Philosophical Speculations

Eugene, I understand very well your perspective.

What I tried on several occasions to hint at, is that higher stages of consciousness not only bring more awareness about ourselves and the surroundings (which we can call consciousness expansion) but fundamentally change our understanding of what time is. And it's very difficult to bring to attention the fact how fundamental this change really is. Mainly because the direction where this change is to be found is located exactly in the blind spot of consciousness. This doesn't simply change our ideas about time but also what be-ing is, what consciousness is, what hierarchy is and so on. The moment when the true nature of time is penetrated in the course of development, is one of the most transforming experiences one could go through. The reason is that many of the seemingly disconnected aspects of existence (like the mentioned above) converge.

The pluralistic model envisions beings forever experiencing a metamorphosis through an infinite succession of conscious states. Higher stages of cognition reveal that what we experience in time, as successive states of consciousness, can be experienced from a higher perspective as something spread out in consciousness. In other words - time becomes space-like. It is enough to experience even only one such higher state so that we can become aware of a direction, an axis which leads to states of consciousness which encompass into wholenesses larger and larger domains of states which are otherwise experienced only in linear sequence.

When this is vividly experienced, the idea of hierarchy is conceived in completely different light. It's not simply that different peers take different government positions. It's more like the government itself represents a state of being which shapes the space-time-consciousness domain, containing the potential time-experiences for the different gov. positions, experienced as individual beings. This hierarchy has nothing at all to do with struggle for power between peers. I've already spoken about this - a human form of consciousness can't take the place of beings from whose standpoint, their consciousness create the whole space-time-consciousness matrix, as something whole, which we experience only in a much more fragmentary and sequential way.

We often hear about fractal patterns in Nature. Fractals are usually envisioned primarily in space-like fashion. But the more important aspect of this is the fractal structure of time, which is at the same time the fractal structure of consciousness and being.

It's an oversimplification but it makes sense to distinguish two axes of time - one is the 'horizontal', sequential flow of states of consciousness, the other is 'vertical', where the flow leads to higher orders of unity of the lower states. When we find ourselves within this vertical structure, as in spiritual-scientific meditation, we understand that at a point at infinity 'above' us, there's a potential state which encompasses the whole infinite potential of possible states of being as something existing all at once. This immediately brings into focus the general pattern of evolution that all beings follow. The beings not only experience endless metamorphoses of states but every next state brings them to a greater degree of integration. A faint projection of this integrative process we find in the phenomenon of memory. We not only experience sequence of states but every next state is such that integrates within itself every state that has been so far experienced. The critical point in evolution where we find ourselves, is for humans to find this vertical direction of integration of consciousness and not only the endless flow in horizontal time. The difficulty of this is that it's not simply an intellectual understanding that must be added but a whole inner transformation, the turning inside-out of the ego, which leads to understanding of what we are and what our place in the Cosmos is.

In this sense, the telos is not that the gods create arbitrary rules and regulations because they enjoy restricting humans. Every higher fractal level (being) shapes a palette of potential states of being that can be experienced independently and as such within time. The vertical aspect of time can be understood as two polar streams - one of expansion and one of contraction. Here's one of the traps modern spirituality falls into. The nondual movement recognizes only 'horizontal' dualities - oppositions within ordinary consciousness. It is thought that once these dualities are balanced, the mystery of the Cosmos is resolved. But there's also the vertical duality - the two flows of integration and fragmentation of the states of being. This is completely unrecognized most of the time. It's connected with the 'cross' symbol that David brought to attention. The two 'vertical' streams always exist together but beings experience themselves as being 'in phase' more with one than the other. The ancient Hindus described this as the inbreath and outbreath of Brahma. In modern terms the outbreath is known as 'involution', while the inbreath as 'evolution'. The ancient Hindus lived in the period of involution, they were 'in phase' with the outbreath, they were descending into more and more fragmentary states and this gave shape to their particular form of spirituality. Then follows the point of 'reversal' where the human "I" finds its own bearings and can synchronize itself with the inbreath, the evolution, the integrative process. That's why spirituality also evolves. The methods of the ancient Hindus were adapted for involution, they were still sinking more and more into the fragmentary outbreath of Maya and were aiming to balance it out, to avoid falling in complete degeneration. Today spirituality must become evolutionary. The hardest problem to resolve is how the ego relates to the higher orders of integration. As long as we focus entirely on 'horizontal' time, nothings seems to have changed in history. We only observe the flat space-time-consciousness and its endless metamorphoses. The outflow and inflow are always present. The event at the point of reversal made it possible to synchronize with the integrative flow but for every individual human this can only happen through personal choice and effort. It is true that collective consciousness as a whole is moving in that direction but the individual can only synchronize with the evolutionary flow in freedom, out of Love. It is by our own most intimate realization that we come to this. We understand that evolution of consciousness reaches its fullest potential not when we experience endless metamorphosis of forms but when these metamorphoses lead to higher and higher orders of integration. In these higher states we can look 'back' and explore as spread before us, the spiritual structure which we were previously probing only pixel by pixel in sequence. The integrative process leads the beings to higher orders of existence, where they participate creatively in the outbreath, to shape worlds where other beings will experience their unique evolutionary spirals. At the same time they continue their own inbreath integration which ultimately leads to the Fountainhead.

The insight into the deeper structure of time-consciousness-being is one of the most important things that humanity would have to comprehend more and more. And there's great resistance for this - we should be under no illusion about it. Not only humans but other beings too, have used the apparent disconnect between the horizontal and vertical, to create for themselves a 'private' realm, that is so to speak out-of-phase with the integrative aspect of the vertical flow. And these beings are not going to give up their earthly kingdom easily. Our whole modern civilization is utterly dependent on the horizontal aspect of time. The idea of higher orders of time-consciousness is deeply disturbing for most of present humanity - as for the scientifically minded, so for the religious. For the scientifically, because it shatters the view of a Universe evolving frame by frame in time, which gives the ego the comfort of 'there's nothing above me'. For the religious, because they expect that the Earth will be simply left behind and higher existence will be continued in a different realm. The idea that it is through the individual human being, that the bridge between the vertical and horizontal should be established, is still avoided with great force. We should be clear that even though the Macrocosmic point of reversal has been passed, the majority of beings are still attached to the outbreath, searching for their purpose in the ever fragmenting forms of being. And this is something we should get used to. There'll be a whole host of human beings in the far future who will refuse (quite unconsciously for most) to synchronize with the integrative flow and will form a kind of sub-human race. Yet the whole spiritual being of Earth is already on ascending path, since it has been 'fertilized' by the Sun Spirit. This will make the conditions for such a sub-human race more and more inappropriate, they'll force themselves into degeneration.



This is one of the most exciting topics for me - time - because there converge all the different mysteries that face us. It should be noted that the fractal picture of time is not without its merits. It doesn't reflect the full reality. For one, it presents an overly simplified tree-like hierarchy of the fractal states/being. It's not exactly like this but we have already gone too far in this post.
I'm trying to put something together that lays out these things in a more gradual and logical way but it takes 'horizontal' time

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:48 pm David, pleeeeze! I am religious. I do not "pooh-pooh labeling them as 'religious'."

Oh! Then, so I may better grok where you are coming from and intend to go to, pleeeeze define what you mean by 'religious', smoke-and-mirrors-mystery wielding shaman.

Lou Gold wrote:The Me-to-We challenge we face is Unity in Diversity.

Let's say that the 'challenge' of 'solving' said puzzle-'problem' is communally 'solved' at some point, what then? IOW, just what do you think is the raison d'etre of 'the/our game' - beyond that of a 'cross-word puzzle', say?

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:48 pmI agree with the notion of an advancing expanding enhancing human Spirit endlessly running new experiments to see what works or fits best and see a multitude of religious and non-religious paths unfolding and enfolding in an ongoing process without a singular gate.

P.S. Yah, there are a 'multitude' of 'em! But all 'roads' (i,e, 'directions' or 'gates') do not 'lead' to 'Rome'. Some (most?) are dead-ends, and some said 'ends' may be couch-potato-cushier than others, all-embracing candy-man.

Consider the implications of: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and [relatively] many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and [relatively] few there be that find it."

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:19 am

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:17 pm
Now if everything above seems to you that it can never be anything more than a religious story - OK.
If you say that you don't believe it's possible for humans to know through direct experience such things, that's one thing and I'm OK with it.
It's just that I was not certain if it's the above or I was not doing a good job to explain my point

Yeah, we are missing each other. For clarification: I am religious; I am a storyteller; and I commune with non-corporeal beings. I value religion as a relinking to the Source; I value story or myth as the technology of meaning, purpose and direction; and I value communion for the direct experience it provides. I do not use any of these words negatively. When I say you are offering a religious story, I am not demeaning or reducing its value. I know that it is possible to know non-corporeal entities through direct experience because I've had the experience way beyond mere belief. That said, I am also reporting that my experience yields a different view than yours and this is why I don't align with all of what you say. Meanwhile, as you follow your Path of Heart, as I follow mine, and as others follow theirs, I wish everyone a blessed and fruitful journey.

I should add that I believe in multiple integrated gates rather than some singular Gate. This is why I follow a syncretic religious tradition that integrates European Christianity with African and Amazonian Shamanism. One way to describe the integration or syncretism is to say there is still an all-important Gate but Christ has many names. Another aspect is to accept that creativity, healing and insight function in bottom-up as well as top-down ways, most often in co-creative networked ways where heavenly angels and forest spirits work together fluidly. The result can be imaged more as a vast mycorrhizal network than a palace on a peak, but this is only metaphor embedded in mysteriousness. Deep humility, strong discipline and mutual respect are important virtues.

David_Sundaram wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:18 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:48 pm David, pleeeeze! I am religious. I do not "pooh-pooh labeling them as 'religious'."

Oh! Then, so I may better grok where you are coming from and intend to go to, pleeeeze define what you mean by 'religious', smoke-and-mirrors-mystery wielding shaman.

Lou Gold wrote:The Me-to-We challenge we face is Unity in Diversity.

Let's say that the 'challenge' of 'solving' said puzzle-'problem' is communally 'solved' at some point, what then? IOW, just what do you think is the raison d'etre of 'the/our game' - beyond that of a 'cross-word puzzle', say?

The answer to your question is not a definition or concept but a direct experience available through deep ritual or introspection or grace. The indigenous saying is the intention is to talk with God and not about God and I respect and revere the deeply personal aspect of direct experience. May you have good conversations.

The bottom line, is to show up doing one's work and play with loving kindness with deep devotion to what one knows but cannot fully express. Reason is a tool to use or surrender appropriately. The raison d'etre is the wonder of being here now amongst all our relations performing the sacred purpose placed within each of us. For myself this means supporting life in its manifold bodily and spiritual manifestations. How? By participating and performing communally. May all be blessed.

To your push for definition, all I can say is that based on what I've said you either know or don't know directly in your own experience what I'm talking about. If you recognize it there is no need for further definition and if you don't recognize it further definitions won't help. Be the judge for yourself, not for others.

PS: I'm not a shaman or enlightened and whatever small bits of wisdom I possess were born of mistakes. Welcome to the club if you like. There's an open center.

David_Sundaram wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:42 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:48 pmI agree with the notion of an advancing expanding enhancing human Spirit endlessly running new experiments to see what works or fits best and see a multitude of religious and non-religious paths unfolding and enfolding in an ongoing process without a singular gate.

P.S. Yah, there are a 'multitude' of 'em! But all 'roads' (i,e, 'directions' or 'gates') do not 'lead' to 'Rome'. Some (most?) are dead-ends, and some said 'ends' may be couch-potato-cushier than others, all-embracing candy-man.

Consider the implications of: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and [relatively] many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and [relatively] few there be that find it."

Consider the implications Sure and this simply means participate and your actions will reveal whether you are in error or in truth. If in error, don't dwell on it, make amends and don't do it again. It's a process. Sometimes difficult. Sometimes joyous. Play the hand you've dealt.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:06 pm
This is one of the most exciting topics for me - time - because there converge all the different mysteries that face us. It should be noted that the fractal picture of time is not without its merits. It doesn't reflect the full reality. For one, it presents an overly simplified tree-like hierarchy of the fractal states/being. It's not exactly like this but we have already gone too far in this post.
I'm trying to put something together that lays out these things in a more gradual and logical way but it takes 'horizontal' time

I grok your transcend-and-include notions of development. I grok that the ancient Hindus had a different experience of time. I grok that indigenous peoples also have a different conception of time. Same for the old Greeks and Hebrews. My question is about the notion of progress. My test would be the overall interconnected health of Planet Earth or The Garden. Do you believe that the health of The Garden is better now than during the times of ancient Hindus or when indigenous ways were globally predominant? Overall health and wholeness would be my standard progress.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:47 pm Perhaps of interest here, another story of encounters with the Seraphim ...

I won't go into details - I just hope that the man will find his way in these new experiences.

Other than that, reports like these only show how import the "ground school" is before one delves into these depth.
Of course, this man got there by an act of grace, he wasn't prepared but nevertheless it's interesting to observe how one interprets the experiences with whatever conceptual vocabulary he's equipped with.

For example, the insistence on nonduality, as in its popular meaning, is in clear conflict with the experience. How can one experience communication with other beings if he's supposed to have transcended the self/other duality? If we continue to insist that there's no difference between our conscious perspective and that of other beings (even if we are of the same One essence), we are simply smearing out the given facts of experience and we're entering self-made confusion. This is only to tell how responsible we should be in these areas and how damaging it could be if we try to squeeze the facts to fit our own understanding, instead of allowing the facts to speak for themselves - even if they force us to change our mind.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:06 pm ...
This is one of the most exciting topics for me - time - because there converge all the different mysteries that face us. It should be noted that the fractal picture of time is not without its merits. It doesn't reflect the full reality. For one, it presents an overly simplified tree-like hierarchy of the fractal states/being. It's not exactly like this but we have already gone too far in this post.
I'm trying to put something together that lays out these things in a more gradual and logical way but it takes 'horizontal' time

Cleric, your vision of horizontal and vertical times makes sense, and you can find many confirmations of it in multiple NDE accounts where the NDE experiencers say that time in the Earth domain has nothing to do with the "vertical" time in the "afterlife" domain. In a way, we can say that time is multi-dimensional. You are also right about involution vs evolution, fragmentation vs integration - both processes are important and take place simultaneously, there should be no opposition between them - we explore new territories of the fractal space of consciousness by experiencing and living through (incarnating into) forms of life, and then we integrate and bring back the acquired experiences and knowledge into the wholeness. We are, each of us, perform both tasks and play both the fragmentation roles (when we go out to the frontiers of the fractal, incarnate into living forms and have a large variety of experiences) and integration roles (when we connect, bring back and integrate our experiences into the wholeness).

In addition, as I said earlier, there is not a single-stream fragmentation-integration process (such as the evolution of the humanity as a whole towards some telos towards the integration with the Divine), but a large variety of involution/evolution processes each being of its own value and importance. For example, there is an ongoing process of the development of music with exploration of musical forms and their esthetics, and for musician souls this process may be held more valuable and important than any other venues of development. Ask a dedicated musician and he might tell you: "For me life is about creating music and that is the only thing important, all other stuff is just wandering in a mall. The beauty of music is all that matters for me in life", and he would be right from his perspective. Similarly, for a dedicated Buddhist the goal may be attaining Nirvana, this is all that matters for him and his soul group, and they would be right from their perspective. Same applies to the followers of monotheistic religions who hold the communion and integration with highest Divine as the ultimate telos and value, and they are also right from their perspective, but there is a subtle difference here: while musicians or Buddhist (usually) accept that their goals and values are not universal and are only relevant to them, the monotheists tend to think that their telos and values, their "Gate", are universal and that every soul in the Universe should comply with them (voluntarily or involuntarily). "I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6), and even though such statement can be interpreted in non-exclusive ways, the predominant interpretation of it among Christians is rather exclusive. And, together with Lou, I see such exclusive attitude quite problematic.

Eugene I wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 pm Same applies to the followers of monotheistic religions who hold the communion and integration with highest Divine as the ultimate telos and value, and they are also right from their perspective, but there is a subtle difference here: while musicians or Buddhist (usually) accept that their goals and values are not universal and are only relevant to them, the monotheists tend to think that their telos and values, their "Gate", are universal and that every soul in the Universe should comply with them (voluntarily or involuntarily). "I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6), and even though such statement can be interpreted in non-exclusive ways, the predominant interpretation of it among Christians is rather exclusive. And, together with Lou, I see such exclusive attitude quite problematic.

I have always found this sentiment rather Self-defeating, pun intended. Are you not proposing an exclusive way when claiming all 'exclusive' ways are "problematic" (which I take to be another way of saying, "wrong")? Clearly you are correct that many within the Western religious tradition feel impelled to 'universalize' their values and purposes. Yet the question still remains, what exactly are those values and purposes and can they be discerned systematically approaching scientifically? The answer to that question, whatever it may be, cannot rest on what we feel is too exclusive or non-exclusive from our rather limited perspectives.