The realm of the Demiurge

[AshvinP]

Alright, so we have arrived from a different angle at the same place at which you arrived with Cleric from the more phenomenological angle. It is the question of how the natural lawfulness, reflected in the OT pole of evolution, can be increasingly united with the lawfulness of higher cognitive modes, reflected in the NT pole, through our thinking consciousness. How can the caterpillar metamorphose through the chrysalis into the butterfly, from within us? Since reality is unified in its essence, the lawful domains are already intertwined (our experience wouldn't be coherent if they weren't) and the metamorphosis can therefore be described as the act of us becoming more inwardly conscious of how they are intertwined. We cannot rightly call ourselves 'God' in our innermost nature unless we can also be creative like the Gods are. An engineer cannot build a new bridge unless he learns how previous bridges were built.

Now, assuming there is an answer to this question of reconciling the natural and spiritual, the exoteric human form and the esoteric state (and why wouldn't there be?), the key consideration is as follows - can you imagine that this answer has already been found (through the Mystery of Golgotha)? Or, at least, the answer has already been pursued and fleshed out in significant detail? Of course we don't mean in some abstract theoretical way, but in a completely inward experiential way.

That brings us to Cleric's last questions to you as well:

Hopefully we have pinpointed something very important – how should we innerly relate to that part of the Divine which is not yet manifested within our perspective?
1/ Do we expect that manifestation as a kind of thickening of our conscious state, since we already are the Source but we just miss some of the details?
2/ Do we realize that it’s not only about filling gaps but that the geometry of our own sense of being has to be continually sacrificed, such that something of the Divine can inflow into us, which presently can’t even fit the geometry of our intuition?
...
Does it make sense to you to see prayer in this way – as continuous sacrifice of the geometry of our intuition of self, such that new levels of consciousness can manifest, which can’t presently be even conceived (by purifying our present forms of spiritual activity and intuition of self)?

You somewhat indicated a partiality for #1 above - the reconciliaton hasn't happened yet, we don't know how it will happen, and we just need to wait in expectation and see how it will unfold. But this expectation misses the crucial fact that the NT metamorphosis was one in which we become responsible for spinning our own chrysalis (or ark) - as individuals and collectives - and bringing about the unfoldment. Or, perhaps more accurately, attuning ourselves to the higher spheres in which the reconciliation has already taken place. Again, it is a matter of becoming more inwardly conscious of the way in which the levels of lawfulness already overlap and interweave. That is why the Christ impulse is synonmyous with the impulse towards greater Self-consciousness or Self-knowledge. We shouldn't assume the last 2,000 years of human civilization were a huge gap where spiritual evolution was put on pause. The esoteric has already started unfolding in exoteric forms through human culture - modern philosophy, aesthetics, and science are all ways in which the interweaving lawfulness has been progressively unveiled, albeit only in the dimmest possible way by the intellect, so far looking from the outside-in. So, with that further context, what do you make of the questions above?

Well, I think I already commented on this, so we go in circles.

The sacrificial process that Christ accomplished opening for us the venue of further progress, when approached from esoteric perspective, is to "crucify" our mind structures where the dualistic delusion and egoic separate self resides. This is, according to the Christian understanding, the corrupted human nature that we inherited from our ancestors since the fall of Adam. In the modern language, we inherit the corrupted dualistic mind structure genetically. That is the nature that prevents us from uniting with the Father through the Son and Spirit, so it needs to be sacrificed and transformed into a new structure of consciousness feasible for dwelling of the Trinity in us, which is a nondual cognition. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20) This transformation is possible during our human life, but only to a certain extent, because the corrupted mind structures extend to material brain levels of our body that are very resilient and resistant to such transformation. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:40) It is only a new material human form, a new incorruptible flesh that Christ revealed in his resurrected body after full death of his human body that can fully become a dwelling and fit vessel of the Divine, a body where the nondual structure of consciousness can flourish without any resistance from the dualistic bodily mind structures. Also, Gospels do not predict any positive progress of humanity as a whole until the second coming of Christ, and on the opposite, predict degradation of humanity to the point of Antichrist taking power. They also predict that exoteric Kingdom of Heaven on Earth will only be established by Christ himself returning to Earth and resurrecting humans in new incorruptible bodies.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power." (2 Timothy 3 )

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2)

I already outlined my interpretation of the above Christian view based on my own spiritual experience of the resilient resistance of the egoic and dualistic subconscious mind structures to the nondual transformation, and my conclusion that human body in its current composition is not fit for the nondual state of consciousness. So, at this point, we remain in divergence. I do not believe in the possibility of exoteric transformation of human body and mind accompanied by or/and accomplished by the progress of humanity, at least not in any near future. According to my inner experience and to the Christian views, the historical process of humanity will not be a path of continuous progress, but it will go through a disruptive crisis point leading to radical exoteric transformation of the human nature that will make it fit for the egoless nondual mode of consciousness and unroot "the law of sin" from the human flesh.

So yes, in our higher cognition we can attune ourselves to the higher spheres in which the reconciliation has already taken place, and we should do it by all means during our current human life. But our corrupted body-mind structures will remain alien to such reconciliation until they will be radically transformed by a disruptive Divine intervention.

The esoteric has already started unfolding in exoteric forms through human culture - modern philosophy, aesthetics, and science are all ways in which the interweaving lawfulness has been progressively unveiled

When I say I don't believe in human progress, I meant the progress on the large scale. There definitely has been some progress in human culture, however, its effect on the human society at large has been virtually nonexistent. We can see many examples of that in history: the rich German culture created by some outstanding German individuals in science, art and philosophy did not prevent the German society from falling into the worst forms of fascism. Same process is happening now in Russia where the rich Russian culture of 19th century did not prevent the country from slipping into Putin's fascist dictatorship. Culture is a product of only advanced human individuals that constitute a small percentage of population while the rest majority remains largely unaffected and under the influence and control of government propaganda and mass culture.

Alright, Eugene, I guess there is no interest in escaping the rigid confines of the intellect. Nothing I wrote was meant as a prompt to derive beliefs or interpretations from the scripture or any external authority, only as another angle on the phenomenology of cognition. All of these other topics are simply conceptual handles for us to orient within our own first-person stream of becoming. And you say that you are also most interested in that first-person experiential orinetation, but whenever it comes to the lawful gradient and what metamorphoses can be accomplished through spiritual training right now, you default back to beliefs and interpretations and socioeconomic opinions about the state of the world. You keep interpreting the scripture with your intellect, in the most literal fashion possible, exactly as the evangelicals who believe Satan is akin to some being with hoofs and horns who roams around the Earth.

Isn't this really the antithesis of spiritual freedom? A state in which our stream of becoming on Earth is declared to be entirely dictated by genetics, demonic entities, exoteric forms, fascist dictatorships, etc. and to be entirely reliant on external salvation from some apocalyptic event which forces a 'radical exoteric transformation', as a preconditon to the esoteric nondual consciousness? This is exactly what is meant in Plato's allegory - we are only unfree as long as we keep ourselves enslaved by this inner helpless orientation.

In short, the question is not about what you believe, what you prefer, or what interests you, but what can acutally be sought from within in complete thinking freedom? It is about how we can progressively sacrifice those Earthly beliefs, preferences, theories, and interests to make room for the inflow of heretofore unsuspected Divine impulses. We can't keep looking at the past and extrapolating that linearly into the future if we want to attain a concrete understanding of our own real-time spiritual evolution. Nothing innovative arrives by people dwelling in ancient traditions and customs where it is safe and comfortable, refusing to take any step into the unknown. "I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." But since you haven't answered Cleric's questions, even after I asked them again, I can only conclude there is no interest in venturing into unexplored territory armed with 'every kind of prayer and petition' and the Spirit of courage.

PS - As Cleric suggested before, we could come here with reams of quotes from Steiner which make your apocalyptic scenarios look like a breezy walk in the park. And if we only presented those in a one-sided way which seemed to agree with what you are saying about 'progress', you would declare Anthroposophy and Steiner the most enlightened spiritual view ever. But that would be completely neglecting the spiritual pole of existence which is unmanifest and unseen. It is that pole which has ensured you are not glued to the ground 24/7, blindly following sympathies and antipathies, indulging in depraved sensuous pleasures to the point of death. It has ensured you can sit at a computer, or in a house doing meditation, and live your life in relative peace, without constantly worrying about being eaten, raped, or killed. That pole works into our lives by virtue of the courageous souls who did not give up and rest comfortable when things got tough, but who continued to pioneer the currents of spiritual evolution so that we may now have the opportunity to do the same for those who come after us, which is none other than we ourselves.

[Stranger]

Alright, Eugene, I guess there is no interest in escaping the rigid confines of the intellect. Nothing I wrote was meant as a prompt to derive beliefs or interpretations from the scripture or any external authority, only as another angle on the phenomenology of cognition. All of these other topics are simply conceptual handles for us to orient within our own first-person stream of becoming. And you say that you are also most interested in that first-person experiential orinetation, but whenever it comes to the lawful gradient and what metamorphoses can be accomplished through spiritual training right now, you default back to beliefs and interpretations and socioeconomic opinions about the state of the world. You keep interpreting the scripture with your intellect, in the most literal fashion possible, exactly as the evangelicals who believe Satan is akin to some being with hoofs and horns who roams around the Earth.

Isn't this really the antithesis of spiritual freedom? A state in which our stream of becoming on Earth is declared to be entirely dictated by genetics, demonic entities, exoteric forms, fascist dictatorships, etc. and to be entirely reliant on external salvation from some apocalyptic event which forces a 'radical exoteric transformation', as a preconditon to the esoteric nondual consciousness? This is exactly what is meant in Plato's allegory - we are only unfree as long as we keep ourselves enslaved by this inner helpless orientation.

In short, the question is not about what you believe, what you prefer, or what interests you, but what can acutally be sought from within in complete thinking freedom? It is about how we can progressively sacrifice those Earthly beliefs, preferences, theories, and interests to make room for the inflow of heretofore unsuspected Divine impulses. We can't keep looking at the past and extrapolating that linearly into the future if we want to attain a concrete understanding of our own real-time spiritual evolution. Nothing innovative arrives by people dwelling in ancient traditions and customs where it is safe and comfortable, refusing to take any step into the unknown. "I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." But since you haven't answered Cleric's questions, even after I asked them again, I can only conclude there is no interest in venturing into unexplored territory armed with 'every kind of prayer and petition' and the Spirit of courage.

That is not a result of intellect, these are not "beliefs, preferences, theories, and interests". That is a conclusion of the direct inner experience. But again, we can spend days and pages here throwing quotes and philosophical arguments that will lead us nowhere. When St. Paul stated "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" he concluded that not from philosophical discourse, but from his inner practical experience of trying to follow Christ in his mind and experiencing a fierce resistance and non-compliance with the Divine law from the "flesh". And that is the only way we can also know it - only by attempting to reach to the nondual state of oneness and experiencing from within how our human nature relentlessly rejects and resists such state and continues to follow its old patterns of the dualistic "law of sin".

So, it is the other way around: it is your view of the possibility of the spiritual progress of humanity based on transformation of human nature on its own that is your intellectual belief, which contradicts both with the message of Gospels and with the direct inner experience of many people who attempted to practically follow the path of transformation both in Western and Eastern traditions (me included).

[AshvinP]

Alright, Eugene, I guess there is no interest in escaping the rigid confines of the intellect. Nothing I wrote was meant as a prompt to derive beliefs or interpretations from the scripture or any external authority, only as another angle on the phenomenology of cognition. All of these other topics are simply conceptual handles for us to orient within our own first-person stream of becoming. And you say that you are also most interested in that first-person experiential orinetation, but whenever it comes to the lawful gradient and what metamorphoses can be accomplished through spiritual training right now, you default back to beliefs and interpretations and socioeconomic opinions about the state of the world. You keep interpreting the scripture with your intellect, in the most literal fashion possible, exactly as the evangelicals who believe Satan is akin to some being with hoofs and horns who roams around the Earth.

Isn't this really the antithesis of spiritual freedom? A state in which our stream of becoming on Earth is declared to be entirely dictated by genetics, demonic entities, exoteric forms, fascist dictatorships, etc. and to be entirely reliant on external salvation from some apocalyptic event which forces a 'radical exoteric transformation', as a preconditon to the esoteric nondual consciousness? This is exactly what is meant in Plato's allegory - we are only unfree as long as we keep ourselves enslaved by this inner helpless orientation.

In short, the question is not about what you believe, what you prefer, or what interests you, but what can acutally be sought from within in complete thinking freedom? It is about how we can progressively sacrifice those Earthly beliefs, preferences, theories, and interests to make room for the inflow of heretofore unsuspected Divine impulses. We can't keep looking at the past and extrapolating that linearly into the future if we want to attain a concrete understanding of our own real-time spiritual evolution. Nothing innovative arrives by people dwelling in ancient traditions and customs where it is safe and comfortable, refusing to take any step into the unknown. "I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." But since you haven't answered Cleric's questions, even after I asked them again, I can only conclude there is no interest in venturing into unexplored territory armed with 'every kind of prayer and petition' and the Spirit of courage.

That is not a result of intellect, these are not "beliefs, preferences, theories, and interests". That is a conclusion of the direct inner experience. But again, we can spend days and pages here throwing quotes and philosophical arguments that will lead us nowhere. When St. Paul stated "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" he concluded that not from philosophical discourse, but from his inner practical experience of trying to follow Christ in his mind and experiencing a fierce resistance and non-compliance with the Divine law from the "flesh". And that is the only way we can also know it - only by attempting to reach to the nondual state of oneness and experiencing from within how our human nature relentlessly rejects and resists such state and continues to follow its old patterns of the dualistic "law of sin".

So, it is the other way around: it is your view of the possibility of the spiritual progress of humanity based on transformation of human nature on its own that is your intellectual belief, which contradicts both with the message of Gospels and with the direct inner experience of many people who attempted to practically follow the path of transformation both in Western and Eastern traditions (me included).

But you have only reached the first position which Cleric outlined below (and I am still wondering if you will acknowledge the post/questions were even written). So the appeal to nondual revelation of absolute 'non-compliance' is a non-starter. It is yet another intellectual web spun from a transient form of intuition which has been idolized. The most ironic thing is that, if you only took your own position more seriously, you would immediately realize that is indeed the case. The intellectual web is being spun exactly from the flesh who is weak, rather than the spirit who is willing. The spirit who is willing to do what? Willing to relent its stream of becoming to externalized abstractions like 'genetics' and 'human nature' and call it quits? Clearly that is nowhere near the message of the Gospels.

Here we have to clearly distinguish two positions.

In one case we focus on what we already experience as our purified sense of being and basically say “Within this intuition I’m already the Source. Thus everything that I don’t grasp from the Divine will come as a kind of ‘filling the gaps’ of my sense of being.” (here I'm using this Oneness with the Source in the purest way possible, free from all the pitfalls that you have mentioned)

In the other case we’re also fully aware that we’re of the same essential nature as Source yet we reach the insight that our very sense of being (the sense of the pure being that is Aware, that Thinks and Wills) is in itself a transient form of intuition. Thus no matter how much we meditate and try to purify that sense of being, we find there only as much of the Divine as is already revealed within ourselves. That which is not yet unveiled we can never find within ourselves. Many metaphors are available for this. One of the most popular is that the fish is unaware of the water. Similarly, by trying to purify the intuition of that which is Aware and Thinks, we’re still exploring intuition within certain spiritual ‘geometry’. To find the Divine that lives outside that geometry, we need a quite different approach. We can’t extract it from what we already have (and what we consider to be One with the Divine) but we have to die into the consciousness of the Divine, we have to sacrifice the intuition of our present sense of being, such that something that we can’t even conceive of, can take its place. This is not a one shot event but continuous transformation (recently addressed in another post as the continuous incarnation of the higher being).

[Stranger]

So, the bottom line is simple:

- The authentic spiritual traditions of the past such as traditional and Gnostic Christianity, Hunduism and Buddhism, in spite of their divergences, all agreed that the transformation of the human material body-mind structure, as it currently exists, to comply with the Divine law is impossible. That view was not a philosophical dogma, but a result of inner spiritual experience of the masters and founders of these traditions who observed the actions of both the Divine law and the actions of the human body-mind composition in their inner experience.

- From the late medieval to our times a group of sects calling themselves "esoteric", such as Rosicrucians, Freemasons, Hermetics, Theosophical
and Anthroposophical movements, appeared and claimed to be the successors of the spiritual traditions of the past. One of their common grounds is the claim that not only technological or cultural, but also spiritual progress of humanity is possible and the human material composition is amendable to the Divine law. They simply ignored the views of the authentic spiritual traditions stating that such progress is not possible while still claiming that they are in general agreement with the spiritual traditions of older times. It is not a coincidence that such movement occurred in parallel with Western secular enlightenment and humanism movement that shared exactly the same belief in the progress of humanity as a whole. It was exactly the same intellectual philosophical idea of human progress that precipitated in both secular and "esoteric" movements during the last centuries in the West.

[Stranger]

But you have only reached the first position which Cleric outlined below (and I am still wondering if you will acknowledge the post/questions were even written). So the appeal to nondual revelation of absolute 'non-compliance' is a non-starter. It is yet another intellectual web spun from a transient form of intuition which has been idolized. The most ironic thing is that, if you only took your own position more seriously, you would immediately realize that is indeed the case.

Forget about ignorant Eugene. If you would talk to St. Paul who would tell you this, how would you argue with him? Would you tell him that it is his "yet another intellectual web spun from a transient form of intuition which has been idolized"?

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)

PS: I'll answer the Cleric's questions tomorrow

[AshvinP]

But you have only reached the first position which Cleric outlined below (and I am still wondering if you will acknowledge the post/questions were even written). So the appeal to nondual revelation of absolute 'non-compliance' is a non-starter. It is yet another intellectual web spun from a transient form of intuition which has been idolized. The most ironic thing is that, if you only took your own position more seriously, you would immediately realize that is indeed the case.

Forget about ignorant Eugene. If you would talk to St. Paul who would tell you this, how would you argue with him? Would you tell him that it is his "yet another intellectual web spun from a transient form of intuition which has been idolized"?

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)

I can present you with all the esoteric understandings of these verses, of the OT and NT in general as a holistic phenomena reflecting our spiritual evolution (which is pointed out by many, many philosophers besides Steiner) - an evolution which did not come to an abrupt halt thousands of years ago - but that will have very little meaning for you. You would call it 'cherry-picking' or 'canonical agenda' or something else, because you are only motivated to a follow a logical progression which is already leading to what you believe to be true. Otherwise you will follow it diligently right up to the point where it begins to question your previous assumptions - as you have a few different times on this thread - and then abandon it wholesale. The issue is very simple, but what's not simple is how to bring your attention to it.

Here's another way of stating it. The issue is that you have no interest in the first-person 'how', what you call the lawful 'mechanisms/structures', of spiritual (cognitive) evolution - you feel it is just an optional inquiry that people can take as a detour on the way to nondual consciousness. But then you derive conclusions about the nature of spiritual evolution and absolute non-compliance and so forth which presuppose exactly a knowledge of the the lawful mechanisms/structures. You basically understand our Earthly biological-psychological existence exactly as the [20th century] materialists do, inflexibly conditioned from the bottom-up by genetics. Likewise your view of history and cultural evolution is a thoroughly exoteric one. By losing all interest in the 'how', you have confined yourself to this exoteric understanding which you then use to derive all your interpretations of ancient texts and your view of spiritual evolution in general.

[Stranger]

I can present you with all the esoteric understandings of these verses, of the OT and NT in general as a holistic phenomena reflecting our spiritual evolution (which is pointed out by many, many philosophers besides Steiner) - an evolution which did not come to an abrupt halt thousands of years ago - but that will have very little meaning for you. You would call it 'cherry-picking' or 'canonical agenda' or something else, because you are only motivated to a follow a logical progression which is already leading to what you believe to be true. Otherwise you will follow it diligently right up to the point where it begins to question your previous assumptions - as you have a few different times on this thread - and then abandon it wholesale. The issue is very simple, but what's not simple is how to bring your attention to it.

The issue is indeed simple. There are discarnate spiritual forces of dualistic realm that all the traditions of the past warned us about (and I gave here plenty of quotes on that). These forces are interested in keeping souls in the reincarnation recycling system of their domain. They influenced a lot of human beliefs and institutions, and developed sophisticated arguments to convince souls to remain trapped in their domain. For me this discussion was very useful because I wanted to hear at least some of their arguments here and test my discernment against them (because I will be hearing them again when I leave the body). Honestly, I found these arguments quite weak and unconvincing. Overall, they just sound like "Oneness, Christ, whatever, just come back to human form and we will wipe out your memory to make sure you forget about your idiotic nonduality ideas and blindly serve our system again". Nice try

Here's another way of stating it. The issue is that you have no interest in the first-person 'how', what you call the lawful 'mechanisms/structures', of spiritual (cognitive) evolution - you feel it is just an optional inquiry that people can take as a detour on the way to nondual consciousness. But then you derive conclusions about the nature of spiritual evolution and absolute non-compliance and so forth which presuppose exactly a knowledge of the the lawful mechanisms/structures. You basically understand our Earthly biological-psychological existence exactly as the [20th century] materialists do, inflexibly conditioned from the bottom-up by genetics. Likewise your view of history and cultural evolution is a thoroughly exoteric one. By losing all interest in the 'how', you have confined yourself to this exoteric understanding which you then use to derive all your interpretations of ancient texts and your view of spiritual evolution in general.

That's right, I have no interest in the "hows" of the dualistic state of being, be it a state of consciousness or of material structures. But I am interested in the "hows" of the nondual state and have indeed been experientially studying exactly that.

[Federica]

For me this discussion was very useful because I wanted to hear at least some of their arguments here and test my discernment against them (because I will be hearing them again when I leave the body).

I believe this avowal is closer to the truth of your reason to be here, compared to the ‘flagship’ reason: I’m here to help people discover nonduality (I already said here what the fully true reason is).

The negotiation - as much as you don’t like it, this is exactly the word! - the negotiation with yourself, turned inside out into the wording of your exchanges, especially those with Ashvin - especially with Ashvin not for any other reason that the specific form of his insights is a greatly fitting reactor to just your inner organization, evidently signaled by the fact that you like it way less than Cleric's, although it expresses the same path - the negotiation with yourself, turned inside out into the exchanges,is taking placealthough in somewhat subdued ways.

Notwithstanding the subdued ways, it pokes outby itself, like here, which tells itwillkeep on doing its work, growing its fruits, after you will have retreated from the forum "to continue to humbly and carefully explore what views can open up to your sight".

I'm happy you - an impulse within you - are - somewhat gradually through the series of your forum phases - doing this favor to yourself. I am happyyouare doing this favor to yourself, Eugene!
.

[Stranger]

For me this discussion was very useful because I wanted to hear at least some of their arguments here and test my discernment against them (because I will be hearing them again when I leave the body).

I believe this avowal is closer to the truth of your reason to be here, compared to the ‘flagship’ reason: I’m here to help people discover nonduality (I already said here what the fully true reason is).

The negotiation - as much as you don’t like it, this is exactly the word! - the negotiation with yourself, turned inside out into the wording of your exchanges, especially those with Ashvin - especially with Ashvin not for any other reason that the specific form of his insights is a greatly fitting reactor to just your inner organization, evidently signaled by the fact that you like it way less than Cleric's, although it expresses the same path - the negotiation with yourself, turned inside out into the exchanges,is taking placealthough in somewhat subdued ways.

This discussion about the progress of humanity and overall reasons to reincarnate into humans hopefully will be useful for other people who may care because we will all be hearing these arguments.

Overall, to summarize, this thread was about the structure of dualistic domain governed by discarnate beings remaining in the dualistic state (which we collectively label as “Demiurge”) and the way to liberate ourselves from the realm of duality and reach to the natural state of Oneness. The discussion showed the astounding degree of deception and the structure of intellectually sophisticated lies that the dualistic realm is built upon. This is not surprising because the dualistic perception of reality is a big lie in the first place, so a lie can only produce more lies.

So, we will let other readers decide for themselves what they choose – remain in the duality or transition to Oneness, the choice is free, there are no expectations.

[Stranger]

Hopefully we have pinpointed something very important – how should we innerly relate to that part of the Divine which is not yet manifested within our perspective?
1/ Do we expect that manifestation as a kind of thickening of our conscious state, since we already are the Source but we just miss some of the details?
2/ Do we realize that it’s not only about filling gaps but that the geometry of our own sense of being has to be continually sacrificed, such that something of the Divine can inflow into us, which presently can’t even fit the geometry of our intuition?

Definitely #2

Let’s look at this. Does it make sense to you to see prayer in this way – as continuous sacrifice of the geometry of our intuition of self, such that new levels of consciousness can manifest, which can’t presently be even conceived (by purifying our present forms of spiritual activity and intuition of self)?

Yes, in a way, the nondual state is a state of continuous prayer of openness and connectedness to the Cosmic scale of the Divine. But the key is that in the nondual state all the "geometry of our sense of being" and "intuition of self" is already sacrificed, it is "crucified" on the Cross of the nondual state, and if it is not yet sacrificed then itis not yet a nondual state. Nevertheless, it continues a life of its own in our subconscious layers, just like St. Paul said

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. ... I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.".

Sorry Cleric, I would like to end this discussion, I have other responsibilities. I hope we discussed all relevant questions. The state and practice of prayer and connectedness-Oneness with the Divine is a matter of all authentic spiritual traditions of the West and East. The only think we need to do is to humbly follow and actually practice them (instead of spending hours in writing tens of pages of intellectual discussions).