Philosophical Speculations

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:08 pm It doesn't make any difference, Ashvin, in this context, what "nested" exactly means. We can take any possible meaning of nested, there is not one of them that would eliminate Eugene's contradictory statements, here arguing for the direct connection with Source, no hierarchies "whatsoever", and there accepting the Divine hierarchies as a matter of fact. The hierarchies could be nested, rooted, twisted, braided, whatever. It doesn't change the point.

Federica, I agree that the definitions don't matter AND I see the contradictions as part of the Divinity. I do not try to resolve them. Learning how to lovingly hold Paradox, allowing it to enter and change me, has been my most fruitful way. And, I surely accept that others may choose to wrestle with this according to their own nature following different ways. So be it.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:19 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:08 pm It doesn't make any difference, Ashvin, in this context, what "nested" exactly means. We can take any possible meaning of nested, there is not one of them that would eliminate Eugene's contradictory statements, here arguing for the direct connection with Source, no hierarchies "whatsoever", and there accepting the Divine hierarchies as a matter of fact. The hierarchies could be nested, rooted, twisted, braided, whatever. It doesn't change the point.

Federica, I agree that the definitions don't matter AND I see the contradictions as part of the Divinity. I do not try to resolve them. Learning how to lovingly hold Paradox, allowing it to enter and change me, has been my most fruitful way. And, I surely accept that others may choose to wrestle with this according to their own nature following different ways. So be it.

Lou, Paradoxes, with capital P, can synthesize reality, but the contradictions we are wrestling with here are on another plane. Here it's about stating things and, a few days later, their opposite, not as an illustration of the mystery of Paradox, but just because after a while it's challenging to memorize all the details of a huge amount of intellectual statements.

Nested hierarchy is another clever invention of the Luciferic hierarchy that they want us to believe in order to keep our souls in bondage to them. If you believe you are nested in them, you will perceive yourself as nested, this is how the power of beliefs works.

In the Body of Christ there is no nesting, but there is oneness of the multiplicity of members each being directly rooted in Christ.

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[a] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1 Corinthians 12

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:08 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:34 pm I think we should be clear what "nested" means.

It doesn't make any difference, Ashvin, in this context, what "nested" exactly means. We can take any possible meaning of nested, there is not one of them that would eliminate Eugene's contradictory statements, here arguing for the direct connection with Source, no hierarchies "whatsoever", and there accepting the Divine hierarchies as a matter of fact. The hierarchies could be nested, rooted, twisted, braided, whatever. It doesn't change the point. Moreover, trying to explain the contradiction using Lou's suggestion, Eugene only added a new contradiction. That of a hierarchy that is not a hierarchy. So let's not provide him now with ample material to dilute everything, and divert attention, as usual.

Well I wasn't correcting any of your comments. But I think it makes a difference if people are interested in now understanding what it means more precisely, even if they didn't earlier or contradicted themselves. These things need to be understood somewhat clearly if any inner contradictions are to be noticed. Otherwise it will just feel like semantic nitpicking.

The quote above from Cleric should also make clear that the path of integration goes through the "I" which expands into the structured potential of the Earthly environment. A mystical realization of Oneness doesn't automatically mature our souls into a state where the spirit guides declare us fit for freedom to visit the Mars planetary potential. This makes no sense if we understand the nested structure properly.

But I am still curious how Eugene will answer your question. And I am curious how we can get rid of "nested" as understood above, but not lapse into a plurality of soul structures which undermines the pole of Oneness.

Stranger wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:17 pm Nested hierarchy is another clever invention of the Luciferic hierarchy that they want us to believe in order to keep our souls in bondage to them. If you believe you are nested in them, you will perceive yourself as nested, this is how the power of beliefs works.

You do realize you sound like this guy, right?

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:27 pm Oh, thanks for counting me on the side of those who delve into actual spiritual science! The reality is, though, that I also don't have a great focus with exercises. But I know I can improve, and you probably mean something similar, and future-oriented, when you say " I seem unable".

Interesting. My initial response was to say that, while I know it is possible to improve, I had doubts that I will. But thinking about it, I realized that I will not "give up". Many a time I have thought about doing that, and hope for a stronger will in my next life, but that thought passes quickly.

May I ask (if you feel like sharing a few thoughts, and if not, sorry for the inappropriateness): from the standpoint of your accomplished and refined philosophical understanding, how do you see your philosophical-spiritual way forward?

I suspect my philosophical understanding might have reached its end, barring some new "Aha!" moment. Which is how it started, with the realization that no strictly spatio-temporal entity, like a computer, could have a perception of something extended in space and/or time, since every micro-event in a computer is separated by space and/or time from all others. But we can have such perceptions, so we are not strictly spatio-temporal. To be sure, it took about 30 years, and lots of help from Coleridge (via Barfield's What Coleridge Thought) and others before I got it packaged into shape to use it effetively in forum debates, mostly with mystical reductionists. But now that it is packaged, I don't really know if there is a further direction to take. In a way, what it shows is a limit to intellect, since tetralemmic polarity is not understandable in the way normal intellect understands concepts. And since it is an intellectual product, who knows what higher cognition would make of it, if anything.

As for spiritual way forward, I think it is just keeping working on gaining more control over my thinking. When reading forum posts I am constantly distracted. Because of that, it takes me a long time and uses up lots of mental energy. One might say that this from Steiner has been inspirational (from Occult Science):

All civilized life and all spiritual effort really consists in the one work, which has for its object to make the ego the master. Everyone now living is engaged in this work whether he wishes it or not, and whether or not he is conscious of the fact.

So I would say that my current work is trying to do this work more consciously.

What keeps you interested in following SS discussions, is it a kind of preparation, an inexplicable appeal, something else?

I guess I find them inspirational, and that if I had more mental energy I would be able to get a lot more out of them.

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:40 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:19 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:08 pm It doesn't make any difference, Ashvin, in this context, what "nested" exactly means. We can take any possible meaning of nested, there is not one of them that would eliminate Eugene's contradictory statements, here arguing for the direct connection with Source, no hierarchies "whatsoever", and there accepting the Divine hierarchies as a matter of fact. The hierarchies could be nested, rooted, twisted, braided, whatever. It doesn't change the point.

Federica, I agree that the definitions don't matter AND I see the contradictions as part of the Divinity. I do not try to resolve them. Learning how to lovingly hold Paradox, allowing it to enter and change me, has been my most fruitful way. And, I surely accept that others may choose to wrestle with this according to their own nature following different ways. So be it.

Lou, Paradoxes, with capital P, can synthesize reality, but the contradictions we are wrestling with here are on another plane. Here it's about stating things and, a few days later, their opposite, not as an illustration of the mystery of Paradox, but just because after a while it's challenging to memorize all the details of a huge amount of intellectual statements.

Early in my forum participation I said that I wished we would not argue over definitions. Scott Roberts counseled me with, "But that's what philosophers do." Of course, he is correct and this is probably why I often shift my gaze toward visual images. I capitalized the P only as a distinction from the practical contradictions I wrestle with but, as the New Age meme says, "Don't' sweat the small stuff. PS: It's all small stuff." I do like that along with Lao Tzu saying, "There was never a big problem that could not have been solved when it was small." OK, I think I found a way to have fun with definitions. Thanks for the poke, Federica.

Stranger wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:17 pm
In the Body of Christ there is no nesting, but there is oneness of the multiplicity of members each being directly rooted in Christ.

Exactly as said above, the soul-spirit 'substance' of humanity as a whole is the body of Christ. We can only understand how we are the 'body of Christ' by discerning the nested structure of the Cosmic organism. These are not just empty phrases written in scripture to sound nice and point to a nebulous oneness of all beings, but point to infinitely profound details of our mutual interrelations, as understood from the perspective of first-person states of being. Even with ordinary reasoning, if we look around we see some people who share the same blood. We see more people who have different bloodlines but share the same language and culture. Even more people have different languages but share the same goals and ideals. All people on planet Earth share the same moral conscience. These are indicative of nested relations, plain and simple. The Earth as a whole living organism is the Body of Christ. This isn't any trite metaphor. And it would be a shame if we forsake this profound truth because we have an antipathy for the concept of our individual ego being "nested" within something higher than it.

ScottRoberts wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:34 pm As for spiritual way forward, I think it is just keeping working on gaining more control over my thinking. When reading forum posts I am constantly distracted. Because of that, it takes me a long time and uses up lots of mental energy.

Scott,

I wonder if you have experimented with the various will exercises given by Steiner? You are probably familiar with them. Such as setting a certain simple task to do every day at certain time and doing it no matter what. It could be something as simple as puhsups or some stretching exercise. There are many other such exercises. I also struggle with summoning willpower and thereby with controlling my line of thinking at all times. These sorts of exercises really help and we can start with real simple ones, which we have almost no excuse not to do

We are all, being the Body of Christ, are nested in Christ directly without any matreshka-structure of higher order hierarchy. The hierarchy is a hierarchy of developmental levels and responsibilities.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me
Galatians 2:20