Philosophical Speculations

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:09 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:56 pm Thanks for the suggestion, but no, we wouldn't. What you call "promoting" and "success", I call outward-facing materialistic measure of self-worth, mostly rooted in a need for attention, popularity, status, etc. during incarnate life. It sacrifices genuine spiritual seeking of the Kingdom, which always leads into unfamiliar and uncomfortable territory, for the convenient and prideful ways of the world. What you call "sectarian", I call the rigorous and logical seeking of spiritual Truth, even if it leads to avenues which are in opposition to personalized interests, preferences and feelings, which it no doubt will lead, since the genuine spiritual goes beyond the personal sphere to the interrelated, interdependent Earthly and Cosmic spheres. Like I already said, we can preach about compassion, equality, integration, abstractly all day, or complain abstractly about sectarian, dictatorial, etc., pretending we have done our duty while we maintain the 'separate me' in our personal preferences and theories projected onto the higher worlds, or we can make the personal sacrifices necessary to actually bring about those ideals through our creative transformation and evolution on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Once we develop our living consciousness of life across the threshold of sleep-death, we won't force our interests and goals to remain constrained to those of popular culture and intellectual academia, but will know that there is a higher Wisdom at work through our humble, unassuming actions on places such as this forum, which takes the long view of what's best for the Cosmic organism as a whole, rather than our splintered 'nondual' interest group.

Fine, you made your choice, but count me out, I do not support totalitarian/sectarian ways of spiritual development. Integrating with higher-order nondual beings is not submission to them and their discipline, but it is free collaboration assuming appropriate responsibilities and roles. Self-discipline and self-sacrifice come from spiritual practice and understanding that such sacrifice of anti-evolutionary elements of soul's structures is necessary for the successful evolution of the soul on individual and collective levels, but this self-sacrifice is not of submissive or hierarchically enforced nature, it is free and conscious undertaking of responsibility. It is like a volunteering work that we do here in human domain. If you would actually know these nondual beings by having spiritual contact with them, you would also know their delicate and non-dominating character. They are always straight and truth-telling, but never in a dominating way, just like Jesus was treating people. On the opposite, the hierarchies of dualistic beings on all levels are typically of dominating, disciplinarian, totalitarian, sectarian or a military-kind structure intolerant to any noncompliance. So, if we see such hierarchical structure, whether in the human or in discarnate realms, it is a sure sign that it belongs to the dualistic realm, even though they may claim and present themselves as "nondual". There are and have been in fact many quasi-spiritual totalitarian sects claiming themselves as "nondual", such as Osho, Adida, Nome and so on.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)

And how do we know if the spirits are of God? Here is the sure sign:

Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matthew 11:29)

It is so stunningly clear that you harbor certain antipathies, resentments, etc. rooted in your Earthly experiences of totalitarian political regimes, which is obviously understandable. Yet, what is not understandable for any genuine spiritual seeking, is the fact that you see no problem wrapping these personalized tendencies up in conspiracy theories and projecting them all throughout the Cosmic landscape, and then basing your entire spiritual path and recommendation to others on that projection. The way to protect against this personalized projective tendency is through rigorous logical reasoning. Our logical thinking does not care about the personal state of our being at any given time - if we are sad, happy, sick, healthy, feeling antipathetic or sympathetic to this or that quality, etc., the logical threads remain the same. When our normal logical thinking is also infected with these personal tendencies, steering it subconsciously, as they generally are, the only way forward to the archetypal realm of the Logos is through living self-knowledge.

Indeed, we can adopt a meek and humble disposition towards spiritual reality. We can avoid assuming we already know the most important aspects of every single topic that others bring to our attention. Everything unfamiliar doesn't need to be shunned and marginalized by our demonizing labels. Our opinions, speculations, and theories don't need to be projected across the archetypal realms. We don't need to convince ourselves that we are being victimized or enslaved by the simple act of people engaging in logical discussions and offering suggestions for inner work. Being meek and humble in heart is unassuming, sticking to the givens of phenomenal experience, directing loving attention to the World Phenomena, reasoning logically without stopping at desired conclusions. It is sacrificing the desire for 'complete personal freedom now' so the body and bride of Christ can fulfill their destiny of freedom as a whole, through our patient and effortful work. The redemptive responsibility should be undertaken freely and voluntarily, but the hedonistic desire to abandon Earth evolution and traverse the Cosmic realms like a candy shop should not be confused for responsibility. We can never be free if we are enslaved to subconscious soul-tendencies which we have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant of.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:23 pm It is so stunningly clear that you harbor certain antipathies, resentments, etc. rooted in your Earthly experiences of totalitarian political regimes, which is obviously understandable. Yet, what is not understandable for any genuine spiritual seeking, is the fact that you see no problem wrapping these personalized tendencies up in conspiracy theories and projecting them all throughout the Cosmic landscape, and then basing your entire spiritual path and recommendation to others on that projection. The way to protect against this personalized projective tendency is through rigorous logical reasoning. Our logical thinking does not care about the personal state of our being at any given time - if we are sad, happy, sick, healthy, feeling antipathetic or sympathetic to this or that quality, etc., the logical threads remain the same. When our normal logical thinking is also infected with these personal tendencies, steering it subconsciously, as they generally are, the only way forward to the archetypal realm of the Logos is through living self-knowledge.

Indeed, we can adopt a meek and humble disposition towards spiritual reality. We can avoid assuming we already know the most important aspects of every single topic that others bring to our attention. Everything unfamiliar doesn't need to be shunned and marginalized by our demonizing labels. Our opinions, speculations, and theories don't need to be projected across the archetypal realms. We don't need to convince ourselves that we are being victimized or enslaved by the simple act of people engaging in logical discussions and offering suggestions for inner work. Being meek and humble in heart is unassuming, sticking to the givens of phenomenal experience, directing loving attention to the World Phenomena, reasoning logically without stopping at desired conclusions. It is sacrificing the desire for 'complete personal freedom now' so the body and bride of Christ can fulfill their destiny of freedom as a whole, through our patient and effortful work. The redemptive responsibility should be undertaken freely and voluntarily, but the hedonistic desire to abandon Earth evolution and traverse the Cosmic realms like a candy shop should not be confused for responsibility. We can never be free if we are enslaved to subconscious soul-tendencies which we have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant of.

See, you are claiming to be "unassuming" but act in a opposite way and assume that my knowledge about discarnate dualistic hierarchies are based on personalized antipathies and not on genuine spiritual experiences. And do you think the Apostles and Jesus were telling us a "conspiracy theory" based on their fears and antipathies and not on their genuine spiritual experiences?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:14)
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)
"I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me" (John 14:30)

And I said that hundred times already, but you again misinterpret my words upside down in your usual way: I never said that reincarnating in different realms is based on hedonistic preference, but only on the basis of the efficiency of the evolutionary process from both personal and collective perspective for the good of all. In a way, it is similar to saving yourself from sinking ship and getting on a boat so that you can help saving other people on the ship.

When you communicate with people that are not fully complying with your views, you usually assume that they are either thinking abstractly, or in "Kantian split" way, or from a perspective of their personal egoic preferences, and to support that, you also usually twist and misinterpret what they say and then turn to personal blames. A possibility that they may speak from their genuine spiritual experiences does not even occur to you. That is a very arrogant position and the one that is usually employed by totalitarian sect leaders (believe me, I know that from experience). I have seen it many times in the sects: the assumption that all members are little egos and the sect leader is already ego-transcended "saint", so, whenever a member even attempts to question the leader, the leader usually says that it is the member's "ego" with its egoic bias and ignorance that is speaking here. This is by the way one of the reasons most people left the forum and almost noone subscribed to follow you, so basically you are shooting yourself in the foot, and your much work and effort in writhing these tens of forum pages are futile. You are also doing a disservice to Steiner's work, because you divert people from Anthroposophy by your behavior. People think: "if this is who people become and how they behave after studying and practicing Anthroposophy, then there must be something wrong with these weird practices and we do not want to become like that". But I see that you are unfortunately not willing to work on yourself and change your position, and prefer to keep it in your blind spot.

But If you want to become a sect leader, pickup some dumb quasi-spiritual teaching like Scientology and you will find much more people following iyou. Anthroposophy is for intelligent people, and intelligent people are not so easy to manipulate.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:05 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:31 am
So in this case, if the GPT's version is a better handle for you, a better stimulus, to help you take within yourself the concrete action (thinking gesture) that will bring the meaning to life, that's great!

The GPT version did remove most of the pretentiousness and confusoin in the original text. GPT's version more clearly revealed a belief system I am not interested in adding to my life.

Ok, so it's great that the GPT has helped you isolate the meaning.


Then we need to distinguish. When you speak of pretentiousness, this is not related to the meaning of the text. It's more a feeling, or an impression you are getting, parallel to the meaning, from the original text.
This is like an hypothesis you make on Ashvin's "soul quality" as he was writing the text. We can make such hypotheses, but they are very much separate from the meaning. It's a kind of diversion, because it has no relevance to the meaning, whether it's true or false that Ashvin was being in a mood of pretentiousness when writing the text.
I personally think he was not, but the important point is, no matter if it's true or not, we shouldn't let this feeling mix up with our act of understanding the meaning. It's not helpful to open the door to feelings in such a way, when our goal is to understand.


Lastly you say: based on the meaning I am making, I am not interested in bringing something of that kind into my life. And I understand that. If I took it as a "belief system" I would respond exactly like you, and I wouldn't be interested in bringing it into my life either. But the thing is just that: is it really a belief system?
The claim is that it looks like a belief system from the outside, until one has really engaged with the exercises.
And the difficulty is just that: one needs to make the experience of it, through some work, to realize that it's not a belief system, but an experienceable reality.
But of course if we don't like this perspective, because we mix up all sorts of feeling-based judgments with it, it's very easy to reject it: it's enough to say that it's a belief system, and that it cannot be proved here and now with concepts.
But this is precisely the point
What's good with this understanding, is that it doesn't go via concepts that can be passed on in words on a philosophy forum. That's where the real hardship is!


Hence the question becomes: if we imagine (only for the sake of this question) that it's not a belief system, but a reality, would you be interested? Not interested? Why?

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:24 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:23 pm It is so stunningly clear that you harbor certain antipathies, resentments, etc. rooted in your Earthly experiences of totalitarian political regimes, which is obviously understandable. Yet, what is not understandable for any genuine spiritual seeking, is the fact that you see no problem wrapping these personalized tendencies up in conspiracy theories and projecting them all throughout the Cosmic landscape, and then basing your entire spiritual path and recommendation to others on that projection. The way to protect against this personalized projective tendency is through rigorous logical reasoning. Our logical thinking does not care about the personal state of our being at any given time - if we are sad, happy, sick, healthy, feeling antipathetic or sympathetic to this or that quality, etc., the logical threads remain the same. When our normal logical thinking is also infected with these personal tendencies, steering it subconsciously, as they generally are, the only way forward to the archetypal realm of the Logos is through living self-knowledge.

Indeed, we can adopt a meek and humble disposition towards spiritual reality. We can avoid assuming we already know the most important aspects of every single topic that others bring to our attention. Everything unfamiliar doesn't need to be shunned and marginalized by our demonizing labels. Our opinions, speculations, and theories don't need to be projected across the archetypal realms. We don't need to convince ourselves that we are being victimized or enslaved by the simple act of people engaging in logical discussions and offering suggestions for inner work. Being meek and humble in heart is unassuming, sticking to the givens of phenomenal experience, directing loving attention to the World Phenomena, reasoning logically without stopping at desired conclusions. It is sacrificing the desire for 'complete personal freedom now' so the body and bride of Christ can fulfill their destiny of freedom as a whole, through our patient and effortful work. The redemptive responsibility should be undertaken freely and voluntarily, but the hedonistic desire to abandon Earth evolution and traverse the Cosmic realms like a candy shop should not be confused for responsibility. We can never be free if we are enslaved to subconscious soul-tendencies which we have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant of.

See, you are claiming to be "unassuming" but act in a opposite way and assume that my knowledge about discarnate dualistic hierarchies are based on personalized antipathies and not on genuine spiritual experiences. And do you think the Apostles and Jesus were telling us a "conspiracy theory" based on their fears and antipathies and not on their genuine spiritual experiences?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:14)
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)
"I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me" (John 14:30)

And I said that hundred times already, but you again misinterpret my words upside down in your usual way: I never said that reincarnating in different realms is based on hedonistic preference, but only on the basis of the efficiency of the evolutionary process from both personal and collective perspective for the good of all. In a way, it is similar to saving yourself from sinking ship and getting on a boat so that you can help saving other people on the ship.

When you communicate with people that are not fully complying with your views, you usually assume that they are either thinking abstractly, or in "Kantian split" way, or from a perspective of their personal egoic preferences, and to support that, you also usually twist and misinterpret what they say and then turn to personal blames. A possibility that they may speak from their genuine spiritual experiences does not even occur to you. That is a very arrogant position and the one that is usually employed by totalitarian sect leaders (believe me, I know that from experience). I have seen it many times in the sects: the assumption that all members are little egos and the sect leader is already ego-transcended "saint", so, whenever a member even attempts to question the leader, the leader usually says that it is the member's "ego" with its egoic bias and ignorance that is speaking here. This is by the way one of the reasons most people left the forum and almost noone subscribed to follow you, so basically you are shooting yourself in the foot, and your much work and effort in writhing these tens of forum pages are futile. You are also doing a disservice to Steiner's work, because you divert people from Anthroposophy by your behavior. People think: "if this is who people become and how they behave after studying and practicing Anthroposophy, then there must be something wrong with these weird practices and we do not want to become like that". But I see that you are unfortunately not willing to work on yourself and change your position, and prefer to keep it in your blind spot.

But If you want to become a sect leader, pickup some dumb quasi-spiritual teaching like Scientology and you will find much more people following iyou. Anthroposophy is for intelligent people, and intelligent people are not so easy to manipulate.

Eugene, I never claimed they weren't based on spiritual experiences. In fact, the only way I can imagine your current views could be so immune to the logical discourse here is if they are rooted in such experiences. What you aren't realizing is that our personal soul-life can easily be projected into our spiritual experiences if we don't pursue a rigorous training of our logical thinking faculty and purifying of our will, of the sort provided through Anthroposophy and other esoteric spiritual streams. But these are exactly the methods you find too 'hierarchical' for your taste and which you admittedly adapt to your own preferences.

Cleric wrote:This is the whole reason why in our age, meditation that seeks the true Unity of existence can only find it by making the paths straight for the subtler being that speaks through the intellectual mask. We should clearly feel how this presents an inner conflict. For example, for someone with an ‘all inclusive’ philosophy, the only way forward seems to be expansion towards the richness of spiritual phenomena. In meditation we leak ourselves over the totality of our soul contents and imagine that we have sacrificed our ego, that we’re now one with the Cosmic flow (the blue arrow expanding and rubbing against the wavy interior).
...
Now the greatest obstacle here is that we are used to feel as the top authority of our inner world. Thus we simply don’t give up our blue form that easily. Or if we do give it up, we do so by leaking it over our soul phenomena.

The Kantian splits, dualities, discontinuities, etc. are brought out through extensive questioning and discourse with you. They are not assumptions or twistings of your words. If it happened once or twice in a comment here or there, then maybe, but it literally crops up in every other comment you post.

And, please, there's no need to insult our intelligence by telling us that you are more familiar with or understand Anthroposophy better than we do. I only need reference #4 of your OP, which shows you are misunderstanding "imaginative cognition". Or the time you quoted Steiner on intuition, because it appeared to support your 'nondual' method, and when I asked about your thoughts on the whole lecture from which the quote was taken, you admitted that you had not read it. If people cannot put aside their personal reactions to my comments long enough to logically reason through the substance of what is being written or the profound importance of research such as we find in spiritual science, then the latter is really not for them. They need to work greatly on their thinking faculty and willpower before approaching the subject matter again.

I'm sorry to call you out on these things, but after a while it becomes the only way to direct attention in a certain inward direction. Like I said before, none of this criticism personal to you. Don't think that I feel to have overcome my own egoic tendencies, personal preferences and interests, etc. In fact, I am sure that some part of my continued discourse with you is rooted in such selfish tendencies. But I try to keep track of these things and make them more conscious. I never forget that they exist and are conditioning my first-person perspective, no matter what spiritual experiences or insights I have had. On this forum, we really circle around the most basic a,b,c of cognitive phenomenology and aspects of higher worlds, which is why it might seem we are very confident in our knowledge. But if we ever progressed to discussion of d, e, and f, then it would become more clear how unassuming we are about the complexities of spiritual reality and life beyond the threshold of death.

The spiritual scientific research on those complexities is all out in the open, free for anyone to evaluate, reason through, and verify for themselves. It is not hidden in secret nondual teachings, which can't be mentioned or disclosed, but are nevertheless relied upon to form absolute conclusions about evil 'dualistic hierarchies' and 'nondual realms' which we can escape to before integrating the nested Earthly collectives. You say it is all based on experience but can't speak of the training you went through to enter the higher worlds and perform the rigorous research needed to work all these conclusions out. So we should just take it on faith and prepare for life after death accordingly? If anything is sectarian and cultish, it is that. You will say, 'no everyone has the option to stay in the dualistic sphere and continue their evolution in the diseased world of contagions, and eventually they will make it to the pure abodes', but obviously you look down upon this option and want people to avoid it. Otherwise you never would have started the Demiurge thread.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:08 pm You say it is all based on experience but can't speak of the training you went through to enter the higher worlds and perform the rigorous research needed to work all these conclusions out. So we should just take it on faith and prepare for life after death accordingly? If anything is sectarian and cultish, it is that. You will say, 'no everyone has the option to stay in the dualistic sphere and continue their evolution in the diseased world of contagions, and eventually they will make it to the pure abodes', but obviously you look down upon this option and want people to avoid it. Otherwise you never would have started the Demiurge thread.

I wrote pages and pages on describing in minute practical steps on how to approach the nondual path, including the meditation in this thread, which were all ignored. Those "secret" teachings are about the states that are so far from the stages we are now (me included) that they are completely irrelevant to our current condition and so we do not have any experiential references for them and inevitably will misunderstand them. I already explained that.

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:51 pm
Hence the question becomes: if we imagine (only for the sake of this question) that it's not a belief system, but a reality, would you be interested? Not interested? Why?

The same could be asked of Materialism - would I be interested in Materialism if Materialism were reality? Actually, as a belief system, I'd prefer Materialism\Physicalism over the 'spiritual materialism' presented here. Re Materialism, all I have to believe in and accept is some squirrley particles\fields\probability waves. Re the philosophy presented here, I have to believe in immortal Ideas, a heirarchy of spiritual beings, lost civilization of Atlantis, and feelings and moods baked into reality.
Now, if I did experience an immortal Idea or spiritual being (as with some exercise) , I'd be inclined to think of this experience as an artifact of the body\mind. We all have stress, impuities in our body\mind, and as we nudge and purify our body\mind, it's logical to assume images, impressions and dreams will be produced - not based in reality but purification. Just because I experience a thought\dream doesn't mean that impression is 'reality'.
But the real reason I stay away is the esoteria involved - - - the mystical and secret language and imagery lends itself to a tier of High Priests who can give nods of approval - and dispense disapproval if one does not acknowledge their self-certainty.
Rolling the above into a single statement - I think the 'cost of entry' of this philosophy is too high - it doesn't match with what I think is a reality that is quite simple . . . simple even a child can understand.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:08 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:51 pm
Hence the question becomes: if we imagine (only for the sake of this question) that it's not a belief system, but a reality, would you be interested? Not interested? Why?

The same could be asked of Materialism - would I be interested in Materialism if Materialism were reality? Actually, as a belief system, I'd prefer Materialism\Physicalism over the 'spiritual materialism' presented here. Re Materialism, all I have to believe in and accept is some squirrley particles\fields\probability waves. Re the philosophy presented here, I have to believe in immortal Ideas, a heirarchy of spiritual beings, lost civilization of Atlantis, and feelings and moods baked into reality.
Now, if I did experience an immortal Idea or spiritual being (as with some exercise) , I'd be inclined to think of this experience as an artifact of the body\mind. We all have stress, impuities in our body\mind, and as we nudge and purify our body\mind, it's logical to assume images, impressions and dreams will be produced - not based in reality but purification. Just because I experience a thought\dream doesn't mean that impression is 'reality'.
But the real reason I stay away is the esoteria involved - - - the mystical and secret language and imagery lends itself to a tier of High Priests who can give nods of approval - and dispense disapproval if one does not acknowledge their self-certainty.
Rolling the above into a single statement - I think the 'cost of entry' of this philosophy is too high - it doesn't match with what I think is a reality that is quite simple . . . simple even a child can understand.

So you mean that one can never know for sure, and the best we can do is to choose to believe in this or that worldview based on what we feel most inclined to?

And regarding your reasons not to be interested in living thinking, I very well understand the first you give, that the cost of entry is too high. It is quite high indeed. I think it's an understandable reason.

But the second reason, the "real reason", well, I'm not getting that one, Lorenzo. Do you mean on this forum? I never thought of Cleric and Ashvin as nodding High Priests, I might be wrong Not even Steiner, Klocek and the other authors we are often referred to seem to have that High Priest style and aplomb, I would say
Who are these figures you are thinking of?

lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:08 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:51 pm
Hence the question becomes: if we imagine (only for the sake of this question) that it's not a belief system, but a reality, would you be interested? Not interested? Why?

The same could be asked of Materialism - would I be interested in Materialism if Materialism were reality? Actually, as a belief system, I'd prefer Materialism\Physicalism over the 'spiritual materialism' presented here. Re Materialism, all I have to believe in and accept is some squirrley particles\fields\probability waves. Re the philosophy presented here, I have to believe in immortal Ideas, a heirarchy of spiritual beings, lost civilization of Atlantis, and feelings and moods baked into reality.
Now, if I did experience an immortal Idea or spiritual being (as with some exercise) , I'd be inclined to think of this experience as an artifact of the body\mind. We all have stress, impuities in our body\mind, and as we nudge and purify our body\mind, it's logical to assume images, impressions and dreams will be produced - not based in reality but purification. Just because I experience a thought\dream doesn't mean that impression is 'reality'.
But the real reason I stay away is the esoteria involved - - - the mystical and secret language and imagery lends itself to a tier of High Priests who can give nods of approval - and dispense disapproval if one does not acknowledge their self-certainty.
Rolling the above into a single statement - I think the 'cost of entry' of this philosophy is too high - it doesn't match with what I think is a reality that is quite simple . . . simple even a child can understand.

How are you using the word "believe" here, Lorenzo? For ex., if someone showed with reasoned arguments, based in verifiable experience, that our inner life (spiritual activity) generally follows certain rhythmic patterns (like the perception-thinking hysteresis), would you say they are asking you to "believe in and accept" this fact?

We should notice how all the core principles of esoteric spirituality can be understood from such first-person inner phenomenology. Meanwhile, not a single axiom posed by materialism about abstract particles/fields/waves can be so understood, and even 21st century materialists are beginning to acknowledge that now. It all points to 'something else' which they are hopeful to unveil down the road somewhere. What the 'simple child' mystic hopes to unveil after death, the materialist hopes future generations will unveil in decades to come (although, one can argue, if they won't be around for the fruits of such efforts, why even bother?). The esoteric spiritualist simply says, because reality is unified, there is no reason why that 'something else' can't be known now (although it may require some effort, like any other skill we wish to develop). Everything else is the intellect making things overly complex for itself.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:08 pm The same could be asked of Materialism - would I be interested in Materialism if Materialism were reality? Actually, as a belief system, I'd prefer Materialism\Physicalism over the 'spiritual materialism' presented here. Re Materialism, all I have to believe in and accept is some squirrley particles\fields\probability waves. Re the philosophy presented here, I have to believe in immortal Ideas, a heirarchy of spiritual beings, lost civilization of Atlantis, and feelings and moods baked into reality.
Now, if I did experience an immortal Idea or spiritual being (as with some exercise) , I'd be inclined to think of this experience as an artifact of the body\mind. We all have stress, impuities in our body\mind, and as we nudge and purify our body\mind, it's logical to assume images, impressions and dreams will be produced - not based in reality but purification. Just because I experience a thought\dream doesn't mean that impression is 'reality'.
But the real reason I stay away is the esoteria involved - - - the mystical and secret language and imagery lends itself to a tier of High Priests who can give nods of approval - and dispense disapproval if one does not acknowledge their self-certainty.
Rolling the above into a single statement - I think the 'cost of entry' of this philosophy is too high - it doesn't match with what I think is a reality that is quite simple . . . simple even a child can understand.

I would suggest to label it as "spiritual structuralism" rather than "spiritual materialism". We know for a fact that there are structures in the world that we are experiencing. So, either way, materialism or idealism, both must necessarily take into consideration the structures, so they both must be "structural". In materialistic paradigm the structures are explained to be the outcome of the laws according to which the matter behaves. But in idealism, where would those structures come from? We know that they do not come from our own conscious activity, I do not remember creating the sun and the moon, so, who made them? Since in idealism the universe is only Consciousness acting through a variety of its individuated conscious activities, then there must be some other conscious activities that created the structures that we experience. Then the practical question is: can and should we enquire into these structure-creating conscious activities and into the structures that they create and the laws according to which the structures are created, and is it even possible? But I agree, there are two caveats that come with that approach:
- There is always a risk of confusing the results of your own conscious activity with the real phenomena of a larger-scale conscious activity.
- "High Priests" catch is also real and it is what indeed happened with all kinds of esoteric sects. If you noticed, it is exactly the issue I was addressing in my last few posts here. Fortunately, there is a way to avoid it and approach the spiritual reality in a healthy way without the mediation of High Priests.

But I hope you know the catch in materialism that BK explained quite well. From our direct first-person experience everything we ever know is only conscious experiences and nothing beyond this. In idealism we do not make any assumptions that anything exists that is by nature different from and beyond these conscious experiences. In materialism we introduce a completely abstract, experimentally ungrounded and in principle unverifiable idea that there is some kind of a "substance" of a nature completely experientially unknown to us, which we call "matter" and which we can never experience directly as it is by itself еркщгпр our first-person conscious experience. And, once you make that assumption of introducing the "matter" into the cognitive model of reality, you immediately face the "hard problem of consciousness". So, "the reality that is quite simple" is rather idealism as compared to materialism (since idealism does not carry that heavy baggage of ungrounded assumption of the existence of a "substance" of a nature different from our consciousness, plus the "hard problem"), so, this is why BK callы idealism the most "parsimonious" philosophy.

Another approach is structurally-agnostic idealism where, within the general idealistic paradigm, we acknowledge the existence of structures within the context of subjective experiences, but remain agnostic to their origin. I guess, anyone can take this position, but why not at least try to find out more about these structures and their origins if possible?

Stranger wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:28 pm - "High Priests" catch is also real and it is what indeed happened with all kinds of esoteric sects. If you noticed, it is exactly the issue I was addressing in my last few posts here. Fortunately, there is a way to avoid it and approach the spiritual reality in a healthy way without the mediation of High Priests.

Let's be clear - what is being called 'high priests' in this context, is disciplined spiritual training for clairvoyance. It is the freely undertaken honing of logical thinking faculties and willpower purified of personalized interests, i.e. gradual perfecting of ego-consciousness, for those who desire to cross the threshold into higher worlds. This is not necessary for having very real, very intimate, very powerful spiritual experiences. A person who wants to experience soaring in the atmosphere is free to go skydiving and will no doubt have a powerful experience when jumping from the plane without a pack. The well-prepared pack is necessary for discerning what those experiences mean for our daily lives here on Earth and what forces we are coming into contact with, which is something you also frequently warn about. Our contact with these forces can influence not only our lives here on Earth, but our journey across the threshold as well and therefore subsequent incarnations. So, in that sense, seeking the higher worlds unprepared, without maintain a solid connection to our ego-conscious activity at all times, is even more reckless than skydiving without a pack. The spiritual training is exactly the way to maintain the connection. This will require a certain sacrifice of immediate feelings of Oneness, yet in return there is even more powerful experience of participating in building the gradient between the Cosmic realms and the humble intellect, through which Cosmic intuitions can be crystallized for the sharing of knowledge and holistic human and Earthly evolution can progressively manifest the Divine through its rhythmic incarnations. If we only seek the higher worlds for our own benefit and 'liberation', then we will come into contact with exactly those forces that feed on our passions and egoism and reinforce them even more strongly.