 'beginning' and 'end' be supposed, and thus "before" and "after"? Time can be born and grown from the middle.

Continuous design from the middle can be also arranged and delegated, without external designer "before" and "after".
Jim Cross
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by Jim Cross »

How is Design "outside" of nature, when before nature existed, there were no natural causes?
So God is a part of nature? Maybe God is just anthropic principles themselves? The Design is the Designer?

But there was no "before nature". Nature is bound to time. It is meaningless to argue for anything before or after it because it is only with it that time exists.

Actually just realized I am agreeing with Santeri.
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

As it happens I've just been watching an interview with Chris Langan in which his take on the anthropic principle is discussed, and so I checked out his wiki, and found the following which may be of some interest here, since it also seems to make the case that 'designer' and design are not-two ...

Reality, Langan argues, requires as a condition of its existence not merely logical consistency, but "teleological consistency". To arise from the unbound telesis (UBT), reality needs a function to distinguish what it is from what it is not—to "select itself" for existence. This requirement, the "Telic Principle", generalizes the well-known anthropic principle: whereas the anthropic principle asserts that reality must have a form that is compatible with our existence, the Telic Principle asserts that reality must have a form that "selects" its own existence.

Because reality is self-contained, it serves as its own selection function. That is, the function, that which it selects, and the act of selection itself are identical; "existence is everywhere the choice to exist" and "reality triples as choice, chooser and chosen". Langan explores the logic of this arrangement: "[a] large part of the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU) is about what happens when functions, including choice, generative and causal functions, are looped so that input coincides with output coincides with functional syntax".

The requirement that reality serve as its own selection function gives it a reflexive form whose goal is to self-actualize. This "MU form" is the starting configuration of SCSPL grammar. With "existence and its amplification" as its sole imperative, reality self-configures by maximizing a parameter Langan calls "generalized utility". The CTMU is therefore a teleological theory in which the purpose of reality is to optimally self-actualize.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
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where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:18 pm As it happens I've just been watching an interview with Chris Langan in which his take on the anthropic principle is discussed, and so I checked out his wiki, and found the following which may be of some interest here, since it also seems to make the case that 'designer' and design are not-two ...

Reality, Langan argues, requires as a condition of its existence not merely logical consistency, but "teleological consistency". To arise from the unbound telesis (UBT), reality needs a function to distinguish what it is from what it is not—to "select itself" for existence. This requirement, the "Telic Principle", generalizes the well-known anthropic principle: whereas the anthropic principle asserts that reality must have a form that is compatible with our existence, the Telic Principle asserts that reality must have a form that "selects" its own existence.

Because reality is self-contained, it serves as its own selection function. That is, the function, that which it selects, and the act of selection itself are identical; "existence is everywhere the choice to exist" and "reality triples as choice, chooser and chosen". Langan explores the logic of this arrangement: "[a] large part of the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU) is about what happens when functions, including choice, generative and causal functions, are looped so that input coincides with output coincides with functional syntax".

The requirement that reality serve as its own selection function gives it a reflexive form whose goal is to self-actualize. This "MU form" is the starting configuration of SCSPL grammar. With "existence and its amplification" as its sole imperative, reality self-configures by maximizing a parameter Langan calls "generalized utility". The CTMU is therefore a teleological theory in which the purpose of reality is to optimally self-actualize.
It's funny, I recently tweeted about Langan on TOE. Perhaps that is where you came across him as well? I browsed some of the papers on his website, but have not really listened to his interviews, so I could be wrong. But I know for certain that this sort of abstraction is the general trend in philosophy and spirituality, which is worrying to say the least. You can almost feel the mechanization of Truth setting in when reading these things - the reduction of living ideas into cold formulaic chains of logic. Of course this has been going on for a long time now, but it seems even the traditional strongholds of nondual spiritual traditions are falling prey as well.


"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Jim Cross
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by Jim Cross »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:18 pm As it happens I've just been watching an interview with Chris Langan in which his take on the anthropic principle is discussed, and so I checked out his wiki, and found the following which may be of some interest here, since it also seems to make the case that 'designer' and design are not-two ...

Reality, Langan argues, requires as a condition of its existence not merely logical consistency, but "teleological consistency". To arise from the unbound telesis (UBT), reality needs a function to distinguish what it is from what it is not—to "select itself" for existence. This requirement, the "Telic Principle", generalizes the well-known anthropic principle: whereas the anthropic principle asserts that reality must have a form that is compatible with our existence, the Telic Principle asserts that reality must have a form that "selects" its own existence.

Because reality is self-contained, it serves as its own selection function. That is, the function, that which it selects, and the act of selection itself are identical; "existence is everywhere the choice to exist" and "reality triples as choice, chooser and chosen". Langan explores the logic of this arrangement: "[a] large part of the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU) is about what happens when functions, including choice, generative and causal functions, are looped so that input coincides with output coincides with functional syntax".

The requirement that reality serve as its own selection function gives it a reflexive form whose goal is to self-actualize. This "MU form" is the starting configuration of SCSPL grammar. With "existence and its amplification" as its sole imperative, reality self-configures by maximizing a parameter Langan calls "generalized utility". The CTMU is therefore a teleological theory in which the purpose of reality is to optimally self-actualize.
Does this mean we are agreeing about something? :)

Although what you are quoting seems much like what I am thinking, Chris Langan sounds like nut-case from what I glean from Wikipedia.
Last edited by Jim Cross on Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:31 pmIt's funny, I recently tweeted about Langan on TOE. Perhaps that is where you came across him as well? I browsed some of the papers on his website, but have not really listened to his interviews, so I could be wrong. But I know for certain that this sort of abstraction is the general trend in philosophy and spirituality, which is worrying to say the least. You can almost feel the mechanization of Truth setting in when reading these things - the reduction of living ideas into cold formulaic chains of logic. Of course this has been going on for a long time now, but it seems even the traditional strongholds of nondual spiritual traditions are falling prey as well.
I sympathize with your sentiment, and yet also intuit that mathematical ideation and its language are somehow fundamentally isomorphic to the manifestation of the phenomenal cosmos, and so is bound to factor into our participation in that process as ideating/languaging alter-mode, feedback-loop, aspects of the whole as a one><many fusion.

Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:56 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:31 pmIt's funny, I recently tweeted about Langan on TOE. Perhaps that is where you came across him as well? I browsed some of the papers on his website, but have not really listened to his interviews, so I could be wrong. But I know for certain that this sort of abstraction is the general trend in philosophy and spirituality, which is worrying to say the least. You can almost feel the mechanization of Truth setting in when reading these things - the reduction of living ideas into cold formulaic chains of logic. Of course this has been going on for a long time now, but it seems even the traditional strongholds of nondual spiritual traditions are falling prey as well.
I sympathize with your sentiment, and yet also intuit that mathematical ideation and its language are somehow fundamentally isomorphic to the manifestation of the phenomenal cosmos, and so is bound to factor into our participation in that process as ideating/languaging alter-mode, feedback-loop, aspects of the whole as a one><many fusion.
My overall point is that the "mathematical ideation and language" is, in essence, the activity of spiritual beings. We could even just call them "math-beings" and have a better resolution than the CMTU sort of approach. These are really dangerous trends because they appropriate true essences and abstract away their underlying meaning. Can we get any sense for the underlying qualia of experience when speaking of "reality self-configures by maximizing a parameter Langan calls 'generalized utility'." and similar phrases? Maybe if that language is used very sparsely to make comparisons and relate to people who have more familiarity with such things, to fill out a much broader framework which is spoken in concrete language of experience, but that does not seem to be the approach. Rather the approach is to make that language the sole framework in which to discuss and understand these essences. I take that to be even more dangerous than basic materialism and dualism, because with the latter we can at least easily point to the claims which are completely out of tune with our experience and the empirical data. With CMTU (I am just using it to stand in for all similar approaches), the critique is basically what I just wrote above and most people will say that is not a valid critique of its truth value, which is in a sense accurate, but in another sense completely missing the point. And it's not a point that is easy to make - in some ways my essays are one long continuing attempt to make this point (among others).
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
SanteriSatama
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Re: Does the Anthropic Principle Explain Anything?

Post by SanteriSatama »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:56 pm I sympathize with your sentiment, and yet also intuit that mathematical ideation and its language are somehow fundamentally isomorphic to the manifestation of the phenomenal cosmos, and so is bound to factor into our participation in that process as ideating/languaging alter-mode, feedback-loop, aspects of the whole as a one><many fusion.
I sympathize very much with the purpose of making languages of mathematics as simple, comprehensible and available as possible, and feel deep frustration with unnecessary complex and fancy language - even when the intuitive ideas behind the language might be sound.

The noble purpose of comprehensible language is not a small challenge, there are simple things that can be expressed and explained in simple common sense terms, as well as genuine complexity and difficulty. Demarcating the simple and comprehensible from the genuinely difficult is not an easy task to begin with, but as the saying goes, ars longa, vita brevis.

Kudos to guys like Stephen Wolfram and Norman Wildberger, who not only do top notch creative foundational mathematics, but dedicate major parts of their lives to communicate as comprehensible way as they can. We have become so dependent of mathematics and computation, that we can't afford to stay naive about those fields and progress made in them and as a society to leave the language as incomprehensible jargon of small elites.
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