Idealist vision for 2050?

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Lou Gold
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

Post by Lou Gold »

David_Sundaram wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:22 pm
What I shared was 'aimed' at those here who (I imagined) might be ready to go 'beyond' being 'children' - the above part of my statement which you quoted was just a 'nod' to those (here or elsewhere) who weren't (ready). If I had a 'child' I was taking care of, I actually would let him or her know something about life-after-death and reincarnation as well as how (I think) civilization progresses (thought trouble) so he.she wouldn't get bummed out by the current state humanity is in.
Matthew 18:3

I'll leave it to you to not "get bummed out by the current state humanity is in." From my POV it would be better to look clearly, feel the sadness, grieve the losses and get on with the work. It's not all about love and joy. But maybe that's what you mean by "not getting bummed out" ? If so, I would not challenge that.
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Cleric K
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

Post by Cleric K »

Lou Gold wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:48 am It means having a conscious dance more aligned with reality
Lou, things get much deeper than that.

First, we have to differentiate between healthy imagination and wishful fantasy. The latter turns the child into a person identifying with his/her fantasies and then being crushed at every step when the fantasies themselves are being crushed by reality.

Think of a thing as simple as Santa Claus. Sooner or later children understand that there's no fat guy going through the chimney. It is grossly underestimated what the effects of this are for the fragile child soul. Think of it: you (the child) find out that it's all been a big lie, the world is a much more prosaic, dry, wicked place. Then why we wonder when children become hardened egoists? We are preparing them for that! We're basically telling them "it's all lies around you, it's a jungle, you'll have to do on your own, grow up!".

Contrast this with a legend of a prince that conquers and tames the dragon, and saves the beautiful princess. Now we are again stirring the child's imagination, it lives in feelings and pictures but there's a great difference. What we thus convey to the child is reality - even if dressed in pictures. As the child matures, it finds out that the prince (the Spirit) conquers and tames the dragon (the lower nature - unrestrained desires and passions) and sets free the beautiful princess (the soul). And if the child asks "But is the dragon real?", we can answer "Yes, it is absolutely real. But you won't find it outside on the streets. It exists in the same world that you visit every night when you sleep in your bed. One day you'll meet him. But you have to be patient and prepared. You have to get strong first. Now eat your breakfast." Note that we have said not a single lie to the child. We are nourishing the child's imagination not in order to make it into a fantast but to prepare the most fertile soil for its development.

We can't talk to the child directly about soul, spirit, lower nature and so on. It is simply not in position to think about these things because it has not yet differentiated them within itself. Take some highly developed individuality, a spiritual master, that is incarnating today. Despite of his (or her, could be incarnating as a woman) high development, he still needs to pass through a long adaptation to his new environment - especially to the body of emotions and desires, of pain and pleasure. Even this lofty individuality cannot help but be dominated by cry when he can't get what he wants. The child does not think to itself "Yes, I'm a mature, creative being, but I can't quite come to grips with my emotional life". This comes later. At the early stages, even this evolved spirit must grow anew and in the process he cannot distinguish himself from the emotions that are ruling him. Sadly, even most adults can't do that. That's why we speak to the child "in parables". We are planting seeds that will grow into reality.

There's very little understanding of these things today. Parents take great pride when their three year old can count to one hundred and add numbers. Little that they know is that they are preparing a cripple. And we're not singing "We don't need no education" here. It's just that there's time for everything and the knowledge of this time can come only from clear understanding of the human being. Conceptual and abstract thinking should emerge only after the child has expanded its soul volume as healthy imagination. Through play, music, crafts, it first learns to feel numbers, to live with them as pictures. Only later, as the imaginative space increases in "resolution", in a completely natural way, these pictorial feelings precipitate as concepts of the mind. In this way the conceptual knowledge of the child proceeds from reality and is not simply grafted to it. This is exactly what happens when one force feeds the child abstract math or any other purely abstract facts. This has rigidifying, sclerotizing effect on the organism. The soul loses its plasticity way too early. Then, at later age, all kinds of diseases start to emerge and the poor being wonders what he or she has done to deserve it. There's a massive difference in the way abstract numbers are felt when force fed in this way. They are not felt at all. The depth of living number is as little felt and understood, as a parrot understands the words it's repeating. Of course, the child shows great creativity and ingenuity in the process but nevertheless, this knowledge creates out of it a cold calculating mind, out of touch with any soul depth. But this is not surprising... especially in an age where it's the official knowledge that consciousness is equal to computation.

So we see that great knowledge and wisdom is needed for educating a child. It is not at all easy to reach these things. Everything must be fought for by sweat on the brow, so to speak. Even if we change a single word and say "destroys the dragon" instead of "tames", we'll be inviting quite different soul forces into the child. These things can never be arrived at by wishful thinking or by staying with legs crossed, eyes closed and imagining that the world does not exist - which paradoxically is considered the highest wisdom.

It is not enough to subscribe to ahimsa and hope for the best. Even if we educate our children not to kill animals and cut down trees, this is not enough. The child must be gradually led towards true understanding of what it is. If we understand what man really is then all these things follow as natural consequence. This is not to say that they should not be talked about. But the child must see in the adult, a being that has wisdom, strength and love, that it is yet to attain. It will naturally try to copy the behavior of those it admires but it's only when it reaches its full self-consciousness, as a free spiritual being, that it'll understand the right place of minerals, plants, animals and humans - not as something implanted on it from outside but as direct spiritual intuition.

So to bring it to the topic of the thread. Personally, I hope and pray that one of the many things that should see gradual change, would be concretely child development. And one of the central problems that stays on the way of this, is lies. Lies are so engraved into our civilization that it cannot exist without them! And it's considered "natural". But it's precisely the opposite of natural. And this is just one of the checkboxes in the task list of evolving humanity - make lying a thing of the past. And hoping and praying, although necessary, are also not enough. We have to start from ourselves.

Now this gives us a way to see Matthew 18:3 in a more constructive light. The Kingdom is not entered when everyone becomes a wishful dreamer but when the heart is pure as in a child. We can't ignore the world we're living in. We should have the mind of an adult - clear as crystal, as bright as the Sun, objective, precise, impartial and sober. And this mind paves the way to the Kingdom only when the heart is pure, humble and loving as that of a child.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

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Now this gives us a way to see Matthew 18:3 in a more constructive light. The Kingdom is not entered when everyone becomes a wishful dreamer but when the heart is pure as in a child. We can't ignore the world we're living in. We should have the mind of an adult - clear as crystal, as bright as the Sun, objective, precise, impartial and sober. And this mind paves the way to the Kingdom only when the heart is pure, humble and loving as that of a child.
Believing in your dream and being a wishful dreamer are not the same things. There are dreams and dreams. If you believe that the modern adult has a mind clear as crystal, as bright as the Sun, objective, precise, impartial and sober, we live on different planets. Who teaches kids to believe in Santa Claus? BTW, the real jungle is not a pack of lies. There, folkloric tales like, "if lost, follow the blue butterfly" are not nonsense. The magnificent Blue Morpho does in fact prefer open spaces in the forest and open spaces are where the forest has been cleared for human homes. The functional tale does not have to be "grown out of." But where the kids are taught lies it often takes the purity of a child to see that the Emperor has no clothes.
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Cleric K
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

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Lou,
I understand your position.

Of course modern man doesn't have a mind like that. Neither does he have a pure heart. These are the things each one of us should strive for.
And the functional tale does not have to be "grown out of". That's exactly what I said - it becomes reality. That's why it's important to have the kinds of fairytales that are established in reality from the start. Because there are other fairytales that at the end dissipate in a cloud of smoke.

Every manifested thing is conceived in the Spirit as a pure idea. Then it becomes a feeling in the heart - enthusiasm, joy. Finally it becomes deeds.

Even a house is manifested in this way. Now who would deny that you can't build a house by only contemplating its idea and wishing for it? One needs knowledge of the materials and laws of the Earth and hard work.

It is the same with the Kingdom. It wont build itself by just concentrating on it. We have to transform every aspect of our lives - economics, education, arts, science - everything should become expression of the Spirit. And there is One Spirit.

It's perfectly understandable that such a vision of the future is not the most appealing. It's much more soothing to think of people lying on the grass and enjoying the simple life. Yet we have messed up this world as it is and we are responsible for it - it can only be redempted by us. Us - not as simple biological units but as living representatives of the Cosmic Man.

One does not make a mess and then leave it to the Universe to take care of it. Just as we have involuted, becoming more and more deeply entangled in sin and desires, so we'll have to walk the upward path of evolution. If I've been drinking and smoking all life and at the end I decide that I've been unwise, and start dreaming of the Good, would that undo all the harm that I've done to myself and others? Karma has been created and it'll need to be settled.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

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It is not enough to subscribe to ahimsa and hope for the best. Even if we educate our children not to kill animals and cut down trees, this is not enough. The child must be gradually led towards true understanding of what it is. If we understand what man really is then all these things follow as natural consequence. This is not to say that they should not be talked about. But the child must see in the adult, a being that has wisdom, strength and love, that it is yet to attain. It will naturally try to copy the behavior of those it admires but it's only when it reaches its full self-consciousness, as a free spiritual being, that it'll understand the right place of minerals, plants, animals and humans - not as something implanted on it from outside but as direct spiritual intuition.


BTW, the backstory on ahimsa is pretty interesting. As you know, it emerged in India around the 8th century, which was a time when population increase was beginning to outstrp the abilty to provide a meat-based diet. Switching to a plant-based diet allowed more humans to be fed. However, dairy products were not given up. Milk cows must regularly have calves, boys and girls. The girls become sacred cows because they will eventually produce milk but what about the boys? They get sold to meat-eating cultures, mostly Muslims now located largely across the borders, and India is the 5th largest beef exporting country in the world.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

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It is the same with the Kingdom. It wont build itself by just concentrating on it. We have to transform every aspect of our lives - economics, education, arts, science - everything should become expression of the Spirit. And there is One Spirit.


Certainly! It takes a village to raise a child, a village that both teaches, trains and practices the dream. Perhaps, a village like the often cited by me Kogi. AND, the expression/manifestation on earth of the Kingdom will not be realized by dreaming that its location is elsewhere.
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Cleric K
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

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Lou, :)
I think it is time for you to present your Idealist Vision :) Everyone else has given their shots.

Let's imagine that the Younger Brother takes the message of the Kogi in all heart. How would you picture life on Earth then? In what direction will it be going? Will there be some further progress (not speaking of technical)? What would be the higher dreams of people on Earth united by the Great Mother?
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David_Sundaram
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

Post by David_Sundaram »

Lou Gold wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:05 am Matthew 18:3

Being like little children (i.e. love-joy/playful) doesn't (IMO) mean being as ignorant as 'children' generally are.

I'll leave it to you to not "get bummed out by the current state humanity is in." From my POV it would be better to look clearly, feel the sadness, grieve the losses and get on with the work. It's not all about love and joy. But maybe that's what you mean by "not getting bummed out" ? If so, I would not challenge that.
IMO, what you are advocating is as unrealistic as telling someone that they grow a garden by planting and watering seeds in the middle of winter! There is a long period of igreat loss and intense grief (which the 'children' you refer to haven't even begun to imagine!) which lies ahead and requires real (practical!) guidance and coaching (if said 'children' are going to become able to get through it).

The 'sustainability' (etc.) 'dream' you advocate is just a sweet pollyanna (i.e. unrealistically 'positive') candy concoction/handout, IMO' That is, at this point in time.

'Children' NOW most 'need', IMO, is to be 'prepared' to face and navigate the reality of what's coming in foreseeable future, the 'volcanic' repercussions of this. For one instance, the repercussions of this:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... x96Rfa6VFk

There are many other equally dire happening/trendencies afoot (IMO at least!), which those who 'see' that said extinction-laced 'winter' is inescapable are aware of and know cannot simply be pollyanna-brushed aside. This makes "The days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?", what 'children' most urgently 'need' to be pre'pared' to face.

Any notion that such boulder-strewn white-water-rapids future can be spiritually 'survived' and 'navigated' simply by 'finishing' grieving and focusing on 'sustainability' principles (etc.) is grossly proverbial-ostrich sticking-one-head-in-the-sand miss-leading (of both others and yourself), IMO.

My thinking on this score is completely in synch what Cleric has said above.

On a lighter note: Did'ja hear the one about two long-legged ostrich gal-chicks that, as they were walking along, noticed they were being followed by two dark-glassed, leather-jacket wearing ostrich bad-boy types?

They (the gals) walked faster and dodged around trees to get away from them them, only to notice that the fellas also picked up their pace and, in time, were getting closer and closer to their tails.

At one point, at the suggestion of one, the gals decided the best thing to do was to stick/bury their heads in a pile of sand.

When the boys got up to where the gals were, they looked around, and one said to the other: "Where'd they go?!" :lol:
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Lou Gold
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

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David_Sundaram wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:32 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:05 am Matthew 18:3

Being like little children (i.e. love-joy/playful) doesn't (IMO) mean being as ignorant as 'children' generally are.

I'll leave it to you to not "get bummed out by the current state humanity is in." From my POV it would be better to look clearly, feel the sadness, grieve the losses and get on with the work. It's not all about love and joy. But maybe that's what you mean by "not getting bummed out" ? If so, I would not challenge that.
IMO, what you are advocating is as unrealistic as telling someone that they grow a garden by planting and watering seeds in the middle of winter! There is a long period of igreat loss and intense grief (which the 'children' you refer to haven't even begun to imagine!) which lies ahead and requires real (practical!) guidance and coaching (if said 'children' are going to become able to get through it).

The 'sustainability' (etc.) 'dream' you advocate is just a sweet pollyanna (i.e. unrealistically 'positive') candy concoction/handout, IMO' That is, at this point in time.
;) Here we go again. I believe I said, I'll leave it to you to not "get bummed out by the current state humanity is in." From my POV it would be better to look clearly, feel the sadness, grieve the losses and get on with the work. It's not all about love and joy. But maybe that's what you mean by "not getting bummed out" ? If so, I would not challenge that. BTW, innocence does not equal ignorance when it comes to the Emperor having no clothes.

PS: Be careful with the links. There's a moderator watching. :)
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Lou Gold
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Re: Idealist vision for 2050?

Post by Lou Gold »

Cleric K wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:11 am Lou, :)
I think it is time for you to present your Idealist Vision :) Everyone else has given their shots.

Let's imagine that the Younger Brother takes the message of the Kogi in all heart. How would you picture life on Earth then? In what direction will it be going? Will there be some further progress (not speaking of technical)? What would be the higher dreams of people on Earth united by the Great Mother?
Fair enough but please remember that I'm a storyteller and not a philosopher. If I was to invent a philosophy category for myself it might fall somewhere between being a multi-aspect monist and a mysterian idealist. But I'm not placing bets on categories. Afterall, what do I know?

I can share a story, a real dream I had a couple of weeks ago. I rarely dream. This one was brief and special. I'm still unpacking it.

In my dream I saw a vast plain with many people milling about in ordinary ways on a flat with no vegetation or critters, more like a giant plaza. Suddenly, a sinkhole appeared, expanding and swallowing the center. The people retreated farther until all were equidistant from the old center and standing holding hands in awe of the wonder and terror of what had happened.

What would I teach the children? I would teach them to hold hands and pay attention. That's my vision.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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