Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:09 pm
Papanca wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:52 amI don't necessarily think the two are related, one can believe in idealism and in the illusory nature of death without believing in any evolving relationnal process, Schopenhauer after all was both an idealist and a pessimist.
Regardless of whether or not Schopenhauer might be viewed as a pessimist—although a nuanced reading of his ideas, such as BK offers in DSM, might dispel this notion—that doesn't mean he thought that because a given subjectified 'personal' consciousness is transitory means that such a conscious entity is not meaningfully participating in a relational process of the evolution of transpersonal ideation, in which even some pessimism, say about the fate of mankind, plays a meaningful part, and indeed cannot be, nor would even happen, without meaning.
I'm not saying that Schopenhauer thought that " because a given subjectified 'personal' consciousness is transitory means that such a conscious entity is not meaningfully participating in a relational process of the evolution of transpersonal ideation", but that he didn't believe in any positive evolution of transpersonal ideation to begin with.
Here are some quotes from Schopenhauer, if he wasn't a pessimist then nobody in the history of humanity ever was and we might as well suppress philosophical pessimism from our vocabulary :
"That human life must be some kind of mistake is sufficiently proved by the simple observation that man is a compound of needs which are hard to satisfy; that their satisfaction achieves nothing but a painless condition in which he is only given over to boredom; and that boredom is a direct proof that existence is in itself valueless, for boredom is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence. For if life, in the desire for which our essence and existence consists, possessed in itself a positive value and real content, there would be no such thing as boredom: mere existence would fulfil and satisfy us. As things are, we take no pleasure in existence except when we are striving after something – in which case distance and difficulties make our goal look as if it would satisfy us (an illusion which fades when we reach it) – or when engaged in purely intellectual activity, in which case we are really stepping out of life so as to regard it from outside, like spectators at a play. Even sensual pleasure itself consists in a continual striving and ceases as soon as its goal is reached. Whenever we are not involved in one or other of these things but directed back to existence itself we are overtaken by its worthlessness and vanity and this is the sensation called boredom."
"In the simple and easily surveyed life of the brutes the emptiness and vanity of the struggle of the whole phenomenon is more easily grasped. The variety of the organisations, the ingenuity of the means, whereby each is adapted to its element and its prey contrasts here distinctly with the want of any lasting final aim; instead of which there presents itself only momentary comfort, fleeting pleasure conditioned by wants, much and long suffering, constant strife, bellum omnium, each one both a hunter and hunted, pressure, want, need, and anxiety, shrieking and howling; and this goes on in secula seculorum, or till once again the crust of the planet breaks."
"The state of human happiness, for the most part, is like certain groups of trees, which seen from a distance look wonderfully fine; but if we go up to them and among them, their beauty disappears; we do not know wherein it lay, for it is only trees that surround us. And so it happens that we often envy the position of others.""
“One simple test of the claim that the pleasure in the world outweighs the pain…is to compare the feelings of an animal that is devouring another with those of the animal being devoured.”
“Optimism, where it is not just the thoughtless talk of someone with only words in his flat head, strikes me as not only absurd, but even a truly wicked way of thinking, a bitter mockery of the unspeakable sufferings of humanity.”
"To some [people], particularly in moments of melancholy mood, the world may perhaps appear as a cabinet of caricatures when considered from the aesthetic angle, from the intellectual angle as a madhouse, and from the moral angle as a hostel for scoundrels."
“If, finally, we were to bring to the sight of everyone the terrible sufferings and afflictions to which his life is constantly exposed, he would be seized with horror...” (rest of the quote )
https://i.redd.it/a487c5o6sw251.png
"I suppose I shall have to be told again that my philosophy is cheerless and comfortless simply because I tell the truth, whereas people want to hear that the Lord has made all things very well. Go to your churches and leave us philosophers in peace! At any rate, do not demand that they should cut their doctrines according to your pattern! This is done by knaves and philosophasters from whom you can order whatever doctrines you like."
And that's just scratching the surface.
Pessimism is generally shunned and disliked, so i'm not surprised that people who like other aspects about Schopenhauer would try to debunk his pessimism. Bernardo Kastrup wasn't even the first, here is another similar attempt
https://i.redd.it/amod31xfgva61.png , to me, it seems like mere projection.