Stranger wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:15 pmI do not see any mention here or in Pseudo'-Dionysius writings about nested hierarchies. Pseudo'-Dionysius mentioned that the higher-order beings usually "deliver" messages from the Divine to lower level ones, but that does not mean that the beings are "nested".AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:39 pm 'Pseudo'-Dionysius was the first to openly teach the nested higher hierarchies in which man is embedded. I know previously you referened some modern author who believes otherwise, but the meaning of the available writings is very clear. Aquinas, who was of course much closer in time than we are, also references him and the teaching:
Aquinas wrote:Therefore there must needs be a distinction between the human and the angelic hierarchy. In the same manner we distinguish three angelic hierarchies. For it was shown above (Q. 55, A. 3), in treating of the angelic knowledge, that the superior angels have a more universal knowledge of the truth than the inferior angels. This universal knowledge has three grades among the angels. For the types of things, concerning which the angels are enlightened, can be considered in a threefold manner. First as preceding from God as the first universal principle, which mode of knowledge belongs to the first hierarchy, connected immediately with God, and, "as it were, placed in the vestibule of God," as Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. vii). Secondly, forasmuch as these types depend on the universal created causes which in some way are already multiplied; which mode belongs to the second hierarchy. Thirdly, forasmuch as these types are applied to particular things as depending on their causes; which mode belongs to the lowest hierarchy. All this will appear more clearly when we treat of each of the orders (A. 6). In this way are the hierarchies distinguished on the part of the multitude of subjects.
Stranger wrote:Right, there is noone to blame, that is why I said above "By the way, the Demiurge does not force anyone to incarnate, the souls are attracted to his realm by their egoic desires and the Demiurge simply takes advantage of that." The higher Self does not choose or dictate the soul what to do and where to incarnate, but it guides the soul very subtly and delicately providing it with the insights and spiritual revelations whenever the soul is ready. The soul chooses the realms to incarnate according to its inclinations, its worldview and mental patterns and its desires and interests (or, as the Buddhists say, according the "karma"). So, how do we know? Here is an example: imagine you were a gambling addict living and spending all your time in Casino and neglecting any spiritual interests and matters. Your addiction would make you to return to the Casino over and over again. Of course, it would be silly to blame the Casino managers for your addiction. But gradually you came to realize that it is an unhealthy addiction that hinders your growth, and therefore the Casino is an inappropriate place for you to spend your time there that impedes your healing and growth. You look around and realize that there are better places and activities other than Casino which would greatly help you to heal and develop. At that point you do not feel attracted to Casino anymore, at that point you know that the Casino is a wrong place for you to live. The managers of Casino will certainly try to convince you to stay (because you are the source of their income), but their arguments would not resonate with you anymore. Similarly, once we progress beyond the egoic state with its dualistic delusion and its addictions to bodily desires, we know that the human form with all its genetic and cultural programming into dualistic and egoic state of mind would be no longer an appropriate place for us to live.How do we know, from our current Earthly perspective, that we are too 'spiritually advanced' to continue the reincarnation cycle on the physical plane? After all, the fact that we are here means our Self within the higher spiritual planes, acting from living knowledge of those planes, already decided that it would be most reasonable and optimal to incarnate again for its further development and/or that of the Cosmic organism as a whole. The only way around this reality is for our Earthly self to blame that decision which its higher Self made on some other force, some other being, who ensared it in hedonistic desires. It is only here, on the physical plane, where the dualistic projection is occurring. Our higher Self would never conceive to blame its own decision to continue incarnating on some being apart from itself, because that perspective on reality simply doesn't exist for it. Why do we engage in this projective tendency? Because we want to convince ourselves that we are perfect moral beings already, capable of full conscious participation in the spirit worlds without any further development. But if we were more livingly aware of all our dark soul-tendencies at our current stage, as our higher Self is, it would be immediately clear to us why we must proceed through more discontinuities of consciousness to attain our ideals.
You don't want to let me goAshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:07 pm Nested simply means our current conscious perspective, our states of being, are unfolding within the ideational conscious perspectives of higher beings. Our states of being unfold within the 'curvature' of their intentional activity. This is the reason we experience a lawful progression of states from birth to death, infany to adulthood, from waking to sleeping - it is why we can speak of 'laws of nature' or the structured dynamics of our inner life. I would recommend you consider carefully this recent post by Cleric - viewtopic.php?p=19240#p19240. It actually speaks very well to this entire discussion of the relation between the higher spiritual-ideal planes (intuitive activity) and the physical plane we normally experience between birth and death (perceptual spectrum).
Now if you reject this nesting on the basis of your desire for 'complete sovereignty' for all perspectives, and you don't see anything wrong with basing such conclusions on your personal desires, then you must at least admit that you hold to a metaphysical plurality. There is no other imaginable way for multiple ideational-conscious perspectives to exist and yet all be One. Early Christian thinkers did not have the modern cognition and technical metaphors to clarify this intuition to the extent we do, yet they obviously felt that their conscious life unfolds entirely within the context of the higher hierarchies and the Godhead - that the former is entirely dependent on the latter.
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’" (Acts 17)
I don't believe the soul gains a complete realization between incarnations. That's not what we know based on the research data of the pre-birth memories and regression therapy, as well as from the accumulated knowledge about between-incarnation states from Hindu and Buddhist traditions. According to that data, the soul in between-births is still conditioned by its beliefs, desires, inclinations and soul mental patterns ("karma") which pretty much preserve the continuity of the state of consciousness and condition the choice of the next incarnation. In addition, the soul recycling system of the Demiurge in the astral plane have all tools and structures to make sure the souls remains brainwashed and in ignorance about other higher realms beyond the Demiurge's domain and reincarnates back into the human form. As I said above, the higher Self is not in complete control, the higher Self is simply the spark of the Divine spirit, it is "meek and humble", it only subtly guides the soul on its long journey and never violates its free will, but the soul is always free to listen or to ignore the subtle voice of the higher Self.The point is that the realization was already had between death-rebirth and that's why you are here on the physical plane now. Of course if your current egoistic self wants to think of the great wonders and wisdom of the physical world as a casino, prison, etc., then you will inevitably feel like it is a casino or a prison or whatever. A person who can only think in triangles will see everything as a triangle. But I am pointing to what your higher Self already decided after discarding its physical body, and purifying its lower soul-nature to some extent on the astral plane. So again it comes back to the inflationary question - do you really feel that your current physical perspective, with all its egoic entanglements in the 'casino', is more wise and enlightened than your higher Self who decided to incarnate from beyond the 'casino'?
(chat.openai.com)Q: If I want to stop reincarnating, is it enough to simply desire not to reincarnate?
A: The belief in reincarnation and the ability to stop it varies among different religious and spiritual traditions. In some belief systems, the concept of reincarnation is seen as a natural process that is determined by the actions and choices made in one's current life. In these belief systems, it may be possible to take steps to reduce the likelihood of reincarnation or to work towards a state of spiritual enlightenment in which the soul transcends the cycle of reincarnation.
In other belief systems, the process of reincarnation is determined by a higher power or karma, and the individual has little control over the process. In these belief systems, it may not be possible to stop reincarnation simply by desiring it.
It's worth noting that the concept of reincarnation is a belief and not a scientifically proven phenomenon, therefore the ability to stop it is also based on the specific belief system you adhere to.
It's also important to keep in mind that the ultimate goal of many spiritual and religious traditions is to live a virtuous life, regardless of whether or not there is a belief in reincarnation, and to seek inner peace and understanding.
Stranger wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:49 pmYou don't want to let me goAshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:07 pm Nested simply means our current conscious perspective, our states of being, are unfolding within the ideational conscious perspectives of higher beings. Our states of being unfold within the 'curvature' of their intentional activity. This is the reason we experience a lawful progression of states from birth to death, infany to adulthood, from waking to sleeping - it is why we can speak of 'laws of nature' or the structured dynamics of our inner life. I would recommend you consider carefully this recent post by Cleric - viewtopic.php?p=19240#p19240. It actually speaks very well to this entire discussion of the relation between the higher spiritual-ideal planes (intuitive activity) and the physical plane we normally experience between birth and death (perceptual spectrum).
Now if you reject this nesting on the basis of your desire for 'complete sovereignty' for all perspectives, and you don't see anything wrong with basing such conclusions on your personal desires, then you must at least admit that you hold to a metaphysical plurality. There is no other imaginable way for multiple ideational-conscious perspectives to exist and yet all be One. Early Christian thinkers did not have the modern cognition and technical metaphors to clarify this intuition to the extent we do, yet they obviously felt that their conscious life unfolds entirely within the context of the higher hierarchies and the Godhead - that the former is entirely dependent on the latter.
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’" (Acts 17)
OK, there are hierarchies of cognitive levels and states of consciousness that all beings progress through, which also correspond to the hierarchy of planes and realms where they reside. In that sense, these hierarchical levels are shared between beings at the same level. However, this hierarchy is not a single-dimensional vertical, it is very multi-dimensional and extends in a variety of dimensions of spiritual development. For example, there is a dimension of nondual realization, the dimension of love and service, the dimension of arts and aesthetics, the dimension of philosophy and science, and many others of which we don't even know. The Divine has infinite potential to explore and grow, the space of the states of consciousness is infinite, and it is continuously growing, learning and expanding into all of these dimensions through its vast variety of individuations and beings. The Divine learns through us.
Stranger wrote:I don't believe the soul gains a complete realization between incarnations. That's not what we know based on the research data of the pre-birth memories and regression therapy, as well as from the accumulated knowledge about between-incarnation states from Hindu and Buddhist traditions. According to that data, the soul in between-births is still conditioned by its beliefs, desires, inclinations and soul mental patterns ("karma") which pretty much preserve the continuity of the state of consciousness and condition the choice of the next incarnation. In addition, the soul recycling system of the Demiurge in the astral plane have all tools and structures to make sure the souls remains brainwashed and in ignorance about other higher realms beyond the Demiurge's domain and reincarnates back into the human form. As I said above, the higher Self is not in complete control, the higher Self is simply the spark of the Divine spirit, it is "meek and humble", it only subtly guides the soul on its long journey and never violates its free will, but the soul is always free to listen or to ignore the subtle voice of the higher Self.The point is that the realization was already had between death-rebirth and that's why you are here on the physical plane now. Of course if your current egoistic self wants to think of the great wonders and wisdom of the physical world as a casino, prison, etc., then you will inevitably feel like it is a casino or a prison or whatever. A person who can only think in triangles will see everything as a triangle. But I am pointing to what your higher Self already decided after discarding its physical body, and purifying its lower soul-nature to some extent on the astral plane. So again it comes back to the inflationary question - do you really feel that your current physical perspective, with all its egoic entanglements in the 'casino', is more wise and enlightened than your higher Self who decided to incarnate from beyond the 'casino'?
I think the interconnection of these dimensions and states is way more rich and complex compared to our simple mental schemes like "horizontal", "vertical" or "nested".AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:05 pm And none of these 'dimensions' are nested within each other, but basically exist on a horizontal plane next to each other? For ex., do the dimensions of 'blue', 'red', 'yellow', etc. exist within the overarching dimension of 'colors', which is encompassed within an overarching dimension of 'light-darkness polarity'? Or are the dimensions of 'painting', 'music', 'sculpture', nested within the dimension of 'arts and aesthetics'?
No, we are not passing all the blame to Casino managers. They have their part, the gaming addicts have their part. If we consider it from the perspective of "blame", then both are to blame pretty much equally. But it's actually not about blaming, blame is a very primitive human concept. It's about understanding the problem (of addiction, of Casino structures etc) and finding out ways how to heal and fix it. All those who are involved (both the addicts and the managers) need compassion and help from the side of more advanced beings to help them to stop their unhealthy activity and progress further in their development.This is what I said before. We are right back to blaming some external force, the 'casino manager', for our decision to reincarnate. Clearly something must be purified, transformed, etc. between death-rebith according to the Karmic laws, otherwise there would be no evolution and integration through successive journeys. We would be repeating the same thing infinitely like in Groundhog's Day. But to avoid the conclusion that we ourselves decided to reincarnate for our further development based on what we learn between death-rebirth, we project out the bogey man on the astral plane and blame him.
You can look again at the Buddhist cosmology, there is a rich variety of planes beyond the astral and material (Brahma-loka and Kama-loka in the Buddhist terminology). Of course, the Buddhist knowledge is limited and incomplete and probably not very accurate, but it gives a vague idea about the variety of realms. The Demiurge cannot ensure that we cannot progress beyond the astral because he cannot violate our free will to choose where to progress. He can only try to convince us to stick to his domain using whole bunch of sticky arguments, emotional manipulation and other "candies" to attract us (he is a good salesman), but at the end it's always our free choice, so there is noone else to blame.And what about the higher devachanic planes we travel through after the astral plane - what does your research data have to say about those? Does the bogey man ensure we never even make it those planes?
Brahmaloka is the world of "Great Brahmā", believed by many to be the creator of the world, and having as his name Mahābrahmā, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be." According to the Brahmajāla Sutta (DN.1), a Mahābrahmā is a being from the Ābhāsvara worlds who falls into a lower world through exhaustion of his merits and is reborn alone in the Brahma-world; forgetting his former existence, he imagines himself to have come into existence without cause. Note that even such a high-ranking deity has no intrinsic knowledge of the worlds above his own. ... The "Ministers of Brahmā" are beings, also originally from the Ābhāsvara worlds, that are born as companions to Mahābrahmā after he has speTt some time alone. Since they arise subsequent to his thought of a desire for companions, he believes himself to be their creator, and they likewise believe him to be their creator and lord.
Stranger wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:35 pm No, we are not passing all the blame to Casino managers. They have their part, the gaming addicts have their part. If we consider it from the perspective of "blame", then both are to blame pretty much equally. But it's actually not about blaming, blame is a very primitive human concept. It's about understanding the problem (of addiction, of Casino structures etc) and finding out ways how to heal and fix it. All those who are involved (both the addicts and the managers) need compassion and help from the side of more advanced beings to help them to stop their unhealthy activity and progress further in their development.
We certainly gain some experience and knowledge in between the incarnations. But first, there are no shortcuts in spiritual development, the continuity of the spiritual state is preserved but development continues both during incarnations and in-between. And also, the growth in-between lives is conditioned by the conditions of the plane where this between-life period happens. For most humans (except for bodhisattvas coming from other planes) it happens in the Demiurge domain where the conditions are also quite limited.
Is this what you feel has happened to you during life? Do you feel to be a victim of these memory wipes, distorted views and philosophies, political and economic propaganda, Abrahamic religions, etc? Do you feel these are are all forces acting upon you and you have little to no control over their manifestations or how they steer your life, and therefore you conclude they must have been set up by the Demiurge?There are many features of his ream that greatly impede the spiritual growth, such as the memory wipe at rebirth (how are we supposed to learn from incarnation to incarnation if we forget all our accumulated knowledge and experience every time we reincarnate?), the insane amount of distorted views and philosophies that confuse people's minds, the propaganda from political and commercial powers, the cultures that promote hedonistic and materialistic way of life, the religions that promote worship to the Demiurge and his hierarchy and brainwash people with distorted worldviews, and so on. Not to mention the insane amount of suffering in this realm, but it is not only about simply escaping from suffering. So again, this does not mean the spiritual growth is impossible in this realm, but it is greatly impeded. Surely, there is still some access to the knowledge of higher realms that is brought by higher-developed beings incarnating on Earth to help humans, but that knowledge often gets distorted by institutions and become hard to find and distinguish from innumerable distorted variants of it.
Nope, I don't feel that way. I freely chose to incarnate here based on my pre-birth state (level of ignorance, desires, interests etc). Even though the system was set up by the Demiurge, how can I blame him if that was my free choice, even if it was based on misinformation? The conditions here are not favorable for the spiritual growth, nevertheless, nothing can completely hinder the growth because the voice of the Divine spark helps me, just like it helps every other soul on the path through any conditions no matter how unfavorable and hindering they might be (even in hells). There are things in my life that I'm not in control, but I am in full control of my core inner spiritual life, and that's what really matters. But now, knowing all hindrances and limitations of the human condition, I will not incarnate as human again. There is nothing more here in the human form for me to learn, just like there is nothing for me to learn in Casino so there is no reason for me to go there. There is nothing the Demiurge can offer me and no arguments to convince me to attract me back to stay in his realm. I know where I need to grow, and I can do that more productively in other realms without the adverse conditions of the human form, there I can continue growing and learning as well as helping and contributing to the society in those realms.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:26 am Is this what you feel has happened to you during life? Do you feel to be a victim of these memory wipes, distorted views and philosophies, political and economic propaganda, Abrahamic religions, etc? Do you feel these are are all forces acting upon you and you have little to no control over their manifestations or how they steer your life, and therefore you conclude they must have been set up by the Demiurge?
Stranger wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:01 amNope, I don't feel that way. I freely chose to incarnate here based on my pre-birth state (level of ignorance, desires, interests etc). Even though the system was set up by the Demiurge, how can I blame him if that was my free choice, even if it was based on misinformation? The conditions here are not favorable for the spiritual growth, nevertheless, nothing can completely hinder the growth because the voice of the Divine spark helps me, just like it helps every other soul on the path through any conditions no matter how unfavorable and hindering they might be (even in hells). There are things in my life that I'm not in control, but I am in full control of my core inner spiritual life, and that's what really matters. But now, knowing all hindrances and limitations of the human condition, I will not incarnate as human again. There is nothing more here in the human form for me to learn, just like there is nothing for me to learn in Casino so there is no reason for me to go there. There is nothing the Demiurge can offer me and no arguments to convince me to attract me back to stay in his realm. I know where I need to grow, and I can do that more productively in other realms without the adverse conditions of the human form, there I can continue growing and learning as well as helping and contributing to the society in those realms.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:26 am Is this what you feel has happened to you during life? Do you feel to be a victim of these memory wipes, distorted views and philosophies, political and economic propaganda, Abrahamic religions, etc? Do you feel these are are all forces acting upon you and you have little to no control over their manifestations or how they steer your life, and therefore you conclude they must have been set up by the Demiurge?
In the Buddhist tradition souls like me are called anāgāmins (non-returners): "The anāgāmin is not reborn into the human world after death, but into the heaven of the Pure Abodes, where only anāgāmins reside. There they can attain full enlightenment"