Philosophical Speculations

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:38 pm BTW, I just asked ChatGPT these questions . . . question text from above post by Ashwin . . . how close\far off is ChatGPT from intended?

Quite impressive. I often wonder if some people I talk to are actually AIs...

Quite soon these AIs will populate the virtual space, so participating in forums will not make much practical sense anymore.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:38 pm BTW, I just asked ChatGPT these questions . . . question text from above post by Ashwin . . . how close\far off is ChatGPT from intended?

There are infinitely many ways to state these things. We could switch "higher cognition" for "fully conscious intuitive thinking", "curvatures of potential" for "configuration spaces with potential states of being", etc. The GPT shows us just how many outer configurations can be used to convey certain meaning, but it won't make a bit of difference if our own thinking can only resonate with superficial patina of meaning. One person can read GPT's answers and get something very much attuned to my intended meaning, but another can read it and come away with a completely abstract understanding which ends up being counter-productive to grasping that intended meaning. Put simply, the intentions do not live only in the outer forms, but in the consciousness which interacts with those forms.

So, there's no way for me to tell if that was my intended meaning without you also relating your understanding of what GPT churned out. But clearly that comment about the "planetary spheres" was not intended to impart understanding of what actually takes place across the threshold. It had one simple intention - to convey that there is no cognitive discontinuity between incarnate and disincarnate life which prevents us from permeating the latter with concrete, precise knowledge. And therefore every individual here can begin to discern these realities from within if they are willing to live with the Cosmic responsibility which comes with Cosmic knowledge. Otherwise the higher worlds will remain veiled to us, for our own benefit.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:14 pm So, to wrap up:
- I wanted people on the forum to be more aware about nonduality, and I consider my activities here complete. We discussed this topic in sufficient details.
- I am interested in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices as I see them having a lot of useful material.

Aren't you forgetting about your interest in warning Anthroposophists that they are likely following evil astral beings of the false light path? I wonder how that squares with your interest in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices... Yet another inner contradiction which will go unnoticed, because it's 'sectarian' to strive towards noticing and resolving inner contradictions which keep us blindly oscillating within perceived dualities.

This is also relevant to the Anthroposophy where we ae supposed to evolve through a guidance from and connection to the beings of higher hierarchies. How do we know if these beings are indeed the benevolent ones who they claim they are and not the members of the corrupted hierarchy? In the astral realm beings can take any appearance, project any kind of energy (love, peace etc) and call themselves by any names. Since the human souls are wiped-out of the pre-birth memories, they are usually very ignorant and naive about realities in the nonphysical domains and can be easily deceived and manipulated. So, it's just a warning for the practitioners of Anthroposophy.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:38 pm how close\far off is ChatGPT from intended?

As I see it, the important point is that the words by themselves, without our conscious intelligence behind, can't be said to be close to, or far off from, an intended meaning, because they don't encapsulate or hold any meaning, they only point to it. It's very different.


It's as if someone came in and gave you a plank of plywood, a Japanese saw, a few screws and tools, and told you to make a stool. And I am given the same material to make one as well. Surely your finished creation would be different from mine, even if both are intended to mean the same thing - to sit down. When we are finished with the work, we put our creations in a public space and see if people actually use the two pieces as we intended, as seats. If they do, it shows that the meaning we wanted to convey - sitting down - was well understood by means of the objects we created, even if the two stools look different. Maybe we'll notice that some people get it, some people don't, and some will only understand "sitting down" with your stool, and not with mine, or the other way around.


In the same way, for every one meaning, there are many ways to convey it to others, with different words. But just like the stool in itself doesn't bear any meaning (only a person does, by taking a concrete action and sitting on it) so the words alone don't bear any meaning, no matter if it's in Ashvin's version, in ChatGPT version, or other. They are only stimulators of meaning. And we can respond or not to the stimuli, by taking a concrete meaning-forming action within us.


So in this case, if the GPT's version is a better handle for you, a better stimulus, to help you take within yourself the concrete action (thinking gesture) that will bring the meaning to life, that's great!
The important thing is, can we make the meaning happen within us? Some wording can help us better than other ones, depending on our unique personality, but words are only a stimulus, we can't count on any words to offer us meaning on a silver plate just like that. We always have to make a personal creative effort of meaning-making.


All this was to say that words - GPT or other - can't be close to/far off from the intended meaning. Only conscious beings like you and me can.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:14 pm So, to wrap up:
- I wanted people on the forum to be more aware about nonduality, and I consider my activities here complete. We discussed this topic in sufficient details.
- I am interested in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices as I see them having a lot of useful material. But because of the sectarian approach chosen by the leaders of this forum I will not be further actively participating. I may answer Cleric's questions, it looks that we had a constructive dialog recently, but I will not be responding to Ashvin's posts, not because of any personal issues, but because I do not subscribe to the sectarian way that Anthroposophy is presented here by Ashvin.

OK, so we have established that the kind of Oneness we’re speaking of is not so much concerned with oneness with other beings (let’s call it ‘horizontal’) but with oneness with the undivided foundation of reality (‘vertical’).

Although there’s a lot of talk about ‘no separate me’, ‘no distinction between me and phenomena’, all of this should be understood mainly for the vertical oneness. Otherwise there’s quite distinct ‘nondual me’. For example, after death we’re a very well defined being, which, for example, has no intentions to reincarnate. This clearly distinguishes us from other beings that are going to incarnate. This is well established already – there’s complete vertical oneness but not so much horizontal oneness (there are soul interest groups and so on).

I repeat these things because I believe that the ‘no separate me’ language is quite misleading. I think that for most people ‘no separate me’ readily means that we have no distinct individuality, while you mean quite the opposite. We have very distinct individuality. In fact, that individuality is almost completely independent of anything that other beings are doing.

This leads us to a kind of Cosmology where the first step of manifestation of the Undivided One Potential is the differentiation into very independent nondual selves. We can illustrate this in the following way:



The green line is this mystery of differentiation where the one becomes many. Yet this line is so thin that it is practically non-existent. The monadic perspectives feel themselves to be completely one with the Unity above. Yet … they are also very independent.

This is also very similar to Adur’s philosophy, where the unity was presented as the Absolute Nothingness. But in both cases the first step of manifestation is for the potential to break up into independent monadic perspectives. This is like ‘the first day of creation’ in such philosophies. From that point onwards the monadic beings interact to create consensus realities (Adur’s law of consistency).

So in these Cosmologies, we have the Undivided Potential and then the independent monadic existences of that potential. Thus our personal soul rays are the primary creation, everything else is only interactions. In all cases, just like BK’s dissociation, this transition at the green line is a major mystery. In general, that question is simply ignored. It is enough to know that the green line is of zero-thickness, that we’re the Unified potential and we have very independent existence. Thus we have a Cosmos of Divine nondual selves which interact with each other. The fact that we experience ourselves into a perspective with exactly this granularity is simply accepted as an unquestionable feature of reality. There’s no spiritual ‘structure’ that explains how and why the One divides in precisely this way.

Now everything that higher cognition is concerned with, lies within the green line. I hope it is understandable how Cosmologies which start with the undivided foundation and then immediately bifurcate into nondual selves, practically flatten any gradient that might be present within the green line into nothing.

We need not confuse the oneness of which you speak, with full equality with the total undivided potential. To pinpoint what we’re talking about we have to address the question of the origin of the monadic experience and its final destiny.

A while ago you said that at some point the individuated nondual selves may choose to dissolve into the undivided potential. Thus the green line is like a binary threshold. We either have individuated experience below the line, where the One Self exercises its freedom and sovereignty in an independent journey, or we have the complete dissolution in the full potential above the line.

What do you think about the possibility that this transition is not binary but a whole mystery of the Cosmos lies within the green line, which turns out to be Divine hierarchical gradient?

Please don’t hastily say that you agree and you have always been talking about that same thing because it is not so. You have to think about the dissolvement of your personal nondual me into the total potential. I would be much more happy if you say that you simply don’t believe there could be any gradient, that it must be a binary transition, rather than trying to convince us that you’re already exploring this gradient in a more integrated way. Please understand the if such gradient exists, it is above the individual nondual self even by your own criteria. To make it really explicit, consider it as the dissolution of the nondual individuated space, which can have its associations with interest groups and so on. Please think about that which you presently place infinitely far away in the future, when you may have had enough of exploring the nondual individuated perspectives and are ready to dissolve into the full potential. Consider that this dissolution would add also the 'horizontal' oneness.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:18 pm What do you think about the possibility that this transition is not binary but a whole mystery of the Cosmos lies within the green line, which turns out to be Divine hierarchical gradient?

Please don’t hastily say that you agree and you have always been talking about that same thing because it is not so. You have to think about the dissolvement of your personal nondual me into the total potential. I would be much more happy if you say that you simply don’t believe there could be any gradient, that it must be a binary transition, rather than trying to convince us that you’re already exploring this gradient in a more integrated way. Please understand the if such gradient exists, it is above the individual nondual self even by your own criteria. To make it really explicit, consider it as the dissolution of the nondual individuated space, which can have its associations with interest groups and so on. Please think about that which you presently place infinitely far away in the future, when you may have had enough of exploring the nondual individuated perspectives and are ready to dissolve into the full potential. Consider that this dissolution would add also the 'horizontal' oneness.

The perspective you described it close to how I see it. I said long ago that there are two dimensions, in your current picture/model they are vertical/nondual/flat, and horizontal/diversified/structured. The horizontal dimension is what Consciousness does, the vertical is what Consciousness is, and there should be harmony between them with no contradiction. It's unity and diversity simultaneously. Important point is that the individuated perspectives are not separate "entities", but semi-autonomous activities of the same conscious potential, so, there is a difference between diversity and duality which is important to understand.

I suggested the "dissolution" back to the undifferentiated potential only as a possibility, but never suggested that it is indeed a destination/telos of the spiritual evolution of the Cosmos. On the contrary, IMO, the telos of the Cosmos is expansion/integration of individuated activities both into the nondual dimension and simultaneously in the structured/diversified direction. And so, the gradient is directing the flow towards both directions, there is no contradiction between them.

Now, here we've been discussing the subject from metaphysical perspective, and I believe we agree (yes? no?). The key is to turn it outside in and make it an inner spiritual experience - again both integration into structures in the dimension of diversity and integration with the nondual nature of reality in the nondual dimension.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:54 am Aren't you forgetting about your interest in warning Anthroposophists that they are likely following evil astral beings of the false light path? I wonder how that squares with your interest in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices...

Anthroposophical practices on developing higher cognition are very useful, as well as reaching to and communicating with the higher-level beings. However, there are higher-level beings of nondual realms, and the ones of dualistic realms holding on to and promoting their outdated dualistic gradient that became anti-evolutionary. The key is applying spiritual discernment to decipher whether we are communicating with and moving along the gradient of beings of dualistic or nondual realms.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:14)
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)
"I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me" (John 14:30)

So, I am all for adopting Anthroposophy as a useful living and developing teaching and spiritual practice with a possibility of its further extension and development. But I do not support turning into a Scientology-like sect that incudes sectarian and dictatorial tactics of the leaders that you employ on this forum. And it will not work anyway, which is already obvious from seeing how few active members you have vs. how many efforts you put into building it. It will not work because understanding Steiner's teachings require high level of intelligence, but intelligent people are usually not so easy to turn into submissive members of totalitarian sect (unless they have unresolved psychological issues).

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:22 pm The perspective you described it close to how I see it. I said long ago that there are two dimensions, in your current picture/model they are vertical/nondual/flat, and horizontal/diversified/structured. The horizontal dimension is what Consciousness does, the vertical is what Consciousness is, and there should be harmony between them with no contradiction. It's unity and diversity simultaneously. Important point is that the individuated perspectives are not separate "entities", but semi-autonomous activities of the same conscious potential, so, there is a difference between diversity and duality which is important to understand.

I suggested the "dissolution" back to the undifferentiated potential only as a possibility, but never suggested that it is indeed a destination/telos of the spiritual evolution of the Cosmos. On the contrary, IMO, the telos of the Cosmos is expansion/integration of individuated activities both into the nondual dimension and simultaneously in the structured/diversified direction. And so, the gradient is directing the flow towards both directions, there is no contradiction between them.

Now, here we've been discussing the subject from metaphysical perspective, and I believe we agree (yes? no?). The key is to turn it outside in and make it an inner spiritual experience - again both integration into structures in the dimension of diversity and integration with the nondual nature of reality in the nondual dimension.

OK, then can you elaborate on what you mean by 'integration of individuated activities into the nondual dimension'? So far what you have implied with 'integration' has been more like liberation of the individual perspective (being absolutely free to follow its Divine creative impulses). In other words, it's integration insofar that there's inner integration with the Potential that expresses through the individual perspective. It's not about integration with other perspectives (which would mean integration of interest groups so to speak).

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:30 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:54 am Aren't you forgetting about your interest in warning Anthroposophists that they are likely following evil astral beings of the false light path? I wonder how that squares with your interest in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices...

Anthroposophical practices on developing higher cognition are very useful, as well as reaching to and communicating with the higher-level beings. However, there are higher-level beings of nondual realms, and the ones of dualistic realms holding on to and promoting their outdated dualistic gradient that became anti-evolutionary. The key is applying spiritual discernment to decipher whether we are communicating with and moving along the gradient of beings of dualistic or nondual realms.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:14)
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)
"I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me" (John 14:30)

So, I am all for adopting Anthroposophy as a useful living and developing teaching and spiritual practice with a possibility of its further extension and development. But I do not support turning into a Scientology-like sect that incudes sectarian and dictatorial tactics of the leaders that you employ on this forum.

I just want to be clear for others - there is no developing higher cognition which also doesn't lead to the Truth of a hierarchical gradient of objective spiritual structure - spiritual beings - which we consciously pass through beyond the threshold of death, and which we call the "subconscious" (or supra-conscious) of incarnate existence. This 'supra-conscious' sphere seeds the curvatures of potential for our conscious life experience during incarnation. That rhythmic seeding is carried out precisely for our gradual moral perfection and integration with the Divine Self, so that creative evolution can continue for lower life waves through our sacrifices. Without understanding this incarnational rhythm to some extent, we can hardly make sense of any phenomena of experience, from our daily occurrences to Earthly and Cosmic periods of evolution.

I think a huge factor in maintaining the 'separate me' existence is the natural antipathy of modern souls for selfless service aimed towards an objective hierarchical structure existing above/behind one's current perspective. The sympathy for 'complete soul freedom now' is what maintains the 'separate me' existence, since it treats our intuitive stream of becoming as something which can progress almost completely independently of the intuitive becoming of all other Earthly souls and the collective souls along the vertical gradient. With living thinking, we can become conscious of this objective gradient and thereby dispel the illusion of independent soul-evolution (the opposite of "all for one, one for all; united we stand, divided we fall"), which alone maintains factions, tribes, sects, etc. We can stop abstractly complaining about 'sects' and actually do something concrete to harmonize them.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:21 pm OK, then can you elaborate on what you mean by 'integration of individuated activities into the nondual dimension'? So far what you have implied with 'integration' has been more like liberation of the individual perspective (being absolutely free to follow its Divine creative impulses). In other words, it's integration insofar that there's inner integration with the Potential that expresses through the individual perspective. It's not about integration with other perspectives (which would mean integration of interest groups so to speak).

'Integration of individuated activities into the nondual dimension is more like liberation of the individual perspective" from the dualistic perception of reality (including the "separate me", "separate other beings" etc ) that is incoherent with the actual Reality of the World, and experientialy perceiving the World as a diversity of spiritual activities of One Subjectivity. Such liberation removes the "egoic-bubble" barrier that prevents the Divine creative impulses to freely unfold. But simultaneously with that, there is, as you said, "integration with other perspectives (which would mean integration of interest groups so to speak)", and these two integrations do not contradict each other, but enhance each other, unless the interest group is following the dualistic anti-evolutionary curvature (in which case these two streams of integrations will be in contradiction, because the dualistic evolutionary curvature impedes the nondual integration). So, the key is applying the spiritual discernment and deciphering which interest group and which structural curvature you are integrating with - the one in harmony with nondual curvature, or the one opposing it.