The vertigo of eternity

[Hedge90]

In some of his talks, Bernardo mentions the vertigo of eternity, which he says he experienced on heavy doses of psychedelics, and how it is a terrifying experience, and how he felt very alone. Now, I haven't read all his books yet, but did he ever elaborate on that more? Because in my own experience, the road down to ego death is, indeed, the most terrifying thing I ever felt, reality melting away around me and me falling into total unknown without anything to latch on to. But after you pass the threshold, so to speak, after you let your ego dissolve and step out of the confinement of your self, for me it was the very opposite of feeling alone. In fact, what I realised that I never was and cannot be "alone", because everything is ONE, and aloneness implies that you are separated from something.
I think the feeling of "alone" is a very Earthly feeling people experience and due to evolutionary instincts: being separated from others was very dangerous to us, so we evolved a natural negative reaction to it. But you don't (can't) bring these feelings with you outside the confines of your physical brain. For me, it was a feeling of overwhelming wholeness and calm.
I'm interested in whether Bernardo has written about this more and whether he managed to resolve his fear regarding this. I'm also interested in your own takes on the topic.

[tjssailor]

I appreciate your description of Transcendence. I've gone through several spiritual crises in my life presenting as an extreme fear of death including high anxiety and panic attacks. Each time though I've come closer to a true understanding of existence. It has become obvious that consciousness cannot be differentiated and that all consciousness is therefore One. However knowing and experiencing are different things. Reading about what you and other alters have experienced either through various esoteric techniques or NDEs. brings reassurance and is a great service.

[AshvinP]

In some of his talks, Bernardo mentions the vertigo of eternity, which he says he experienced on heavy doses of psychedelics, and how it is a terrifying experience, and how he felt very alone. Now, I haven't read all his books yet, but did he ever elaborate on that more? Because in my own experience, the road down to ego death is, indeed, the most terrifying thing I ever felt, reality melting away around me and me falling into total unknown without anything to latch on to. But after you pass the threshold, so to speak, after you let your ego dissolve and step out of the confinement of your self, for me it was the very opposite of feeling alone. In fact, what I realised that I never was and cannot be "alone", because everything is ONE, and aloneness implies that you are separated from something.
I think the feeling of "alone" is a very Earthly feeling people experience and due to evolutionary instincts: being separated from others was very dangerous to us, so we evolved a natural negative reaction to it. But you don't (can't) bring these feelings with you outside the confines of your physical brain. For me, it was a feeling of overwhelming wholeness and calm.
I'm interested in whether Bernardo has written about this more and whether he managed to resolve his fear regarding this. I'm also interested in your own takes on the topic.

Hello,

I myself have not experienced this threshold. Part of the reason is just sheer anxiety, but more and more it is becoming a desire to be firmly established in knowledge before approaching Wisdom. I write about this briefly in recent essay on musical aesthetics and the Soul. (full essay a few threads below this one).

These transformations spoken of above will approach our psyche with incredible ferocity - they may illuminate aspects of our 'shadow-self' that we are not yet prepared to behold. Both Steiner and Jung saw clearly that the "remnants of archaic consciousness" can lead to "occult imprisonment" if they are not fully understood when rising from the subconscious abyss into the light of awareness. All subconscious contents which come within the purview of our normal consciousness must be tamed by knowledge so that they do not take possession of us. That is why Steiner places so much importance on patient learning, disciplined training, and focused practices for anyone seeking knowledge of the higher worlds.
...
Can you feel those beats hypnotizing your soul? That is the drumbeat of mechanization at work, marching us towards an existence more and more devoid of life and soul. The stakes here are high and we must remember that, when we approach the threshold of our soul-life, there is a real possibility of engulfing the soul deeper into darkness rather than mounting it upwards to the radiant energy of Imagination. At this threshold, what feels most immediately pleasurable is also what tempts us towards a mechanistic fate. We must resist this temptation, because it is only through the straightest of gates - the narrowest of ways - that our feeling soul builds the connective tissue between our will and thinking, so that we can effectuate the impulse to steer clear of sensuous materialism, over-spiritualized mysticism, or any toxic combination of the two. Balance between these delicate processes is now of critical importance. Specifically, we must invite the feeling soul into a balanced remembrance of things past and attraction of things future; a balance between the gravity of Earth and the levity of Heaven.

[Hedge90]

Hey, thanks for responding. That's very interesting, I've always been fascinated by what music is and I believe it may have a very fundamental quality to it - a metaphor that we naturally understand. People are cross-culturally able to identify whether a piece of music is happy or sad, calm or angry, etc. And someone's musical taste tends to be very much in correlation with their personality. Both of these things are backed by many studies.
As for the other thing. I'm sure you can get much better prepared for your first mystical experience than I was (if you read my other thread you'll see what I mean - it took me some time to "recover"). I basically just overdosed and flung out of reality. I had the choice of trying to resist or just letting go, and I knew the only thing that could bring me closer to truth was letting go, so I did.
But I believe there's so much knowledge can do for you, and empirical experience of the transcendent will require a degree of courage and a jump into the unknown regardless of how much you know, because it's impossible to rationally prove what will happen. It"s something all of us have to do alone, because no one can escort you beyond the veil. I think that's what religions mean by the concept of faith. There comes a point at which no rational thinking can help you advance anymore. You just have to trust that existence is good and that it will hold you.

In some of his talks, Bernardo mentions the vertigo of eternity, which he says he experienced on heavy doses of psychedelics, and how it is a terrifying experience, and how he felt very alone. Now, I haven't read all his books yet, but did he ever elaborate on that more? Because in my own experience, the road down to ego death is, indeed, the most terrifying thing I ever felt, reality melting away around me and me falling into total unknown without anything to latch on to. But after you pass the threshold, so to speak, after you let your ego dissolve and step out of the confinement of your self, for me it was the very opposite of feeling alone. In fact, what I realised that I never was and cannot be "alone", because everything is ONE, and aloneness implies that you are separated from something.
I think the feeling of "alone" is a very Earthly feeling people experience and due to evolutionary instincts: being separated from others was very dangerous to us, so we evolved a natural negative reaction to it. But you don't (can't) bring these feelings with you outside the confines of your physical brain. For me, it was a feeling of overwhelming wholeness and calm.
I'm interested in whether Bernardo has written about this more and whether he managed to resolve his fear regarding this. I'm also interested in your own takes on the topic.

Hello,

I myself have not experienced this threshold. Part of the reason is just sheer anxiety, but more and more it is becoming a desire to be firmly established in knowledge before approaching Wisdom. I write about this briefly in recent essay on musical aesthetics and the Soul. (full essay a few threads below this one).

These transformations spoken of above will approach our psyche with incredible ferocity - they may illuminate aspects of our 'shadow-self' that we are not yet prepared to behold. Both Steiner and Jung saw clearly that the "remnants of archaic consciousness" can lead to "occult imprisonment" if they are not fully understood when rising from the subconscious abyss into the light of awareness. All subconscious contents which come within the purview of our normal consciousness must be tamed by knowledge so that they do not take possession of us. That is why Steiner places so much importance on patient learning, disciplined training, and focused practices for anyone seeking knowledge of the higher worlds.
...
Can you feel those beats hypnotizing your soul? That is the drumbeat of mechanization at work, marching us towards an existence more and more devoid of life and soul. The stakes here are high and we must remember that, when we approach the threshold of our soul-life, there is a real possibility of engulfing the soul deeper into darkness rather than mounting it upwards to the radiant energy of Imagination. At this threshold, what feels most immediately pleasurable is also what tempts us towards a mechanistic fate. We must resist this temptation, because it is only through the straightest of gates - the narrowest of ways - that our feeling soul builds the connective tissue between our will and thinking, so that we can effectuate the impulse to steer clear of sensuous materialism, over-spiritualized mysticism, or any toxic combination of the two. Balance between these delicate processes is now of critical importance. Specifically, we must invite the feeling soul into a balanced remembrance of things past and attraction of things future; a balance between the gravity of Earth and the levity of Heaven.

[SanteriSatama]

In some of his talks, Bernardo mentions the vertigo of eternity, which he says he experienced on heavy doses of psychedelics, and how it is a terrifying experience, and how he felt very alone. Now, I haven't read all his books yet, but did he ever elaborate on that more? Because in my own experience, the road down to ego death is, indeed, the most terrifying thing I ever felt, reality melting away around me and me falling into total unknown without anything to latch on to. But after you pass the threshold, so to speak, after you let your ego dissolve and step out of the confinement of your self, for me it was the very opposite of feeling alone. In fact, what I realised that I never was and cannot be "alone", because everything is ONE, and aloneness implies that you are separated from something.
I think the feeling of "alone" is a very Earthly feeling people experience and due to evolutionary instincts: being separated from others was very dangerous to us, so we evolved a natural negative reaction to it. But you don't (can't) bring these feelings with you outside the confines of your physical brain. For me, it was a feeling of overwhelming wholeness and calm.
I'm interested in whether Bernardo has written about this more and whether he managed to resolve his fear regarding this. I'm also interested in your own takes on the topic.

One way to interpret the experience of kenoma, is that it is precondition of letting go of the attachment sphere of social conditioning. In indigenous traditions the social sphere is of primary importance, as letting go of religious etc. belief systems and fear of death through experience of kenoma is just a step towards letting go of empathy barriers - the heart opening - and becoming a source of love which transforms the kenoma into pleroma of unconditional love and compassion.

In other words, letting go of conditionings of local communal ties is often a precondition for becoming better able to contribute to communal-spiritual evolution from the peer-to-peer level of heart conscience.

Often - but can't say necessarily - heart opening requires falling in love and broken heart, so that new and stronger heart can grow. Fear of love, in that sense, can be much more terrible fear to conquer than the fear of death, as unconditional love means also a choice of accepting suffering.

[AshvinP]

Hey, thanks for responding. That's very interesting, I've always been fascinated by what music is and I believe it may have a very fundamental quality to it - a metaphor that we naturally understand. People are cross-culturally able to identify whether a piece of music is happy or sad, calm or angry, etc. And someone's musical taste tends to be very much in correlation with their personality. Both of these things are backed by many studies.
As for the other thing. I'm sure you can get much better prepared for your first mystical experience than I was (if you read my other thread you'll see what I mean - it took me some time to "recover"). I basically just overdosed and flung out of reality. I had the choice of trying to resist or just letting go, and I knew the only thing that could bring me closer to truth was letting go, so I did.
But I believe there's so much knowledge can do for you, and empirical experience of the transcendent will require a degree of courage and a jump into the unknown regardless of how much you know, because it's impossible to rationally prove what will happen. It"s something all of us have to do alone, because no one can escort you beyond the veil. I think that's what religions mean by the concept of faith. There comes a point at which no rational thinking can help you advance anymore. You just have to trust that existence is good and that it will hold you.

Indeed, music, as all aesthetics, is fundamentally transpersonal. It's interesting that the notion of personality types, most significantly detailed by Jung (especially extroversion and introversion), was more recently confirmed by statistical analysis. In other words, they naturally emerged as patterns from the individual data. That also speaks to their transpersonal essence.

I forgot you had posted about this before, and if I remember correctly, Cleric responded with basically what I am responding here but with much more practical detail. So consider what I am writing a brief synopsis and addendum. We use the word "Thinking" because it is really the only word which can differentiate this faculty from Willing (instincts, desires, etc.) and Feeling (emotions), while also encompassing a diverse range of faculties - intellect, reason, imagination, inspiration, intuition. Aesthetics is most effective at stimulating our imaginative knowing first, also referred to as "picture-consciousness", although I prefer "image-consciousness". It is not direct experience of the noumenal realm of the spiritual beyond the threshold, but it certainly takes us beyond mere intellect and reason into the realm where all spiritual mythology lives. It is not strictly rational, as you say. Yet it is still a mode of attaining objective transpersonal knowledge. Every soul-mood has its proper place and time and function - belief/faith was very important in the dawning of Pisces, but not so much in the dawning of Aquarius. There is a real danger in just "letting go", which Cleric also detailed in his previous response. To develop spiritual freedom, we must come to know that which was previously held only in faith. That is one of the core meanings to the conclusion of my latest essay:

The Valkyries are the 'archetypal moods' of the World-Soul - they remain virgins, undefiled by the physical world, and transport those who voluntarily and bravely confront the death of their bodily senses into the ceaseless musical movements of eternal life-processes. All ancient myths speak to these same realities of Soul and Spirit, and all ancient mysteries spoke of the One "who is and who was and who is to come". It was no coincidence that there were twelve tribes of Israel and its prophesied Messiah, the ever-traveling Sun, chose twelve disciples to surround Him. Neither is it a coincidence that this Messiah stated He is the eternal "I AM" seven times to those who had ears to hear what the Spirit spoke, nor that He sent seven letters to seven churches by way of the seven spirits. He appeared among seven golden lampstands to John the Revelator, His voice booming like a trumpet and the roaring of many waters. This musical symphony of the Soul has the greatest significance for our Spiritual story, as it orients our imagination towards the fulfillment of our Spiritual freedom in this everlasting relation - "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends..."

[Hedge90]

I obviously have a lot to learn about mysticism. I only recently became interested in it, because before my experience I was certain stuff like that were balloney. It's both fascinating and terrifying to me. Fascinating, because it opened up vistas I couldn't even imagine before. It's like I've been living in a cell with closed windows, and I didn't even know that there was something outside the cell. But also terrifying, because then, the possibilities are endless and things I used to think of as just stuff to scare people may very well be real at some level of reality. And while you have those who had tread these paths before you and shared their insights, fundamentally, everyone has to take these journeys by themselves. And that's really, really scary.

Hey, thanks for responding. That's very interesting, I've always been fascinated by what music is and I believe it may have a very fundamental quality to it - a metaphor that we naturally understand. People are cross-culturally able to identify whether a piece of music is happy or sad, calm or angry, etc. And someone's musical taste tends to be very much in correlation with their personality. Both of these things are backed by many studies.
As for the other thing. I'm sure you can get much better prepared for your first mystical experience than I was (if you read my other thread you'll see what I mean - it took me some time to "recover"). I basically just overdosed and flung out of reality. I had the choice of trying to resist or just letting go, and I knew the only thing that could bring me closer to truth was letting go, so I did.
But I believe there's so much knowledge can do for you, and empirical experience of the transcendent will require a degree of courage and a jump into the unknown regardless of how much you know, because it's impossible to rationally prove what will happen. It"s something all of us have to do alone, because no one can escort you beyond the veil. I think that's what religions mean by the concept of faith. There comes a point at which no rational thinking can help you advance anymore. You just have to trust that existence is good and that it will hold you.

Indeed, music, as all aesthetics, is fundamentally transpersonal. It's interesting that the notion of personality types, most significantly detailed by Jung (especially extroversion and introversion), was more recently confirmed by statistical analysis. In other words, they naturally emerged as patterns from the individual data. That also speaks to their transpersonal essence.

I forgot you had posted about this before, and if I remember correctly, Cleric responded with basically what I am responding here but with much more practical detail. So consider what I am writing a brief synopsis and addendum. We use the word "Thinking" because it is really the only word which can differentiate this faculty from Willing (instincts, desires, etc.) and Feeling (emotions), while also encompassing a diverse range of faculties - intellect, reason, imagination, inspiration, intuition. Aesthetics is most effective at stimulating our imaginative knowing first, also referred to as "picture-consciousness", although I prefer "image-consciousness". It is not direct experience of the noumenal realm of the spiritual beyond the threshold, but it certainly takes us beyond mere intellect and reason into the realm where all spiritual mythology lives. It is not strictly rational, as you say. Yet it is still a mode of attaining objective transpersonal knowledge. Every soul-mood has its proper place and time and function - belief/faith was very important in the dawning of Pisces, but not so much in the dawning of Aquarius. There is a real danger in just "letting go", which Cleric also detailed in his previous response. To develop spiritual freedom, we must come to know that which was previously held only in faith. That is one of the core meanings to the conclusion of my latest essay:

The Valkyries are the 'archetypal moods' of the World-Soul - they remain virgins, undefiled by the physical world, and transport those who voluntarily and bravely confront the death of their bodily senses into the ceaseless musical movements of eternal life-processes. All ancient myths speak to these same realities of Soul and Spirit, and all ancient mysteries spoke of the One "who is and who was and who is to come". It was no coincidence that there were twelve tribes of Israel and its prophesied Messiah, the ever-traveling Sun, chose twelve disciples to surround Him. Neither is it a coincidence that this Messiah stated He is the eternal "I AM" seven times to those who had ears to hear what the Spirit spoke, nor that He sent seven letters to seven churches by way of the seven spirits. He appeared among seven golden lampstands to John the Revelator, His voice booming like a trumpet and the roaring of many waters. This musical symphony of the Soul has the greatest significance for our Spiritual story, as it orients our imagination towards the fulfillment of our Spiritual freedom in this everlasting relation - "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends..."

[AshvinP]

I obviously have a lot to learn about mysticism. I only recently became interested in it, because before my experience I was certain stuff like that were balloney. It's both fascinating and terrifying to me. Fascinating, because it opened up vistas I couldn't even imagine before. It's like I've been living in a cell with closed windows, and I didn't even know that there was something outside the cell. But also terrifying, because then, the possibilities are endless and things I used to think of as just stuff to scare people may very well be real at some level of reality. And while you have those who had tread these paths before you and shared their insights, fundamentally, everyone has to take these journeys by themselves. And that's really, really scary.

That is how I also felt when first reading Steiner's The Philosophy of Freedom. It was like discovering a magic potion which confirmed everything I had ever wanted to be true about the structure of Reality. Some point along the way, it then dawns on us that the Genie does not only grant our wishes but asks for our self-sacrifice as well. That is the real scary part for me, but it also stimulates a profound meaning by way of knowing which makes all the sacrifices bearable. Without that knowing, we are still forced to make the sacrifices in one way or another, only we do it out of coerced necessity instead of our own personal volition - we are forced on a journey instead of taking it ourselves. The former is the primary danger of mysticism, born of "occult imprisonment" i.e. archetypal possession as opposed to spiritual freedom.

[Hedge90]

I'll definitely look that book up, thanks.
Btw in the meantime I was thinking about something. Religions and esoteric traditions other than Buddhism maintain the existence of a self that survives after the death of the body. But at the same time, the original idea of Hell in many traditions - before it started to be painted as a place of physical torment in the Middle Ages - was basically just oblivion; eradication of the soul (correct me if I'm wrong).
Now, I remembered that the final part of my trip was total union with everything, with complete loss of my self. It was infinitely calm, there was nothing "bad" in it, but my "self" died there. "I" did not have the power to come back from there; I was cast back. And as I was cast back into my body and ego, even though what I just experienced was complete calm, I was overcome with terror (though I ascribed that to the trauma my ego just had).
Do you think, that perhaps I may have seen what those traditions referred to as "Hell"? Do you think that maybe the purpose of mysticism is to develop the aspects of the self that will keep the soul intact and not let it just dissolve?
This is pure speculation and I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm merely asking what you think.

I obviously have a lot to learn about mysticism. I only recently became interested in it, because before my experience I was certain stuff like that were balloney. It's both fascinating and terrifying to me. Fascinating, because it opened up vistas I couldn't even imagine before. It's like I've been living in a cell with closed windows, and I didn't even know that there was something outside the cell. But also terrifying, because then, the possibilities are endless and things I used to think of as just stuff to scare people may very well be real at some level of reality. And while you have those who had tread these paths before you and shared their insights, fundamentally, everyone has to take these journeys by themselves. And that's really, really scary.

That is how I also felt when first reading Steiner's The Philosophy of Freedom. It was like discovering a magic potion which confirmed everything I had ever wanted to be true about the structure of Reality. Some point along the way, it then dawns on us that the Genie does not only grant our wishes but asks for our self-sacrifice as well. That is the real scary part for me, but it also stimulates a profound meaning by way of knowing which makes all the sacrifices bearable. Without that knowing, we are still forced to make the sacrifices in one way or another, only we do it out of coerced necessity instead of our own personal volition - we are forced on a journey instead of taking it ourselves. The former is the primary danger of mysticism, born of "occult imprisonment" i.e. archetypal possession as opposed to spiritual freedom.

[AshvinP]

I'll definitely look that book up, thanks.
Btw in the meantime I was thinking about something. Religions and esoteric traditions other than Buddhism maintain the existence of a self that survives after the death of the body. But at the same time, the original idea of Hell in many traditions - before it started to be painted as a place of physical torment in the Middle Ages - was basically just oblivion; eradication of the soul (correct me if I'm wrong).
Now, I remembered that the final part of my trip was total union with everything, with complete loss of my self. It was infinitely calm, there was nothing "bad" in it, but my "self" died there. "I" did not have the power to come back from there; I was cast back. And as I was cast back into my body and ego, even though what I just experienced was complete calm, I was overcome with terror (though I ascribed that to the trauma my ego just had).
Do you think, that perhaps I may have seen what those traditions referred to as "Hell"? Do you think that maybe the purpose of mysticism is to develop the aspects of the self that will keep the soul intact and not let it just dissolve?
This is pure speculation and I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm merely asking what you think.

I will refer you to Cleric's earlier response for details on your question, because I simply do not know those details. In general, I don't think Hell was ever considered an "eradication" of the soul until the modern age. That is when we get the "annihilation" doctrine in the Western church - I could be wrong about that, but I am pretty sure that is correct. Right now, it is probably best for us to think of "Hell" as a psycho-spiritual state which we can fall into by succumbing too much to certain spiritual forces - Luciferic (over-spiritualized mysticism) and Ahrimanic (sensuous materialism). Your experience would be more the Luciferic one, where your "I" seemed to dissolve but did not actually dissolve (at least not the higher "I" who is fundamental). So yes, in that sense you may have experienced some of what has been called "Hell", and one core purpose of spiritual scientific training is to go beyond the threshold with the ego intact. I am sure Cleric can correct or clarify that if necessary. Below is his response:


viewtopic.php?p=8377#p8377

There's great difference, though, when this loosening is achieved entirely though our own conscious effort. The slow but certain and safe path of gradual spiritual development, through spiritual exercises, doesn't simply eject us out of the body 'without the use of substances'. First and foremost we need to strengthen our thinking, feeling and willing by imbuing them with strong moral impulses. When this is achieved, there's great difference in the way we enter the spirit realm. When this happened to you, you were sent on a moon trip - you lost your "I" because you could no longer recognize anything that depends on your "I" - or at least your "I" as you know it from Earthly life. Yet it was not really gone, it was simply helplessly spread out and contemplating it's impotence to find its bearings. You know this is so, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to say that these events happened to you. The same essential being that you call "I", and which intuitively experiences your Earthly life, was also there in the ego-less state, even though it couldn't recognize its activity in the completely alien surroundings.

When we enter the out of body state through proper development, we're not lost. We interact with spiritual process and beings. From that vantage point, our ordinary ego is always at hand. This is very significant difference. We can enter and leave our ordinary state at will. In fact, it's of primer importance to always have our lower self in sight, so to speak. The reasons for this will take us too far, but let's just say that that's how we can translate the experiences between the higher and the sensory world. We investigate how our ordinary self comes to be, how its weaved of the higher order spiritual process and the threads of Karma. If we don't have our lower self in sight, reality becomes split for us - into the higher completely inexplicable realm, and the lower realm of the sensory and intellectual ego. The bridge can never be found in this way.
...
So what can be done? As said, one variant is simply to try and distract yourself and hope you'll be able to fill your consciousness with enough trivialities of life, such that you simply forget as much as possible the experience. You'll revisit the experience again at the moment of death. This would be a waste, in my opinion. The other variant is to take your life in hands and begin to develop what you have accidentally unleashed. I must tell you that this is more difficult than if you start from baseline consciousness and proceed with proper exercises. Now you'll have to undo many distorted ideas which seem to you as great revelations but are actually the best a unprepared ego could make out of perceptions in a realm, for which it is utterly unfit.