Philosophical Speculations

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:01 pm

Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:43 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:03 pm PS: at the end, it is a question of value priorities. Is the highest priority to develop the structures of the WC and the cosmic organism and the individual souls only serve as the the builders of the WC? Or is it the other way around and the highest priority is the spiritual evolution of consciousness that happens through spiritual evolution of each individual soul, and the structures of the WC are only developed and put in place to facilitate the evolution? In other words, is it consciousness serving structures and organisms, or is it structures and organisms serving consciousness?

Notice how these questions presuppose a fundamental distinction between souls and world structures. The souls are conceived as self-suficient atoms which can freely dip into this or that world structure, as a child can choose their next ride at Disney Land. Ever since we speak of DeepMAL, it has been attempted to show from the most various angles that the structure of the soul is also the structure of the Cosmos. Without this understanding, self-knowledge and world-knowledge are hopelessly separate. Then one feels that it's OK to say "This ride sucks. I don't want to know anything about it. I'll just wait till the seatbelts are out and I'll go for a more mature one." Deeper and unprejudiced investigation however, reveals that unless we understand this ride, we don't understand our own spiritual structure. Then even if we step out of the cart, the spiritual structure of the ride will still be our environment and we'll understand it just as little as we understood it while on Earth. As said so many times, Initiatic science is not here to brainwash us to seek the same sickly ride over and over again but instead to help us understand the actual way of transforming it - which is the same as our own transformation. Otherwise it's all wishful thinking - the King's son having no interest to learn the details of the Kingdom at his present level of development, imagines himself far above such childish activities and expects that on the other side he'll be welcomed with laurel wreaths and invited to take any higher position he likes.

Cleric,

I grok and appreciate your caring cautious views. The false self is full of tricks and traps. Let me add an additional view from what I perceive in liminal initiatory space. Hopefully, it will be received as compatible with and not in opposition to your point-of-view. In deep spiritual work one arrives at a boundary, a crossing over in which everything changes including how one might previously have thought or not thought about it. On one side of the line lies the land of chance and trial-and-error where progress is performed by choice, by making mistakes and eliminating them in the light of evolving awareness. Scientifically, this might be called the land of the null hypothesis in which both mistakes and forgiveness are paramount. Then comes the line. If one chooses to cross over it, one will be told one must be very careful, do not proceed as if you can just play or experiment in your actions. Here, it's not about trial-and-error. It's about the Law and if you break the law you will return to the land of mistakes. You are new here. Do not presume to know. Ask before acting. Pay attention. It's a very fine study.

OK, enough said. Hopefully, a resonance will be heard in my tones.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:13 pm The good news is that the realm of concessions is not the realm where oneness is found and lived.
As a Wise Man once said - Render unto Ceasar what is Ceaser's, and render what is the Lord's unto the Lord.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:13 pm If one wishes to play an instrument in western music, such as a symphony or quartet playing Bach or Mozart . . . one has to make concessions to participate. 12 note chromatic scales, A440, etc. If one wants to play Indian music, one has to make a different set of concessions.
We have to make concessions to language, and perhaps to each other, in order to participate in this forum.
We walk through doors, and not bang into walls, etc.
Maybe one is not even aware of these concessions - maybe we are troubled by them.
The good news is that the realm of concessions is not the realm where oneness is found and lived.
As a Wise Man once said - Render unto Ceasar what is Ceaser's, and render what is the Lord's unto the Lord.
Interesting note - in this Wise Man quote above, He is making a concession to duality, He is granting duality out of compassion for His audience.
There can be no success in trying to banish these concessions, or call these concessions by another name ('fascio').
Fortunately for us we don't achieve Oneness by removing 'Ceasar', but by adding Oneness.

Stranger wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:33 pm The structures and souls are not separate, yet the souls, and Consciousness in general of which souls are the individuated spiritual activities, is MORE than just its structures, and the structures are only part of Consciousness. Structures is what Consciousness DOES, not what it IS. So, do not take it to extreme and say that if we prioritize Consciousness higher than its structures then it necessarily means that the "son has no interest to learn the details of the Kingdom". No, definitely the son has interest in such learning, and such learning is the essential part of its spiritual evolution. The question is whether the son is there to serve the building of the Kingdom, or if the Kingdom is being developed to facilitate the evolution of the sons? In other words, is Consciousness is there to serve developing structures, or if the structures are developed to facilitate the evolution of Consciousness? Of course, if we equate and reduce Consciousness only to its structures, then this question becomes an irrelevant tautology. But if we realize that Consciousness is something greater than its structures, then the answer comes naturally: of course the structures are developed to facilitate the evolution of consciousness and not the other way around.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:19 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:33 pm The structures and souls are not separate, yet the souls, and Consciousness in general of which souls are the individuated spiritual activities, is MORE than just its structures, and the structures are only part of Consciousness. Structures is what Consciousness DOES, not what it IS. So, do not take it to extreme and say that if we prioritize Consciousness higher than its structures then it necessarily means that the "son has no interest to learn the details of the Kingdom". No, definitely the son has interest in such learning, and such learning is the essential part of its spiritual evolution. The question is whether the son is there to serve the building of the Kingdom, or if the Kingdom is being developed to facilitate the evolution of the sons? In other words, is Consciousness is there to serve developing structures, or if the structures are developed to facilitate the evolution of Consciousness? Of course, if we equate and reduce Consciousness only to its structures, then this question becomes an irrelevant tautology. But if we realize that Consciousness is something greater than its structures, then the answer comes naturally: of course the structures are developed to facilitate the evolution of consciousness and not the other way around.

Here once again you try to forcefully split Structures and Consciousness in order to have a comfortable handle for which to say "Spiritual science is preoccupied with the Structures." But it has to be stated that this is a split that you yourself introduce. Notice the following: you continually speak about evolution of consciousness, development and so on. It has been asked many times but honestly I can't recall a clear answer: how do we understand evolution in such a context? Clearly, for there to be evolution, something of consciousness changes it becomes more attuned, more perfect, attains new capabilities, senses, etc. If this is the case, isn't it possible to speak more concretely about these changes?

In Mystery science it has always been known of the sheaths of the human being, of the finer organization (for example the chakras), how they project from the Cosmic Spheres and so on. From everything that you write it seems you put all of these things in the Structures basket and say "These structures are there to facilitate the evolution of consciousness and not for consciousness to serve them." OK, but if that is the case then what is it that evolves? What makes less evolved consciousness different from more evolved? You see, if you are to be consistent with your own ideas you have no choice but conceive of other structures which give the individuated instances of consciousness their particular characteristics and level of development. I have no clue what these structures would be - some hyper-chakras, hyper-bodies, I don't know. Unfortunately I don't think you know either. And if we look at the situation dispassionately, it turns out that once again you are simply willing to conceive of some inexplicable hyper realm of consciousness and oneness, all with the sole purpose to feel that you are standing on a ground which is untouchable by the lowly structuralism of spiritual science.

Let's go into more details. What in your view is the soul that evolves? I know the default answer, that it is an expression of the One Consciousness, yet there must be something which makes one expression do the things that you do and another to rob banks for example? What is it that changes as it evolves? Where do you place the soul sheaths and organs of which all esoteric traditions speak? Do they have anything to do with consciousness and its state of evolution or they are only training obstacles appropriate for the corresponding level, which facilitate the development of Consciousness and its hyper structures?

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:01 pm Cleric,

I grok and appreciate your caring cautious views. The false self is full of tricks and traps. Let me add an additional view from what I perceive in liminal initiatory space. Hopefully, it will be received as compatible with and not in opposition to your point-of-view. In deep spiritual work one arrives at a boundary, a crossing over in which everything changes including how one might previously have thought or not thought about it. On one side of the line lies the land of chance and trial-and-error where progress is performed by choice, by making mistakes and eliminating them in the light of evolving awareness. Scientifically, this might be called the land of the null hypothesis in which both mistakes and forgiveness are paramount. Then comes the line. If one chooses to cross over it, one will be told one must be very careful, do not proceed as if you can just play or experiment in your actions. Here, it's not about trial-and-error. It's about the Law and if you break the law you will return to the land of mistakes. You are new here. Do not presume to know. Ask before acting. Pay attention. It's a very fine study.

OK, enough said. Hopefully, a resonance will be heard in my tones.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:02 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:01 pm Cleric,

I grok and appreciate your caring cautious views. The false self is full of tricks and traps. Let me add an additional view from what I perceive in liminal initiatory space. Hopefully, it will be received as compatible with and not in opposition to your point-of-view. In deep spiritual work one arrives at a boundary, a crossing over in which everything changes including how one might previously have thought or not thought about it. On one side of the line lies the land of chance and trial-and-error where progress is performed by choice, by making mistakes and eliminating them in the light of evolving awareness. Scientifically, this might be called the land of the null hypothesis in which both mistakes and forgiveness are paramount. Then comes the line. If one chooses to cross over it, one will be told one must be very careful, do not proceed as if you can just play or experiment in your actions. Here, it's not about trial-and-error. It's about the Law and if you break the law you will return to the land of mistakes. You are new here. Do not presume to know. Ask before acting. Pay attention. It's a very fine study.

OK, enough said. Hopefully, a resonance will be heard in my tones.

Hi Lou,

Yes, the Line is very significant. It really signifies an inversion. On one side we feel like a sphere of intelligence floating in a world of chaos. In that view we feel to be on our own. Around us is nothing but the lifeless entropy that threatens to take away even the little life we have. We struggle and fight through trial and error.

Across the Boundary there's an inversion. This inversion is only possible through humility. Then we understand that the Cosmos is weaved of Intelligence far more encompassing than our own. Then it looks as if our intelligence is like a sphere of chaos in the midst of Cosmic Ingeniuity.

For this reason, it's like you say - everything we do has to take the form of prayer, we have to declare our intentions clearly to the Invisible World and listen attentively whether they ring back in resonance or sound like grinding metal. The key however is that we have to act, we have to ask questions, we have to seek guidance. And we can only do that if we continually nourish our high ideal. The higher Intelligence won't simply take us and tell us what to do. This is one of the most important characteristics of our communion with the world of the Spirit - everything that we grasp from that world can be likened to solving a riddle. Nothing comes to us ready made. Even if we have read about it in a book, we still have to discover it for ourselves in its reality, we have to solve a certain puzzle, we need the Eureka moment. We have to rotate our soul organs at certain secret degrees and make the right constellation, then an ancient secret is revealed. The rotation of these organs is not a mechanical work. These are our soul forces. We have to find the secret combination of our soul-dials of Wisdom, Love and Truth. And this is only one riddle of infinitely many. But we can approach these riddles only if we make it our ideal. The solutions are not simply some patterns to entertain our mind - these are living aspects of our evolving being, we unlock something which has formerly prevented the Christ-Sun to act in us.



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Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:19 pm Let's go into more details. What in your view is the soul that evolves? I know the default answer, that it is an expression of the One Consciousness, yet there must be something which makes one expression do the things that you do and another to rob banks for example? What is it that changes as it evolves? Where do you place the soul sheaths and organs of which all esoteric traditions speak? Do they have anything to do with consciousness and its state of evolution or they are only training obstacles appropriate for the corresponding level, which facilitate the development of Consciousness and its hyper structures?

The Universal Cause which filleth all things is the Deity of Jesus, whereof the parts are in such wise tempered to the whole that It is neither whole nor part, and yet is at the same time whole and also part, 77containing in Its all-embracing unity both part and whole, and being transcendent and antecedent to both.212 This Deity is perfect in those Beings that are imperfect as a Fount of Perfection;213 It is Perfectionless214 in those that are perfect as transcending and anticipating their Perfection; It is the Form producing Form in the formless, as a Fount of every form; and it is Formless in the Forms, as being beyond all form; It is the Being that pervades all beings at once though not affected by them;215 and It is Super-Essential, as transcending every being; It sets all bounds of Authority and Order, and yet It has Its seal beyond all Authority and Order.216 It is the Measure of the Universe;217 and it is Eternity, and above Eternity and before Eternity.218 It is an 78Abundance in those Beings that lack, and a Super-Abundance in those that abound; unutterable, ineffable; beyond Mind, beyond Life, beyond Being; It supernaturally possesses the supernatural and super-essentially possesses the super-essential.219 And since that Supra-Divine Being hath in loving kindness come down from thence unto the Natural Estate, and verily took substance and assumed the name of Man (we must speak with reverence of those things which we utter beyond human thought and language), even in this act He possesses His Supernatural and Super-Essential Existence—not only in that He hath without change or confusion of Attributes shared in our human lot while remaining unaffected by that unutterable Self-Emptying as regards the fullness of His Godhead, but also because (most wonderful of all wonders!) He passed in His Supernatural and Super-Essential state through conditions of Nature and Being, and receiving from us all things that are ours, exalted them far above us.

So much for these matters. Now let us proceed to the object of our discussion and endeavour to explain the Common and Undifferenced Names belonging to God’s Differentiated Being.221 And, that the subject of our investigation may be clearly defined beforehand, we give the name of Divine Differentiation 79(as was said) to the beneficent Emanations of the Supreme Godhead.222 For bestowing upon all things and supernally infusing Its Communications unto the goodly Universe, It becomes differentiated without loss of Undifference;223 and multiplied without loss of Unity; from Its Oneness it becomes manifold while yet remaining within Itself. For example, since God is super-essentially Existent and bestows existence upon all things that are, and brings the world into being, that single Existence of His is said to become manifold through bringing forth the many existences from Itself, while yet He remains One in the act of Self-Multiplication; Undifferenced throughout the process of Emanation, and Full in the emptying process of Differentiation; Super-Essentially transcending the Being of all things, and guiding the whole world onwards by an indivisible act, and pouring forth without diminution His indefectible bounties. Yea, being One and communicating of His Unity both unto every part of the world and also unto the whole, both unto that which is one and unto that which is many, He is One in an unchangeable and super-essential manner, being neither an unit in the multiplicity of things nor yet the sum total of such units. Indeed, He is not an unity in this sense, and doth not participate in unity nor possess it;224 but He is an Unity in a manner far 80different from this, above all unity which is in the world; yea, He is an Indivisible Plurality, insatiable yet brim-full, producing, perfecting, and maintaining all unity and plurality. Moreover, since many, through Deification from Him, are made Gods225 (so far as the Godlike capacity of each allows), there thus appears to be what is called a Differentiation226 and a Reduplication of the One God, yet none the less He is the primal God, the Supra-Divine and Super-Essentially One God, who dwells Indivisibly within the separate and individual things, being an Undifferenced Unity in Himself and without any commixture or multiplication through His contact with the Many.227 And supernaturally perceiving this, thus speaketh (by inspiration, in his holy writings) that Guide unto Divine illumination by whom both we and our teacher are led, that mighty man in things Divine, that Luminary of the world. For though (saith he) there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth (as there be gods many and lords many). But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. For in divine things the undifferenced Unities are of more might than the Differentiations228 and hold the foremost place and retain their state of Undifference even after the One has, without departing from Its oneness, entered into Differentiation. These Differentiations or beneficent Emanations of the whole 81Godhead—whereby Its Undifferenced Nature is shared in common229—we shall (so far as in us lies) endeavour to describe from the Divine Names which reveal them in the Scriptures, having now made this clear beforehand (as hath been said): that every Name of the Divine beneficent Activity unto whichever of the Divine Persons it is applied, must be taken as belonging, without distinction, to the whole entirety of the Godhead.

Dionysius the Areopagite, The Divine Names.