Philosophical Speculations

Eugene I wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:23 pm You are always bang on, Dana
And I do the same, with the only difference of the choice of tea: I drink Japanese matcha as a lovely part of my daily Zen practice

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:48 pmSnobs. Coffee here, very black and mostly cold and old.

And here again we have the deeply ingrained idea that there's a separate world outside and beyond our private consciousness. Trust me, if someone claims to know some world 'outside and beyond' I'll be the first to raise a brow! And this is the core problem. The talk about 'proofs' is just dabbling with words, avoiding the root cause.

The only 'proof' is when we discover ideas that bring the disconnected facts into harmony and this harmony turns out to have real practical implications for individual and social life.

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:48 pm Snobs. Coffee here, very black and mostly cold and old.

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:06 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:38 am How can we truly relate to and empathize with others and God if we can never experience their perspectives?

By feeling their pain and joy, in some moderate proportion. Each perspective is Unique, each experience is Unique, for life and love to exist.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:32 am
Well... what can I say. Suddenly all talks about nonduality, it's all one consciousness, the one mind at large, etc., etc. all turn out to be nothing but empty words. The whole talk about the (non-)existence of a self turned out to be a game of words. When things truly approach the crux of the matter, somehow everyone becomes surprisingly individual-bubble-preserving. Everyone has their own justifications. Yet if we really look without prejudice at things, we find the bottom line is always to preserve the inviolability of the personal bubble. "Theoretically" all bubbles are part of the one consciousness but as soon as we approach the real, fully conscious experience of this oneness, the bubbles shudder and close themselves even tighter, as clams. One would much better believe that this real experience of oneness is an illusion because it's considered that the one consciousness is actually unconscious and blindly-instinctive on large scale. Or if the one consciousness is admitted to be conscious it is considered so alien and unbridgeable that for all practical purposes the intellectual self remains fully isolated from it (at least until death). This gives comfort to the bubble. Anything is acceptable as long as it keeps the bubble intact.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:38 pm If we understand this (and it really requires nothing else but sound thinking) we arrive at the next step of the problem. Assuming that we have overcome the artificially held bubble boundaries, we face the following. Now it is entirely up to us to realize that if there are more things to be revealed within the contents of the one consciousness, we need to do something about it. Anyone who has at least some experience of personal development knows that gradually we become conscious of things which up to that moment were completely non-existent - they were unconscious. If we understand this, and we also understand that there are no bubble limits to the one consciousness, we are left with the question "then are there any limits about what can be experientially known within this one consciousness? If all beings share the same conscious space what can stop me to develop the slumbering forces of my soul and spirit, such that I can perceive something of their perspectives?"

And here we arrive at something very different in nature. Now if someone accuses another that such states of consciousness are impossible, this again is not some hard and given knowledge of reality but simply a projection of the fact that they themselves have no experience of such states. This would be the same as if someone who doesn't understand math is to accuse others, who speak in symbols and numbers, to be liars. If we see this in the right light it will turn out that precisely the accusator is being arrogant. Just because they can't do something they believe that no one can. And as I've said so many times, no one asks for believing. The math people would respond to the accusator "No one is asking you to believe. In fact you can never understand our language if you simply 'believe' in it. You have to make it contents of your thinking and then it will become self-evident content of consciousness." It is similar with higher knowledge. At the moment we comprehend that no one is speaking about 'beyond' world but about nothing else than the one conscious experience, all we need is to think things through. By higher knowledge it is not meant knowledge of beyond and outside of consciousness world but knowledge of conscious phenomena that only become experienceable through certain effort. When we speak about mathematics, science, arts, crafts, etc. everyone agrees that these things take time and effort to be mastered. Each of these disciplines adds something to the personal conscious experience that was non-existent prior to that. Yet when the topic becomes spirituality, suddenly people think that they already possess the perfect spiritual equipment to unveil even the deepest secrets of existence. It doesn't occur to them that there may be a need for some gradual process of unfolding not yet developed inner forces. But this is not that surprising when we take into account the kind of spirituality that is being heavily marketed everywhere today. Spirituality is easy! Just empty your mind and there you are - at the grounds of existence! Sadly, humanity has much more to suffer until it finds out the hard way, the difference between the honest and hard work of spiritual development, and blissful ignorance.

Eugene I wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:12 pm

And here again we have the deeply ingrained idea that there's a separate world outside and beyond our private consciousness. Trust me, if someone claims to know some world 'outside and beyond' I'll be the first to raise a brow! And this is the core problem. The talk about 'proofs' is just dabbling with words, avoiding the root cause.

Cleric, it is plain simple. Look at your direct private conscious experience right here and now (including all "nows" of the past). This is all you can ever know and experience. These are all qualia of your direct conscious experience. You and me don't know if anything else exist at all. You can't know even if I exist, same applies to me. Even the "bubble" is an inference, and notice: you were first to talk about the "bubble". All we know and experience is a limitless space of our awareness where conscious phenomena (perceptions, thoughts) appear and disappear, this is it. Everything else we think about reality are only our beliefs, even including the belief that there are "bubbles" and there is anything at all "beyond" the space our private consciousness.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:18 pm

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:06 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:38 am How can we truly relate to and empathize with others and God if we can never experience their perspectives?

By feeling their pain and joy, in some moderate proportion. Each perspective is Unique, each experience is Unique, for life and love to exist.

Do you think it is possible, in principle, for each unique perspective to access a truly shared set of thoughts, feelings, etc?

Cleric K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:38 pm Yet when the topic becomes spirituality, suddenly people think that they already possess the perfect spiritual equipment to unveil even the deepest secrets of existence.