Philosophical Speculations

lorenzop wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:23 pm None of these wishes and preferences (details) are required, our only spiritual duty is establishment of 'Fullness\Unboundedness\Freedom', and this does not require accepting this or that philosophy, or reading this book or that book.

You are right, Lorenzo, there is a wide diversity of paths leading eventually to the same experience/state of Oneness. And even when Oneness in the Essense is realized at some point on the path, there is still a diversity of further evolutionary paths in the infinite Cosmic fractal. It is Oneness in Essense and diversity in forms and manifestations of the Essense. Cosmic Reality is never reducible to any monocultures and mono-structures.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:23 pm None of these wishes and preferences (details) are required, our only spiritual duty is establishment of 'Fullness\Unboundedness\Freedom', and this does not require accepting this or that philosophy, or reading this book or that book.

But you have just required your own wish and preference that reality should be such that we can fulfill our duty by establishing fullness, unboundedness, freedom, which basically means doing whatever we think feels good. So you say anyone suggesting that reality is otherwise is in error and is not fulfilling what you have required as the 'spiritual duty' of humanity.

The fact is, as soon as one starts thinking about existential issues and expressing their thoughts to others, they are establishing a hierarchy of values and priorities. These need to be understood and reasoned through, not ignored or pretended not to exist. Someone could say the best way to fullness, unboundedness, and freedom is eradicating every human being in the Cosmos. Then there is no longer any dualistic subject/object split, any physical boundaries, any desires and preferences imposed on others, etc. What can you possibly respond to that?

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:46 pm

But you have just required your own wish and preference that reality should be such that we can fulfill our duty by establishing fullness, unboundedness, freedom, which basically means doing whatever we think feels good. So you say anyone suggesting that reality is otherwise is in error and is not fulfilling what you have required as the 'spiritual duty' of humanity.

The fact is, as soon as one starts thinking about existential issues and expressing their thoughts to others, they are establishing a hierarchy of values and priorities. These need to be understood and reasoned through, not ignored or pretended not to exist. Someone could say the best way to fullness, unboundedness, and freedom is eradicating every human being in the Cosmos. Then there is no longer any dualistic subject/object split, any physical boundaries, any desires and preferences imposed on others, etc. What can you possibly respond to that?

No, Oneness not about what feels good . . . Oneness is not a feeling, when lived, it is not an experience.

and perhaps yes, should one be inclined towards existential issues and expressing these thoughts to others, they may find and communicate a hierarchy of values and priorities . . . but this is not required, nor is this preference a facet of Oneness.
Also, an individual could pursue a world of values and Beings and have little familiarity or interest with Oneness . . .

lorenzop wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:18 pm No, Oneness not about what feels good . . . Oneness is not a feeling

Exactly

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:46 pm Someone could say the best way to fullness, unboundedness, and freedom is eradicating every human being in the Cosmos. Then there is no longer any dualistic subject/object split, any physical boundaries, any desires and preferences imposed on others, etc. What can you possibly respond to that?

Oneness implies love and compassion (those and not "feelings", but aspects of the nondual state of consciousness), so a being in the state of Oneness cannot possibly do any harm to other beings while being One with them. The closer someone is to the realization of Oneness, the more they think and act in harmony with love and compassion. Therefore, someone close to or in the state of Oneness cannot possibly "say the best way to fullness, unboundedness, and freedom is eradicating every human being in the Cosmos", because in the state of Oneness harming even one human being is impossible regardless of how poorly that being behaves. That does not mean that certain civil or criminal laws should not be enforced to limit the capacity of such poorly-behaving humans to harm other human beings (which may involve their retention and isolation to minimize the overall harm to the society).

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:13 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:31 pm Ok well that means the soul-unit sense of "me" is still being retained, it hasn't been sacrificed towards the pursuit of
the Divine Self, Oneness.

When you sacrifice a certain egoic preference and completely dissolve its karmic pattern, do you completely erase it from memory? Do you forget what you did when you previously acted according to that preference? Keeping the history in memory is not the same as retaining the karmic pattern of it the functional structures of psyche. We should never erase the memories of our egoic and dualistic life because they are important lessons, they form our immunity to the egoic-dualistic state of consciousness so that we never fall to it again. If we forget, the Lucifer (=Demiurge) will have a chance to convince us again to taste the "apple of good and evil".

What are your thoughts on Cleric's discussion of the germinal Jupiter aeon - regardless of whether you agree with it, or think such things can be known/confirmed, did you follow the logic of it? In other words, if this completely new human-Angelic sense of individuated existence is possible, do you see why that means there is still even more Earthly personality to sacrifice in what you are calling the state of nondual realization? We aren't at the question of even whether it is possible yet, only the implications IF it is possible. The possibility and knowability questions can be pursued once these implications are clear.

I think it is too early to discuss so distant future. The key is: that eon is the eon of nondual existence where the beings exist in a shared nondual state of consciousness as Oneness. So, it will not happen until each of us will take responsibility to transcend into the nondual state from the dualistic state in which we currently exist.

In a certain sense, yes. Memories, such as sensory impressions and conceptual memories like our various identifications, are tools for us to learn moral lessons in our stream of becoming. Once we learn the lesson, the memory is transmuted into an intuitive skill, capacity, force. As long as we remain with memories of the content of past experiences and identifications, in the sense we are now familiar with, we are being conditioned by them rather than freely using the forces gained through their content. As long as we remain with that content, we still have moral lessons to be learned from it. That is what was meant by Pralaya - all the content of the previous rhythmic period returns to the state of unmanifest potential, which then precipitates through another period of manifestation in a completely metamorphosed form. The new form cannot at all be anticipated or understood from the perspective of the old content. This doesn't only apply for planetary aeons, but much smaller rhtyhmic periods as well.

The point here is that you are thinning out the green line into non-existence again. You are saying the angels, archangels, archai, and so on all exist in an equal 'nondual state of consciousness as Oneness'. By ignoring the living details and depth of this evolutionary progression, it is completely missed that even the angels still have something left to sacrifice in the pursuit of Oneness with the Divine Self, let alone enlightened human beings on Earth. These higher angelic beings went through a human-like existence as well - they had their equivalents of 'initiates' and 'masters' and so forth. Their imaginative meditations seeded our current Earth existence. Yet even after completing that entire stage of evolution, they are still working towards the Christ ideal. Once we start to really reflect on these profound and concrete details, it is revealed, among many other things, why our preference of an option to leave Earthly evolution after our initial efforts at 'dualistic ego transcendence' is so misguided.

To avoid this revelation, one must say (1) it is impossible to know these germinal states and the consciousnses of higher hierarchies in any living detail (which obviously violates any genuine nonduality) or (2) any knowledge of these living details which goes against my current preference must be from the dualistic heirarchy of false light. Generally it seems you have moved away from #1 (Kantian split) to #2 over the last year or so, yet sometimes you also speak of how Anthroposophy, Steiner, higher cognition, etc. has a lot of insightful things to teach us. But that doesn't make any sense either - if the detailed archetypal unfoldment of Cosmic evolution through the activities of the higher heirarchies is deception, then all of Anthroposophy and SS collapses. So there are a lot of inconsistencies here, as usual. In no circumstance is any logical argument given for why the revelations of higher cognition are untrustworthy. Actually it is usually 'agreed' that they are perfectly valid revelations but somehow are irrelevant to how we should be preparing for our journey across the threshold.

The whole situation is really very simple and can be exemplified in the following way



I repeat that the issue is not about whether we'll reincarnate or not. This is secondary. The question is whether we do our best here and now to understand the living functioning of reality or we have decided that we have figured out everything and there's nothing of value left for us to do here.

Please don't take this as some agitation that we should forever remain stuck in our lower life, enslaved by the Demiurge. It's precisely the opposite - we're looking for the true lawfulness of reality and the proper way to evolve. Otherwise we find ourselves in an embarrassing situation, we go up there and expect to work in the lines of the angels, only to find out that they do even more of the work that we believe we have grown over.

And all this can be made good if we simply do our research here and now, instead of fantasizing our bright nondual future and refusing to consider anything that throws more light on the actual state of affairs. Basically we call dual and orthogonal any knowledge that even remotely hints that there's still more coffee making to be done. Not because we have carefully verified the facts but only because it clashes with our nondual dream.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:22 pm In a certain sense, yes. Memories, such as sensory impressions and conceptual memories like our various identifications, are tools for us to learn moral lessons in our stream of becoming. Once we learn the lesson, the memory is transmuted into an intuitive skill, capacity, force. As long as we remain with memories of the content of past experiences and identifications, in the sense we are now familiar with, we are being conditioned by them rather than freely using the forces gained through their content. As long as we remain with that content, we still have moral lessons to be learned from it. That is what was meant by Pralaya - all the content of the previous rhythmic period returns to the state of unmanifest potential, which then precipitates through another period of manifestation in a completely metamorphosed form. The new form cannot at all be anticipated or understood from the perspective of the old content. This doesn't only apply for planetary aeons, but much smaller rhtyhmic periods as well.

The point here is that you are thinning out the green line into non-existence again. You are saying the angels, archangels, archai, and so on all exist in an equal 'nondual state of consciousness as Oneness'. By ignoring the living details and depth of this evolutionary progression, it is completely missed that even the angels still have something left to sacrifice in the pursuit of Oneness with the Divine Self, let alone enlightened human beings on Earth. These higher angelic beings went through a human-like existence as well - they had their equivalents of 'initiates' and 'masters' and so forth. Their imaginative meditations seeded our current Earth existence. Yet even after completing that entire stage of evolution, they are still working towards the Christ ideal.

I think you are conflating Oneness with uniformity again. As I said many times, the evolution in the "horizontal" plane of the green line continues even after attaining the integration in the "vertical" one.

Once we start to really reflect on these profound and concrete details, it is revealed, among many other things, why our preference of an option to leave Earthly evolution after our initial efforts at 'dualistic ego transcendence' is so misguided.

Earth by far is not the only place for growing souls to evolve, it is only one of millions of similar planets and realms. The evolution of Consciousness happens in all those places and realms simultaneously, and souls incarnate in different places on their path to learn more in a larger variety of different scenarios. For some reason Anthroposophy is very anthropo-centric and locked all evolutionary paths only into the Earth and humanity. Most of other spiritual traditions and the modern knowledge from NDE and regression accounts suggest otherwise.

We discussed this many times before, so we are going through circles again. I studied many spiritual traditions and hundreds of modern NDE and regression accounts and never seen there any assertion that the human souls must only reincarnate into humans. This view seems to come from Rosicrucian, Freemasonic and Anthroposophical group of teachings. There is a possibility of the influence from the dualistic hierarchy here because this hierarchy is very interested in keeping the souls locked into incarnating into humans, because they currently have such a strong grip and influence on humanity, so it is a way for them to keep these souls under their control. This does not necessarily mean that these teachings are entirely dualistic, it only means that they were influenced by the dualistic hierarchy in some of their views.

Generally it seems you have moved away from #1 (Kantian split) to #2 over the last year or so, yet sometimes you also speak of how Anthroposophy, Steiner, higher cognition, etc. has a lot of insightful things to teach us. But that doesn't make any sense either - if the detailed archetypal unfoldment of Cosmic evolution through the activities of the higher heirarchies is deception, then all of Anthroposophy and SS collapses. So there are a lot of inconsistencies here, as usual. In no circumstance is any logical argument given for why the revelations of higher cognition are untrustworthy. Actually it is usually 'agreed' that they are perfectly valid revelations but somehow are irrelevant to how we should be preparing for our journey across the threshold.

As I said many times, it depends on with which hierarchy of higher-order beings you connect and which curvatures you follow - the hierarchy of nondual beings or the hierarchy of dualistic ones. You may think you are practicing SS but you may actually be working with/for the dualistic hierarchy. Or, you may also practice SS by working with the nondual one. That is why development of spiritual discretion and working on your nondual realization are necessary, because it is only by reaching to the nondual state (even if it is not yet fully developed) when one acquires the ability to distinguish between the dualistic and nondual higher-order beings. Otherwise, the dualistic beings look very much like "angels of light", they can be nice and loving and communicate "righteous" words and meanings, and so they are indistinguishable from the nondual beings for the souls unfamiliar with the nondual state. But if you are in a nondual state, you can sense immediately if a higher-order being you are communicating with is sharing with you the same nondual spiritual state or not.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:14)
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:48 pm Basically we call dual and orthogonal any knowledge that even remotely hints that there's still more coffee making to be done. Not because we have carefully verified the facts but only because it clashes with our nondual dream.

It is only when the "nondual dream" becomes nondual experiential reality when you will know what to do next in your journey. A butterfly after emerging from pupa will most likely move in a very different direction compared to where the worm was moving, and live in different places compared to where the worm was living. But because the worm has no experiential knowledge of such places, a possibility to live in any other places than where it currently resides is unthinkable for it.

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:53 pm Otherwise, the dualistic beings look very much like "angels of light", they can be nice and loving and communicate "righteous" words and meanings, and so they are indistinguishable from the nondual beings for the souls unfamiliar with the nondual state. But if you are in a nondual state, you can sense immediately if a higher-order being you are communicating with is sharing with you the same nondual spiritual state or not.

I feel like you are copying and pasting your earlier posts now. We already know that you like to call any living knowledge of Oneness which requires sacrifice and work, from the "dual beings", and any vague, abstract knowledge of Oneness, from "nondual beings". Note that mystical experience without proper cognitive training can become the most abstract of all. Higher cognition through proper training is exactly what allows us to discern the light from dark forces, as we grow into how those forces are active within our own soul life, distracting or furthering our efforts towards the high ideals of universal human existence. Even our ordinary reasoning can gain this discernment if developed with rigorous effort, which is unfortunately forsaken by those hypnotized by the nondual dream. It is quite obvious to any healthy reasoning why the nondual dream works in opposition to universal brotherhood and sisterhood, to the union of Wisdom with Love, on Earth as in Heaven.