These are things we just need to ignore to follow the deeper discussion being had, which is centered around the essence of Thinking spiritual activity since at least the time of the Eleusinian mysteries (which JP refers to explicitly) and Egyptian mysteries to which Pythagoras was initiated (which JV refers to explicitly). Unfortunately they started off the discussion with those topics and then went from there into purely cognitive science issues. I think I still have about 45 min left so maybe they return at the end but it didn't seem that was likely where I left off. Still there is a good deal of those spiritual-philosophical issues raised in the first half.SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:16 amBy his behaviour in the discussion, the interruptions, the talking over instead of listening, the nervous laughter... it looks as if JP himself is partially possessed by a "Satanic spirit". But not very strong such, more like spirit of deep self-doubt which manifests as badly communicating over-reacting and self-important "me, me me" -meme.AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:27 pm Most will probably listen JP and just hear bumbling and confusion (and his interruptions are definitely annoying), but he is operating on the deep mythological level. He is trying to relate what JV is speaking of into the spiritual mythology of Judeo-Christian tradition and what exactly is happening in modern Western society in spiritual-mythological terms. At one point he is almost attributing these things to "Satanic" spirits operating in the modern world, which is probably not the best way to put it.
JP was much, much better in his talk with the young anarchist.
Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
- Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
JP is still looking pained at times, and struggling with his focus and delivery, but here he just looks like someone having a laugh and an animated chat at a pub with a close colleague ... if pubs were open that is.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
-
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Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Why ignored? JV tried to talk about e.g. Thracian shamans (in relation to Pythagoras) - only to be immediately cut by JP obsession with narrative of "high" civilization.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:22 pm These are things we just need to ignore to follow the deeper discussion being had, which is centered around the essence of Thinking spiritual activity since at least the time of the Eleusinian mysteries (which JP refers to explicitly) and Egyptian mysteries to which Pythagoras was initiated (which JV refers to explicitly). Unfortunately they started off the discussion with those topics and then went from there into purely cognitive science issues. I think I still have about 45 min left so maybe they return at the end but it didn't seem that was likely where I left off. Still there is a good deal of those spiritual-philosophical issues raised in the first half.
We've done psychadelics etc. as long as we've been humans. Eleusis is not anything new in that respect.
- Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
At about the 1:36:00 mark, where it gets into the ontological status of consciousness and the Jungian 'unconscious', this conversation is crying out for BK's intervention and participation, making the anticipation all the more eager ...
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
I do blame JP for diverting the discussion away from those things. He was jumping all over the map. I don't see how that could have been anything other than his attempts to relieve pain of sitting still. But I am saying we should try to mine whatever gold we can get from that discussion, now that it's over and it went the way it went. JP may reduce those mysteries to psychedelic use, I am not sure... but they are much more significant than mere use of psychedelics.SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:55 pmWhy ignored? JV tried to talk about e.g. Thracian shamans (in relation to Pythagoras) - only to be immediately cut by JP obsession with narrative of "high" civilization.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:22 pm These are things we just need to ignore to follow the deeper discussion being had, which is centered around the essence of Thinking spiritual activity since at least the time of the Eleusinian mysteries (which JP refers to explicitly) and Egyptian mysteries to which Pythagoras was initiated (which JV refers to explicitly). Unfortunately they started off the discussion with those topics and then went from there into purely cognitive science issues. I think I still have about 45 min left so maybe they return at the end but it didn't seem that was likely where I left off. Still there is a good deal of those spiritual-philosophical issues raised in the first half.
We've done psychadelics etc. as long as we've been humans. Eleusis is not anything new in that respect.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
I've come to the opinion that a lot of people are almost genetically predisposed to being uninterested in ontologies.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:17 pm At about the 1:36:00 mark, where it gets into the ontological status of consciousness and the Jungian 'unconscious', this conversation is crying out for BK's intervention and participation, making the anticipation all the more eager ...
I think BK made an important point when he debated JV. If he was having therapy and he and the therapist were able to 'find meaning' during their sessions, a part of his brain would still be gnawing away at him, as that could just be an overlay, like a plaster covering a wound. I feel the same, but even in the company of passionate philosophers and psychologists I am seeing that I am in a small minority.
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
I really can't figure out why JV does not accept idealism yet... it's like everything else he says about consciousness and knowledge is exactly what flows from idealism, and he even knows BK is making undeniable arguments. Maybe because he thinks idealism is "too simple" of an explanation, and he doesn't want any ontology without a few layers of abstract concepts for the Ground? I don't get it.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
-
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Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
JP had an excellent discussion about psychadelics with an academic researcher. Of course, psychadelics can open "the gates of perception", but similar experiences can and do occur also spontaneously, and what is important is the actual learning and transformation, less so various tools and techniques.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:26 pm I do blame JP for diverting the discussion away from those things. He was jumping all over the map. I don't see how that could have been anything other than his attempts to relieve pain of sitting still. But I am saying we should try to mine whatever gold we can get from that discussion, now that it's over and it went the way it went. JP may reduce those mysteries to psychedelic use, I am not sure... but they are much more significant than mere use of psychedelics.
- Soul_of_Shu
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- Contact:
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
- Soul_of_Shu
- Posts: 2023
- Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
- Contact:
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
The indoctrination surely dies hard, a death that often seems to require some indelible revelatory component, beyond just some cogent intellectual argument, which once attained then renders the intellectual case ancillary. JV may just be in that category.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:53 pmI really can't figure out why JV does not accept idealism yet... it's like everything else he says about consciousness and knowledge is exactly what flows from idealism, and he even knows BK is making undeniable arguments. Maybe because he thinks idealism is "too simple" of an explanation, and he doesn't want any ontology without a few layers of abstract concepts for the Ground? I don't get it.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.