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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:39 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
That was Santeri's observation. Still I'm not getting your point.
Maybe we could all chip in and buy Lou a copy of
Decoding Schopenhauer's Metaphysics 
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:08 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:28 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:06 pm
Under idealism Consciousness is the ontological primitive. The activity of this fundamental, irreducible Consciousness, i.e. its 'mentation'/'ideation', is its ontological imperative ~ as inextricable as formlessness><form. I'd suggest that any reasoning is a function of it being meta-conscious.
Process philosophy does not support the ideation of any ontological primitive in the first place, substance is not presumed. The problem with substance metaphysics, which also Bernardo runs into, is projection of meta-cognition into infinite regress of nesting with cosmic solipsism on top. The lonely navel gazing god as the experiencER that experiencing supposedly requires. Whether this is intended or not, it's an image hard to avoid when starting from substance metaphysics.
Sorry, I understood that Lou was querying about idealism, not process philosophy. In any case, what is this 'substance' you are referring to?
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:24 pm
by SanteriSatama
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:08 pm
In any case, what is this 'substance' you are referring to?
I don't know, it doesn't feel like anything. Feeling higher with substance. Ah, feels!
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:33 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
Actually, I'm not sure that idealism isn't a process philosophy, i.e. Process of Mind eternally dreaming stuff up, with no point of origin other than ever-now.
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:42 pm
by Lou Gold
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:34 pm
Under idealism Consciousness is the ontological primitive. The activity of this fundamental, irreducible Consciousness, i.e. its 'mentation'/'ideation', is its ontological imperative ~ as inextricable as formlessness><form. I'd suggest that any reasoning is a function of it being meta-conscious
Did you just violate your initial observation? >>>
It is a metaphysical position expressed in language, in that sense no.
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:08 pm
SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:28 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:06 pm
Under idealism Consciousness is the ontological primitive. The activity of this fundamental, irreducible Consciousness, i.e. its 'mentation'/'ideation', is its ontological imperative ~ as inextricable as formlessness><form. I'd suggest that any reasoning is a function of it being meta-conscious.
Process philosophy does not support the ideation of any ontological primitive in the first place, substance is not presumed. The problem with substance metaphysics, which also Bernardo runs into, is projection of meta-cognition into infinite regress of nesting with cosmic solipsism on top. The lonely navel gazing god as the experiencER that experiencing supposedly requires. Whether this is intended or not, it's an image hard to avoid when starting from substance metaphysics.
Sorry, I understood that Lou was querying about idealism, not process philosophy. In any case, what is this 'substance' you are referring to?
Dana, perhaps I was actually querying not only narrowly about Idealism but more generally about philosophy. In regard to Santeri's 'substance' I'm not sure of his meaning but it brings me again to a great mysteriousness, a felt quality that for me is substantial.
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:50 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
a felt quality that for me is substantial.
How excitational !
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:05 pm
by Lou Gold
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:50 pm
a felt quality that for me is substantial.
How excitational !
Coincidently or synchronously, the question "Can Idealism be without thought?" came to me during my morning devotions at the seashore and, as I contemplated posting it to the forum, big Humpback Whales began leaping vertically out of the ocean in a direct line of vision from the sheltered pond where I was standing. It was ... yes! ... most excitational, as I had never before witnessed such an extraordinary display. Praises be!
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:13 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:05 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:50 pm
a felt quality that for me is substantial.
How excitational !
Coincidently or synchronously, the question "Can Idealism be without thought?" came to me during my morning devotions at the seashore and, as I contemplated posting it to the forum, big Humpback Whales began leaping vertically out of the ocean in a direct line of vision from the sheltered pond where I was standing. It was ... yes! ... most excitational, as had never before witnessed such an extraordinary display. Praises be!
M-a-L ... Mysteriousness as Lila ... Leaping Leviathans !!
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:19 pm
by SanteriSatama
Asubjective can breath soap bubbles that can contain and observe subject-object relations as wholes. Not only neither, but also both. Temporal foam. Varieties of time travel: sails, anchors and other hooks with ropes, floating, imagination.
Re: Can Idealism be without thought?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:27 pm
by SanteriSatama
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:42 pm
a felt quality that for me is substantial.
Who would want idealism without thinking!