Philosophical Speculations

Shu,

I liked or felt aligned with the vision but I'll wait for the arrival of my new ear buds to continue on with the audio exercise. Thanks as always for the seemingly synchronous videos. For now let me just say, as a non-meditator, I somehow grokked it.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:00 pm Cleric,

I suspect that the 'root' disagreement is that you may see development as a individual process, which would naturally align with a singular 'gate' whereas I see an "I-Thou" or "Me-to-We" or species-level step in which many gates opening for separate individuals may occur simultaneously.

Words are so multi-interpretation susceptible, I'm not completely sure if what I 'hear'-n-'see' going on (referencing the preceding con-verse-ation) is what's actually the 'case', but, in regards the 'issue' of whether you and Cleric are seeing-n-talking about the same thing and just conceptually 'framing' it 'differently' or that you two are actually 'seeing' and talking about something 'different', my basic 'sense' is that you (Lou) are 'resisting' 'seeing' (i.e truly acknowledging) what Cleric is pointing to and 'insisting' on (effectually) minimizing/dismissing the distinctions he makes by, among other things, pooh-pooh labeling them 'religious'.

In regards the Gautama/ancient Indian vs Jesus 'contro-verse-y' , my own 'view' is that the two 'sides' have very different conceptualizations/experiences/understandings stemming from one 'side' regarding and 'framing' one's 'soul' or 'self' itself as being impermanent because of it 'change'-ability, and 'ideal'-projecting it as ultimately 'dissolving' in/into union with Oneness. and the other (who/which my conceptualizations/experiences/understandings are more aligned with) that 'it' everlastingly branches/flowers/fructifies/n/seeds-offspring in ever-interactively-ongoing communion with said all-inclusive cap-S Self/Soul.

Based on that (as I have said, and therefore taken the likes of Maharshi and his 'devotees' 'to task' for, before), I reject what I 'see' as your ('pollyanna', IMO) difference-denying, Lou, and embrace and endorse the 'distinction' that (I think) Cleric is, with human-Spirit advancing purpose in mind, creatively attempting to make. Among other things, I think it is 'high' time that 'we' move 'forward' as a 'culture' in this regard.

my basic 'sense' is that you (Lou) are 'resisting' 'seeing' (i.e truly acknowledging) what Cleric is pointing to and 'insisting' on (effectually) minimizing/dismissing the distinctions he makes by, among other things, pooh-pooh labeling them 'religious'.

David, pleeeeze! I am religious. I do not "pooh-pooh labeling them as 'religious'."

I agree with the notion of an advancing expanding enhancing human Spirit endlessly running new experiments to see what works or fits best and see a multitude of religious and non-religious paths unfolding and enfolding in an ongoing process without a singular gate. I agree that

'high' time that 'we' move 'forward' as a 'culture' in this regard.

The Me-to-We challenge we face is Unity in Diversity.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:48 pm multitude of religious and non-religious paths unfolding and enfolding in an ongoing process without a singular gate.

OK. I would also agree to this if our Earth was simply a sandbox for experiencing diversity and returning to the whole after death. In this sense, different religions, cultures, etc. are like the spectrum of clothes color. It would be foolish if we try to force the whole Earth to wear green clothes, to go through the 'gate of green clothes'. From what I reckon you see religions in this way - these are different spiritual 'fashions', different colors, styles, etc. but after all it's all clothing - no one is better than the other. And this extends even further to stones, plants, animals, etc. - these are all the diverse clothes of the Spirit.

If I understand you position correctly, you suggest that Unity is achieved by understanding that the One Spirit is active within everything and then enjoy life in diversity. In this view the Earth is a gallery or a zoo, or a museum, where different life forms, cultures, traditions, etc. are placed and the rightful place of man is to appreciate this zoo and not try to modify anything. He enters through birth, lives in whatever form it happens to have landed and leaves it through death. If man evolves to respect the zoo cages and their inhabitants without trying to conquer them, Unity is achieved. Animals, cultures, religions, co-exists naturally in the zoo. And this is all there is to Life.

I might be projecting something on you again, but from all our talks, this is what I was able to make about your view

If I understand you position correctly, you suggest that Unity is achieved by understanding that the One Spirit is active within everything and then enjoy life in diversity. In this view the Earth is a gallery or a zoo, or a museum, where different life forms, cultures, traditions, etc. are placed and the rightful place of man is to appreciate this zoo and not try to modify anything. He enters through birth, lives in whatever form it happens to have landed and leaves it through death. If man evolves to respect the zoo cages and their inhabitants without trying to conquer them, Unity is achieved. Animals, cultures, religions, co-exists naturally in the zoo. And this is all there is to Life.

Not at all my position, not even vaguely close. Keeping it very simple and not having the energy for lengthy elaboration, I would boil it down to the earth being the garden where immanence and transcendence, body and soul, matter and spirit, saints and sinners meet to do the work of finding balance and integration amongst the multiplicity within God's Creation. I believe that Jesus needed the earth to manifest Christ Consciousness, that Gautama needed the earth to manifest Buddha Mind, etc and that our Sacred Purpose is to maintain the Garden where this work and play may be done.

Touch the Earth and Blessed Be. It is Lovely, Indeed.

BTW, David. I picked up heavily on the religious theme because Cleric, at the outset of this thread or in other threads, suggested that he was offering a storyline free of religion. I don't believe one can have a story that is not a religion, indeed all religions are based on stories because that's where humans find meaning and purpose. Just try to express any meaning or purpose without a story. You can describe a relationship with math, but meaning and purpose? Again, I like religion but understand that it has uses and abuses and thus accept an ongoing process of discovering and maintaining a delicate balance.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:59 pm BTW, David. I picked up heavily on the religious theme because Cleric, at the outset of this thread or in other threads, suggested that he was offering a storyline free of religion.

Well, many times I tried to explain what makes it different from religion but it seems you simply ignore that

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:59 pm I don't believe one can have a story that is not a religion

And this is also the cause that you ignore it. And also the reason you feel uneasy with the term 'higher' consciousness.

If you were open to that, you would be able to envision forms of beings way higher than us, for which our Cosmic environment is what our soul life is for us. These beings have a certain plan. The rhythms of their life determine the great cosmic cycles that we observe in their sensory shadows. From their point of view our time spiral is what a piece of art is for the artist. They are not locked into the same 'now' that we experience but they encompass way larger time periods as their 'now'. As a crude analogy it can be compared to the way the musical genius encompasses the whole symphony as something holistic and can then break it down into a time sequence.

Now the critical part is not if you believe but if you admit as a possibility that it's possible for man to rise in consciousness so that he can perceive something at the level where these beings unfold their activities. If you do admit that, it will also be quite logical that man can know something about the great Cosmic rhythms and the future they shape. These rhythms are not something abstract or mechanical, theorized by the intellect - it's the beings' living will imbued with idea, that we perceive at the higher stages of cognition. This is why it's possible to speak of meaning and purpose. This is not our purpose - its theirs, but they conduct it in such a way that they can create a world for other beings (like us) to experience their evolution of consciousness in time. From such knowledge we can either align with these rhythms and evolve with them - such that we can achieve the most fruitful and harmonious life experience - or we can play ignorant and continue to do whatever we want. If then wars, disease and planetary catastrophes issue, it's simply because we refuse to acknowledge that there's some time-structure bigger than us, that we should respect. If we don't, we simply bump into the invisible walls, break our heads and blame the communists, the capitalists, the materialists, the colonists, etc. The gods won't change their plans because of us - it is we that should adapt to theirs. If we understand the purpose that these beings invest in what they create we can also find purpose for ourselves. They don't tell us what our purpose should be - we are free. They only provide the environment and our own bodies (physical, etheric, astral) which are transforming in certain direction. They give them to us ready-made but it's their desire that we should continue to work on them on our own. In this way it's possible for us through the eons to reach levels of consciousness such as theirs and then we'll participate in the creation of worlds for other beings. This is the purpose that they envision and how they lay out the world for us. It is up to us to decide if we'll use the conditions in the most harmonious and fruitful way.

Now if everything above seems to you that it can never be anything more than a religious story - OK.
If you say that you don't believe it's possible for humans to know through direct experience such things, that's one thing and I'm OK with it.
It's just that I was not certain if it's the above or I was not doing a good job to explain my point

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:17 pm This is not our purpose - its theirs, but they conduct it in such a way that they can create a world for other beings (like us) to experience their evolution of consciousness in time. ... The gods won't change their plans because of us - it is we that should adapt to theirs. ... In this way it's possible for us through the eons to reach levels of consciousness such as theirs and then we'll participate in the creation of worlds for other beings. This is the purpose that they envision and how they lay out the world for us. It is up to us to decide if we'll use the conditions in the most harmonious and fruitful way.

If we are to give any credit to NDE or regression therapy accounts, they suggest that we actually ARE gods, but we incarnate into humans for certain purposes. So, while from the point of view of the progress of human civilization it appears that we are participants in such progress (and it is true in a way), we are in fact on the path of the individual soul development and growth along multiple incarnations (including incarnations in different realms and planets), as well as along the periods of life in discarnate forms. They also suggest that there is a hierarchy of conscious beings/souls beyond the material worlds, but essentially all those beings differ only in their level of maturity and development of their individual consciousness. Another info is that the material realm is actually the result of a collective creation of all participating souls and not just a single highest "God".

From that perspective, it's like in human world there are children and adults, governments and citizens, but essentially they are all equally humans just taking different roles and having different ages and levels of development. From one hand, there are hierarchies, governments, plans, rules, on the other hand, those are all made up structures and have only relative importance and relevance to each of us individually. The diversity and variety of possible forms and states of consciousness is infinite, it is impossible to limit them within a rigid set of rules, goals, values and structures imposed by the authorities, yet specific forms do develop as specific structures following specific rules, so neither limiting to rigid rules, nor discarding any rules altogether would be appropriate. In reality the rules and values are appropriate but flexible and relative, they change and adapt to changing social structures where the rules can be changed by the governments with the council from all the participants. So in a way, the traditional Christian hierarchical view of the Universe (that you outlined) with the King/God and his aristocracy making and imposing the rules and laws on the citizens is an outdated "monarchic" model of the communal realm of souls. It turns out (based on the NDE accounts) that in reality it is more "democratic" and pluralistic. In the realm of souls there is not a single soul community with a single highest Governor, single universal path and set of rules, but a variety of sub-cultures, groups of interest with their own values, goals, rules and opinions travelling along their own spiritual paths that may largely differ from and disagree with each other and even with the views, rules and values of the "government", just like here on Earth. My personal opinion is that there is no universal telos in the universe (defined by the highest "God"-like spiritual authority), but instead there is a large variety of developmental paths traversing the space of the infinite variety of the possible states of consciousness, so the universal consciousness (as a community of souls) is not developing along a single universal path with a single ultimate goal, but sort of "expanding" into an infinite fractal of the infinite variety of states of consciousness in all directions, and there is no end to this expansion process since such space is infinite. As one NDE experiencer said, when he asked there "So what is the plan?" the answer he received was "There has never been a plan".

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:17 pm
Now if everything above seems to you that it can never be anything more than a religious story - OK.
If you say that you don't believe it's possible for humans to know through direct experience such things, that's one thing and I'm OK with it.
It's just that I was not certain if it's the above or I was not doing a good job to explain my point

Yeah, we are missing each other. For clarification: I am religious; I am a storyteller; and I commune with non-corporeal beings. I value religion as a relinking to the Source; I value story or myth as the technology of meaning, purpose and direction; and I value communion for the direct experience it provides. I do not use any of these words negatively. When I say you are offering a religious story, I am not demeaning or reducing its value. I know that it is possible to know non-corporeal entities through direct experience because I've had the experience way beyond mere belief. That said, I am also reporting that my experience yields a different view than yours and this is why I don't align with all of what you say. Meanwhile, as you follow your Path of Heart, as I follow mine, and as others follow theirs, I wish everyone a blessed and fruitful journey.

For your consideration: