Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 1:42 pm Ok, and of course, I don't think the above is a great way to interpret what he is saying, but even so, I don't think it answers the question. The being of Anthroposophy, which we could say is closely related to Michael-Sophia, is obviously not an organization. As you say, it is not the same as the Anthroposophical Society. It is not the manifested form of any organization and its structure, and neither is 'the Tradition' in VT's sense. The Akashic record is the superposition of the imploded World state, the invisible movements that were 'layered over' one another in the course of involution, and which we retrace in evolution. Even our ordinary memory faculty is 'accessing the Akashic record' in a narrowed sense. These inner movements do not live thanks to the organizations that embodied them over the epochs. We gain a better sense of this dynamic if we consider Cleric's recent hermit crab analogy - "we need to distinguish the vibrant spiritual life from the husks it leaves behind." The Tradition is the former, the organizations are the latter. If we consider VT's indications impartially, without layering on our own commentary, we cannot help but see that he is speaking of these core phenomenological foundations.


Right, the Being of Anthroposophy is not - archi obviously - the manifested form of any organization (when will you lose your habit of stating things as if I had opposed them?) It's the other way around: earthly organizations such as the ones envisioned by Steiner are/will be the manifested form of that Being. Also right, for VT the being of Anthroposophy is not what he calls tradition. For him, the being of Anthroposophy is the angel of death. What he calls tradition is expressed here:
the situation of esoteric historicism is at present such that one cannot swear by any particular work; here, also, collective work is necessary from generation to generation—i.e. a living tradition, where each continues the work of his predecessors, by confirming the truth, filling in the gaps, and correcting errors of interpretation or vision.

that is, the tradition of esotericists that complete and perfect one another's reading of the Records. That he refers to the phenomenological foundations of reality with the word "Tradition" is your added commentary. But even so, what stands out is that:


1. He's unequivocally against the being of Anthroposophy (or any other being) to find expression in earthly organizations - the ones that Steiner points to as one of his warmest wishes, for the evolution of humanity to take place in the right way.

2. He indicates the RCC as the only exception, the only place for organizing spiritual life on Earth, living the rest to personal certainty and intimate society of unknown friends (the representatives of Tradition) who are not supposed to share their true strivings and findings with the organized world, because that would kill their living tradition of Akashic reading.
We see the shadow of the Roman Empire in Roman Catholicism.
This is not Christianity; it is the shadow of the ancient Roman Empire into which Christianity had to be born.
Rudolf Steiner
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AshvinP
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 2:31 pm But even so, what stands out is that:


1. He's unequivocally against the being of Anthroposophy (or any other being) to find expression in earthly organizations - the ones that Steiner points to as one of his warmest wishes, for the evolution of humanity to take place in the right way.


This is simply unfamiliarity with VT speaking. The deeper consideration is that, in the sense of Knowledge of Higher Worlds, we can only gain an orientation to such individualities and their works if we approach them with a certain degree of humility and reverence, and also patience in condensing our unequivocal judgments. All too often, we forsake the process of attuning our inner activity to such a lofty being as Anthroposophy in the name of 'defending' her against her perceived enemies, thereby missing how this Being can adorn many expressive husks. We then selectively ignore some expressions, zoom into others, add our commentary, and so on, all in the name of rationally preserving the perceived opposition within supersensible dynamics. Because, as Cleric also illustrated before with the arcane asanas, VT's work is entirely meant to stimulate a higher, supersensible vantage point that brings the pinhole of inversion into clear focus. It is not about comparing and contrasting two seemingly 'competing' imploded manifestations of the Tradition, but retracing and renewing the unified Tradition through our entirely new creative efforts.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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AshvinP
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:27 pm But now, when after this catalyzing event has taken place, those who preach the 5th Gospel (another reason why 5th Tarot Card is the Pope) will not refer to themselves as who they know themselves to be - namely, "Johns". For, not referring to oneself is at once a Christian sacrifice, the only way of spreading the Good News, and the only way for the flock to hear the Shepherd's voice. Valentin Tomberg-Unknown has shown this to us.
Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with this, but I am reading a book called "Unveiling the Mystery of Dante" by an anthroposophist named Bisbocci. In it, he discusses how the esoteric community that Dante belonged to and the Divine Comedy utilized something similar to this method that you are describing to operate underneath the radar of the Catholic Church and point toward supersensible realities that can be experienced. Here is a quote from the book:

The success of the Fideli de Amor in deceiving the Inquisition and the "Gente Grossa" lay in their ability to construct, through allegory, a jargon that would often connote a meaning opposite to that suggested.... Although the implicit connections between thinkers such as Rossetti, Pasquale, and Valle have not always been systematically delineated, those connections exist by virtue of the fact that they each intuitively partook in what Dante called the "anagogic" meaning of his works, namely, a meaning not easily fathomed by purely sense-based consciousness and elucidated by dialectical explications. Positivistic thinking is, by nature, precluded from fathoming the deeper levels of esoteric thought underlying Dante's Comedy because of its incapacity to perceive the inner dynamics of consciousness, as we have shown. Furthermore, positivistic thinking only gives credence to what can be systematically categorized, a categorization often not conducive to esoteric thought. Just as Dante himself states that there exists a level of cognitive experience responsible for the manifestation of the ineffable vision of the Divine Comedy, so too it is only by means of such cognition that the meaning of his work can be fully grasped.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is mostly in this sense that you feel the Good News can be spread in our time, just as Dante tried to spread something of that News at the dawn of the consciousness soul. Just like with Dante, you feel that this is the only way to fly under the radar of the Church and still be effective in reaching those souls within its undeniably large sphere of activity. Is that about right?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 2:11 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:27 pm But now, when after this catalyzing event has taken place, those who preach the 5th Gospel (another reason why 5th Tarot Card is the Pope) will not refer to themselves as who they know themselves to be - namely, "Johns". For, not referring to oneself is at once a Christian sacrifice, the only way of spreading the Good News, and the only way for the flock to hear the Shepherd's voice. Valentin Tomberg-Unknown has shown this to us.
Rodriel,

I wonder if it might be helpful for all involved if we simulated a scenario in this respect. We can take it out of the domain of religion and instead place it in the domain of current scientific institutions. For example, let's say we cross paths with a soul like Michael Levin, who is heavily interested and invested in exploring the Platonic space of cognitive agents and their invisible patterns, which can be leveraged for technological aims and practical ideals. I keep using him as an example because I think we all probably agree that he, more than most other public intellectuals, is attempting to bring into focus the pinhole of the consciousness soul from quite a different direction than the esoteric path. He may be quite primed to receive some helpful indications from unknown friends, if given the opportunity. We all probably also agree that it would do no good to initially hit him with lectures from Steiner or a bunch of esoteric jargon, even if we already perceive the great overlap between their intuitions. So, what would it look like, from your perspective, to act as an unknown friend and spread the Good News to him, if you had the opportunity? Would an institution like the Church have any helpful sway in a scenario like this one?
Here's a very rough gloss of the trajectory Levin would need to be taken through:

"Dear esteemed Dr. Levin,

You are poised at the precipice of a great turning point in the history of scientific mankind. Through your intrepid, trailblazing work, you are reopening the doors to the invisible world which sits at the foundation of the empirical world of sensory observation. Your experiments show clearly that this invisible world is teaming with universal (nonlocalized) agencies that direct and account for the particular activities of isolated empirical phenomena. In this sense you are returning the wisdom of pagan antiquity to public consciousness.

Are you unaware, however, that this pagan wisdom has died and been raised in the I AM made flesh ? The Platonic world of Ideas is not a realm of discarnate patterns but of spiritual beings, whose angelic knowledge-as-deed constitutes the spiritual foundation of the patterns you find in your thinking. It is only by passing through to a deeper understanding of the nature of spirit that you will come to know the true essence of the agency in the "agentic processes" you are discovering. In other words, you must come to understand the nature of personhood, which is the locus of the free spiritual activity you have glimpsed as mere "patterns."

As you can rise to this new height, you will regain a feeling for your own humanity. You must discover the radical freedom that undergirds your movement through the world and your very existence itself. You will find that this is precisely the humanity upon which the entire Western world is founded but which now teeters on the brink of total collapse, held up only by the flimsy apparatus of positivist legal systems. Having regained a comprehension of the dignity of the human person (the incarnated I AM), you will then do well to become a friend of the Universal Law of the human person, which is housed in the Catholic Church and which protects and upholds the dignity of humanity, serving as a North Star for all human activity. Not least among these human activities, of course, is your important research, which - if it should avert its gaze from that Star - will unleash forces into the world that will evacuate it of the I AM, turning it into a silicon graveyard.

Will you take up the call to boldly claim your work for the good of humanity?

Sincerely,
A group of friends who support you"
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Rodriel Gabrez »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 4:49 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:27 pm But now, when after this catalyzing event has taken place, those who preach the 5th Gospel (another reason why 5th Tarot Card is the Pope) will not refer to themselves as who they know themselves to be - namely, "Johns". For, not referring to oneself is at once a Christian sacrifice, the only way of spreading the Good News, and the only way for the flock to hear the Shepherd's voice. Valentin Tomberg-Unknown has shown this to us.
Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with this, but I am reading a book called "Unveiling the Mystery of Dante" by an anthroposophist named Bisbocci. In it, he discusses how the esoteric community that Dante belonged to and the Divine Comedy utilized something similar to this method that you are describing to operate underneath the radar of the Catholic Church and point toward supersensible realities that can be experienced. Here is a quote from the book:

The success of the Fideli de Amor in deceiving the Inquisition and the "Gente Grossa" lay in their ability to construct, through allegory, a jargon that would often connote a meaning opposite to that suggested.... Although the implicit connections between thinkers such as Rossetti, Pasquale, and Valle have not always been systematically delineated, those connections exist by virtue of the fact that they each intuitively partook in what Dante called the "anagogic" meaning of his works, namely, a meaning not easily fathomed by purely sense-based consciousness and elucidated by dialectical explications. Positivistic thinking is, by nature, precluded from fathoming the deeper levels of esoteric thought underlying Dante's Comedy because of its incapacity to perceive the inner dynamics of consciousness, as we have shown. Furthermore, positivistic thinking only gives credence to what can be systematically categorized, a categorization often not conducive to esoteric thought. Just as Dante himself states that there exists a level of cognitive experience responsible for the manifestation of the ineffable vision of the Divine Comedy, so too it is only by means of such cognition that the meaning of his work can be fully grasped.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is mostly in this sense that you feel the Good News can be spread in our time, just as Dante tried to spread something of that News at the dawn of the consciousness soul. Just like with Dante, you feel that this is the only way to fly under the radar of the Church and still be effective in reaching those souls within its undeniably large sphere of activity. Is that about right?
Yes, that's about right. But the situation now is effectively quite different due to Steiner's public spectacle, which I am arguing (following Tomberg) was a highly concentrated, one-time impulse that must be pointed to subtly by those who take up the further development of the stream. The justification for this view screams silently at us from the pages of the Gospel of John (the Gospel of the initiator of Rudolf Steiner).

That book looks fascinating, by the way. I will order it!
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:27 pm ... who [John] incarnates through the centuries, spiraling around the stream of Peter until the two streams merge in the event that constitutes the morphological transition into the next aeon. Lazarus-John indeed saw these things, describing them in profound images, on the island of Patmos when he was delivered the Revelation of the coming of future Jupiter.
This is really the thing that we must focus on, and where I think your and VT's vision significantly diverges from that of the other Christian streams. If this is what it sounds like, it is the same as what I proposed as one of the possibilities earlier: that higher spiritual knowledge is not strictly needed for the general Earth population (and it is an optional private concern for those who feel up to the task) to reach the next aeon through the Event of the morphological transition. Only after that Event, higher knowledge becomes truly relevant (only then John and Peter merge). But before that, all that is needed is for souls to be brought to the Event with sharpened pinholes. As said, this explains why we can be completely content even if the Church keeps teaching the one-life doctrine all the way up to the last minute. And it's fine even if in these final moments the Church would still be prosecuting the Johns, who would still keep a low profile, just like Dante in the example above.

So we can summarize this to a question: would the Earth aeon achieve its goal through the Church governing the World up to the final moments before the Event, even if at that time it still excludes higher spiritual knowledge in its teachings and all focus is on sharpening the pinhole through which Christ-conscience should flow (which is practically compatible with the one-life idea and all other dogmas)?
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Federica
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 3:32 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 2:31 pm But even so, what stands out is that:


1. He's unequivocally against the being of Anthroposophy (or any other being) to find expression in earthly organizations - the ones that Steiner points to as one of his warmest wishes, for the evolution of humanity to take place in the right way.

This is simply unfamiliarity with VT speaking. The deeper consideration is that, in the sense of Knowledge of Higher Worlds, we can only gain an orientation to such individualities and their works if we approach them with a certain degree of humility and reverence, and also patience in condensing our unequivocal judgments. All too often, we forsake the process of attuning our inner activity to such a lofty being as Anthroposophy in the name of 'defending' her against her perceived enemies, thereby missing how this Being can adorn many expressive husks. We then selectively ignore some expressions, zoom into others, add our commentary, and so on, all in the name of rationally preserving the perceived opposition within supersensible dynamics. Because, as Cleric also illustrated before with the arcane asanas, VT's work is entirely meant to stimulate a higher, supersensible vantage point that brings the pinhole of inversion into clear focus. It is not about comparing and contrasting two seemingly 'competing' imploded manifestations of the Tradition, but retracing and renewing the unified Tradition through our entirely new creative efforts.


I surely admit unfamiliarity with VT works, but are you then in agreement with Rodriel that at times one must intend in his prose quite the opposite of what it says? It must be so, otherwise there's not much one can do with expressions such as: "For the tradition lives not thanks to organisations, but in spite of them. One should content oneself purely and simply with friendship in order to preserve the life of a tradition; it should not be entrusted to the care of the embalmers and mummifiers par excellence that organisations are." other than understanding them as I did.


Regarding the Being of Anthroposophy, it can surely adorn many expressive husks, I agree! And let me underline "many", which normally means "not only one"? That is, I am afraid, the opposite of what VT contended, admitting that "opposite" is still a conceivable word in your lofty language of attunement to the Unity of everything? Though there should be no Inquisition around here, hopefully, so I guess we don't need to train subtlety of expression to the point that everything and its opposite can fit the meaning of your every sentence. On the contrary, as Steiner said even in the Fifth Gospel, it's important to strive for clarity, and to use words at face value as much as possible, rather than playing with the elation of encoding and decoding (I would add), lofty inversions of meaning, and similar plays of nuancing and unifying ad infinitum.
We see the shadow of the Roman Empire in Roman Catholicism.
This is not Christianity; it is the shadow of the ancient Roman Empire into which Christianity had to be born.
Rudolf Steiner
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AshvinP
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 5:55 pm Yes, that's about right. But the situation now is effectively quite different due to Steiner's public spectacle, which I am arguing (following Tomberg) was a highly concentrated, one-time impulse that must be pointed to subtly by those who take up the further development of the stream. The justification for this view screams silently at us from the pages of the Gospel of John (the Gospel of the initiator of Rudolf Steiner).

That book looks fascinating, by the way. I will order it!

Thanks for sharing the proposed letter to Levin. I will contemplate that some more and circle back on it.

As you know, I share many of the same concerns that Cleric is expressing with respect to this more purposefully veiled approach to the symbolic communications. But I do also see that a distinction can be made.

On the one hand, if we take the example of the one-life dogma that Cleric is referring to, we can observe that the Church will continue to teach that idea for the foreseeable future. In that case, you may say that we should still have something to offer those Church-affiliated souls who are interested in deeper questions and are working on refining the intellect, but also feel it is practically impossible to directly approach something like the higher knowledge of reincarnation. That is where the Dante approach comes in and provides a subtle, 'silent' way of stirring the germinal forces such that the soul becomes more and more receptive over time. I think it is practically undeniable that this will be the case, and that most of us agree that there's no need to banish these alternative ways of engaging with such souls in the name of "Steiner's wishes", "the Anthroposophical method", or anything similar. Not only we don't banish them, but we should be actively seeking them out and cultivating them, such as we do here.

On the other hand, the observation of what will continue to happen in this respect can be transformed into what should happen and what should be somehow reinforced through our efforts. In other words, we say that we would see the Church as completely regressive if it were to somehow adapt and transform its central dogmas, thus making its sphere of activity more conducive to a direct (spiritual scientific) metamorphosis of souls through the pinhole. We start to feel like we really need a 'separation of concerns' to maintain itself right up until the Event, which finally brings living unity to spirituality and science across the Earthly landscape. Then our idea of the Christ impulse is to do whatever we can to ensure such a state is maintained until something signifies to us otherwise. Such a stance is clearly problematic from my perspective, but I'm not sure if that's what you are pointing to, or rather, it is mostly the former.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Rodriel Gabrez »

Cleric wrote: Tue Oct 21, 2025 6:53 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:27 pm ... who [John] incarnates through the centuries, spiraling around the stream of Peter until the two streams merge in the event that constitutes the morphological transition into the next aeon. Lazarus-John indeed saw these things, describing them in profound images, on the island of Patmos when he was delivered the Revelation of the coming of future Jupiter.
This is really the thing that we must focus on, and where I think your and VT's vision significantly diverges from that of the other Christian streams. If this is what it sounds like, it is the same as what I proposed as one of the possibilities earlier: that higher spiritual knowledge is not strictly needed for the general Earth population (and it is an optional private concern for those who feel up to the task) to reach the next aeon through the Event of the morphological transition. Only after that Event, higher knowledge becomes truly relevant (only then John and Peter merge). But before that, all that is needed is for souls to be brought to the Event with sharpened pinholes. As said, this explains why we can be completely content even if the Church keeps teaching the one-life doctrine all the way up to the last minute. And it's fine even if in these final moments the Church would still be prosecuting the Johns, who would still keep a low profile, just like Dante in the example above.

So we can summarize this to a question: would the Earth aeon achieve its goal through the Church governing the World up to the final moments before the Event, even if at that time it still excludes higher spiritual knowledge in its teachings and all focus is on sharpening the pinhole through which Christ-conscience should flow (which is practically compatible with the one-life idea and all other dogmas)?
What I have referred to as an Event is of course actually a gradually unfolding process, whereby the higher spiritual knowledge you speak of becomes increasingly widespread within Peter's flock through their Johnification. The "sharpening of the pinhole" isn't some delayed arrival of a future sudden transition but is continuously accompanied by the shared, communicated knowledge entering in through the pinhole. That the communication sounds different coming from John than from Lazarus seems to be the main point of contention here. And this is understandable. Christ Jesus himself wept at the death of Lazarus.

The vision is of a Church consisting increasingly of Johns. Why would the Church of Peter-become-John persecute a flock of Johns? Additionally, what would be the point of teaching a mineralized (outwardly verifiable) version of reincarnation when it is collectively understood through the language of personal certainty?
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 10:10 pm Rodriel, in your biographical notes - thank you for sharing them - you have described the duality in your path in these terms: "The task was to expose certain elements of spiritual reality to the extent that a person was open to and ready to hear them, going deeper than what is comfortable but leaving certain things that would otherwise lead to a total rejection mysterious". Today you make it clear that this duality is not just a secondary or consequential aspect, but the core lying at the foundation of this veiled path that you have crafted for yourself. In this path, the jubilation of consistent deciphering of every message within the secretly luminous plan, in a way that remains impenetrable to the many, becomes the token for the achievement of freedom. But free human attainment can't consist of passing a special test, quietly dispensed by Valentin Tomberg. Freedom is not about deciphering for oneself a new Hermetic code, ascending to rethorical vantage points where conceptual lead is transformed into living gold, and discursive meanings into their very opposite.

Freedom isn't a matter of deciphering, but of working out the divine essence in oneself so that the personality can be disciplined and reorganized. Your idea of freedom within Valentin Tomberg's secret circle of friends is incompatible with the pursuit of the virtues, and Divine will. You say: "If you tell someone exactly how to achieve a certain goal, then its attainment is not entirely free" and you are entirely wrong in that. You would be right if the task were intellectual. Then indeed, having someone telling you the keys would deprive you from freely finding the solution for yourself. But there are no keys to guarantee the development of the consciouness soul. Only I can do it for myself, and only you can do it for yourself, and the clear indications we may receive, and need to receive, detract nothing, not even an ounce, from our freedom if we do it. Instead, they add to the virtue of everyone involved, while realizing the Divine will.

I invite you to reconsider this entire trajectory, Rodriel. See the elation of secret deciphering for what it is, resume the spiritual exercises instead of diving into more rethorical readings to fuel more elation, free yourself from these impediments on the veiled path, and unveil your destiny.
I appreciate your concern. But what appears to you as "the elation of secret deciphering" is in fact the death of thinking on the Cross of sensory perception. "Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him!" (Matt. 27:42), the bystanders shouted. Let us instead allow the sacrifice of the salvation of the earth sphere, saying, "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom" (Luke 23:42). Having thus witnessed the Crucifixion, let us then follow in the footsteps of the one whom Jesus loved, who reclined upon the Lord's breast at table, and whose sickness was not unto death but to the glory of God.
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