Philosophical Speculations

Ben Iscatus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:50 am

what will emerge? Nothing 'superior' but rather integral.

Integral theory? Fine, so long as the Ken Wilber brigade don't take over the forum!

Ken Wilber heading up a cult too?! It's as if that's becoming the default dismissive stance. Seems cults are lurking everywhere in the minds of some, like the diabolical control-freak cabal of Illuminati freemason overlords the likes of David Icke are ranting on about, only maybe some are the anti-reptilians

Speaking of KW, to spin off yet again, you may find this article entertaining ... The Rise and Fall of Ken Wilber

Yeah, people need to realize that there are actual real things called 'cults' and they are very different even from very unhealthy loosely knit communities. People love power words that do all the work for them.

One way you know you are dealing with a cult is you can point to at least a handful of people who are currently having their lives systematically torn apart by the person or people in charge. Not indirectly and accidently, but with very clear purposes.

Finding Ken Wilber fans who are annoying doesn't mean you've located a cult. Same with Anthroposophists.

findingblanks wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:42 pm Yeah, people need to realize that there are actual real things called 'cults' and they are very different even from very unhealthy loosely knit communities. People love power words that do all the work for them.

One way you know you are dealing with a cult is you can point to at least a handful of people who are currently having their lives systematically torn apart by the person or people in charge. Not indirectly and accidently, but with very clear purposes.

Finding Ken Wilber fans who are annoying doesn't mean you've located a cult. Same with Anthroposophists.

Whoa, just a minute. The word "cult" carries a lot of cultural baggage. In Brazil, where I lived for 15 years, the term "cult" simply means the organized followers of a doctrine associated with a personality such as, "the cult of Mary" and it does not have the Jim Jones connotation often implied in the U.S. Indeed, it can be understood quite positively.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:08 pm Whoa, just a minute. The word "cult" carries a lot of cultural baggage. In Brazil, where I lived for 15 years, the term "cult" simply means the organized followers of a doctrine associated with personality such as, "the cult of Mary" and it does not have the Jim Jones connotation often implied in the U.S. Indeed, it can be understood quite positively.

Intriguing point Lou. Indeed, the term 'cult' and any membership therein, is now pretty much considered pejorative, clearly because the ones that turn out to have destructive, injurious and/or traumatic consequences are bound get the attention of the media, and thus masses of media consumers. I suppose it could be said that I belong to the cult of Aurora and in need of a cure ...

Lou, that is a great point! Unfortunately, for much of the western world (not all!), 'cult' has a very specific meaning is far gone from the beautiful kinds of cults that originally were allowed to have that name.

It's a bit like the Nazi swastika symbol, unfortunately.

One of the greatest ironies is that it is Adi Da Samraj who has spoken and written most profoundly on the nature of the meaning of 'cult' and how it has changed over the years.

This isn't the best example of what I mean, but I think you'll find some gems in here, Lou (along with all the other stuff that comes with Babba Free John).

findingblanks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:20 am Lou, that is a great point! Unfortunately, for much of the western world (not all!), 'cult' has a very specific meaning is far gone from the beautiful kinds of cults that originally were allowed to have that name.

It's a bit like the Nazi swastika symbol, unfortunately.

One of the greatest ironies is that it is Adi Da Samraj who has spoken and written most profoundly on the nature of the meaning of 'cult' and how it has changed over the years.

This isn't the best example of what I mean, but I think you'll find some gems in here, Lou (along with all the other stuff that comes with Babba Free John).

Yup! I paid attention to early Free John. Not much later on. A lasting term that I received from him is the "extraordinary ordinary" which exists in all of us.

Lou, same with me. I find his teachings fascinating for the various levels they operate on, which includes the deep contradictions between what he said and how he lived. Humans are complex! Cheers.

findingblanks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:02 pm Lou, same with me. I find his teachings fascinating for the various levels they operate on, which includes the deep contradictions between what he said and how he lived. Humans are complex! Cheers.

To me it's a good evidence that an ability to speak spiritual-sounding mumbo-jumbo has nothing to do with actual spiritual maturity. And there are numerous other similar examples among well known "spiritual teachers".

To me it's a good evidence that an ability to speak spiritual-sounding mumbo-jumbo has nothing to do with actual spiritual maturity. And there are numerous other similar examples among well known "spiritual teachers".

Yes, very important, also in the sense that "actions speak louder than words". You can think what you like, but if what you do does not match it, the thinking is shallow or merely theoretical. Practice always trumps theory, as you said before in your discussion of engineering. I'd suggest that nothing could be more important than this. Climate change is a key example. Governments think they know what they need to do to combat it, but don't actually do it.

Ben Iscatus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:46 pm

To me it's a good evidence that an ability to speak spiritual-sounding mumbo-jumbo has nothing to do with actual spiritual maturity. And there are numerous other similar examples among well known "spiritual teachers".

Yes, very important, also in the sense that "actions speak louder than words". You can think what you like, but if what you do does not match it, the thinking is shallow or merely theoretical. Practice always trumps theory, as you said before in your discussion of engineering. I'd suggest that nothing could be more important than this. Climate change is a key example. Governments think they know what they need to do to combat it, but don't actually do it.

Indeed, very important observations. And it is pretty easy to see here where the shallow and merely theoretical posts come from, as opposed to the ones deep (consisting in more than a few sentences and/or video links) and concrete to our experience. The ones which invite us to consider confronting our mental habits and therefore adjusting our feelings, desires, and actions in relation to the world of objects and people we confront each day, through our Thinking, and the ones which invite us to endlessly rearrange abstract concepts like "MAL" and "alter" and "dissociation" and combine them in ways which are mathematically bound to be 100% repetitive, with absolutely zero practical significance to our thinking or our lives. That's all I wanted to add to these very important observations.