Eugene I wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:46 pm
I'm using "computability" as an analogy for "experience".
But it is ironic to me that you are using abstract mathematics to deny existence to the experience of what you call the "abstract" idea of infinity wholeness.
OK, here is a simple question: we know that the abstract idea of matter exists. Then why idealism claims that matter itself does not exist? That is because if an abstract idea of something exists, it does not necessarily mean that the "something" that this idea is about also actually exists and can be experienced.
You were not only using it as an analogy, though, but claiming what is incomputable according to mathematical arguments is also incapable of being experienced. Maybe that's not what you intended. We don't need to argue that - suffice to say, I disagree.
Two things here - 1) I am not claiming "wholeness of infinity" exists simply because I can abstractly conceive of it (rather I think it may flow from your conclusion re: Godel theorem), 2) in a meaningful sense (the only sense there is under idealism), "matter"
does exist - it is what we call images in the sense-world that are devoid of Spirit from our 1st-person perspective (the only perspective there is). The question of
why they are devoid of Spirit in the modern age is a massive one and I am exploring that in the integral myth essays.
Eugene wrote:But I can see the contradiction that you are pointing to (using the number analogy again): if every single possible number exists then how come the infinity of all numbers does not? There are two possible answers:
1. Platonic answer. Yes, every possible number actually exists. But you are right, in this case the whole infinity of all numbers necessarily has to exist.
2. Non-Platonic answer: any number actually exists only at the instance when it is actually computed/experienced. In this case every possible number does not always exist (until it is computed), and therefore the actual infinity of all numbers does not actually exist as well.
To date, Cleric still has the best illustration of why #2 is pragmatically equivalent to #1, which I frequently quote but will quote again (my emphasis):
Cleric wrote:What I said above answers this question. It's useless to try to imagine pure ideas without experience, precisely because, as you say, we only create a hard problem for ourselves. Yet this doesn't preclude the fact that the experienced ideas exist in certain relations. To give a simplified example, if I think about 1 and 2, then 4 and 5, does this mean that 3 doesn't exist until it is experienced? From experiential perspective every idea exists for me only when I experience it. But still, the relation between 2 and 4 is such that they can only be what they are if there's 3 in between. That's why I've always said (when you bring the Platonism argument) that it's irrelevant to me to fantasize some abstract container for ideas, which I can never experience in its purity. The important thing is that when I discover 3, nothing really changes for 1,2,4,5 - they are only complemented, the ideal picture becomes more complete. Even if 3 was never discovered, the relation between the above numbers would be as if 3 exists. This would be different if after the discovery of 3 all other numbers change relations. Then we would really have justification to speak of ideas being created. The act of creation of the idea has measurable effect and displaces all other ideas in some way. But as long as I discover ideas and beings, which only complement my own experiential ideal landscape, all talks about if these ideas and beings exist in 'pure form' before I experience them, is pointless
Eugene wrote:But as I said above, if we extrapolate the statement #1 to the set of all possible ideas, we run into the Russel's paradox (because the set of all ideas is itself an idea and therefore must include itself), and that is a very serious one. The only way around it that mathematicians found so far is just to exclude the objects like "the set of all sets that include itself" from existence in mathematics (which was accomplished in the Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory). And the same logic would equally apply to the set of all ideas that includes itself.
But apart from the the Russel paradox, the specific statements (#1 or #2) both seem to be logically consistent. And as I said, to me the question of which one it true is undecideable because I have no way to prove or disprove ether one. Among mathematicians there are as many proponents of #1 as there are of #2. But as far as I know, the fact is that nobody so far was able to experience the whole infinity of all numbers (as well as the whole infinity of all ideations), so there is no experiential evidence that such thing actually exists.
In my view, your use of Russel's paradox here is basically saying, "
the abstract intellect cannot conceive of whole infinity, therefore it does not exist." That is very similar to Schopenhauer's claim that, since mythological symbols are rife with "paradoxes" when viewed by the abstract intellect, it must not be pointing to any deeper and coherent spiritual reality. That simply ignores the possibility that abstract intellect is not the fundamental max capacity of perception-cognition.
The question of whether anyone has experienced or come closer to experiencing whole infinity or eternity is a more complicated one. Philosophically speaking, if we accept the mumorphic formulation, then we must be experiencing that aspect all the time. Also from the phenomenological approach, which is what Cleric's quote above is referencing, we can also conclude that whole infinity pragmatically exists. But even if you do not accept either of those, I think your own conclusion re: Gödel's theorem also necessitates the pragmatic existence of whole infinity in order to remain internally logically coherent.