Philosophical Speculations

Cleric K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:15 pm Other than that, I hope you don’t find the discussion following your initial post, as a rude welcome to the forum, as if your effort is demeaned. In fact, the topics that you bring up are precisely the kind that can lead further and further. Most other less fruitful topics of the kind “What is alter?”, “Is MAL metacognitive?” and so on, never go further than empty abstract speculation. It is in this context that you should see the responses from Federica and Ashvin. We should really try to find the living bridge between thinking in concepts and higher intuition if humanity is not to remain torn between the sensory spectrum coupled with intellect and the higher worlds. Humanity’s survival in the most literal sense depends on consciousness growing into the depth of reality. There are so many things that should be worked upon but the transformation of thinking, even though not remotely enough in itself, is vital if higher realities are to be grasped with clear cognition, instead of becoming sources of fantasy.
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Basically we can use this metaphor as a map of where the conversations in this forum are located. A lot of them are simply patchworks over the expanded cognitive sphere, which simply has no chance of folding without breaking in pieces. In this sense, looking at that map, the responses of Federica and Ashvin should be taken as pointing attention to the folding process. They are not impulsive opposition (even if it may have looked like this to you) but attempt to lead the concepts into this folding process and test what can survive the implosion and what not. We should always remember that these attempts do not aim to build some finished and packaged theory of vertical cognition. This would be a gross misunderstanding of the whole endeavor. We’re merely learning to take our upright position and speak. In one way or another conceptual language should be developed through which we can freely breathe along the depth axis and share our discoveries in the same way we can speak about mathematics, pain or joy. The broad outlines of this language have been given by exceptional individualities that through the ages are always the heralds of new impulses that are to be accommodated in the evolution of humanity. Our humble job is to simply continue and refine that work, such that the intellect can breathe freely and spiritual reality can become to us a shared experience, just like we accept the sensory world to unite us in a shared experience.

It might be of interest for you to take a look at something written a while ago. There a different metaphor is used – a ship and a vortex – but the idea is the same. It will be interesting to me to hear your thoughts.

I actually welcome my ideas being criticized and scrutinized, in fact this is how it should be done in natural and spiritual science and philosophy. The challenge is to view the topic not from the level of abstract, dualistic and binary-logical thinking which usually runs in some sort of contradiction or paradox in one way or another, but try to stay at the higher-level intuition rooted in the first-person spiritual experience where the seeming abstract paradoxes can usually get resolved.

Regarding my opinions or participation in other topics of this forum, those topics are certainly important and there is a lot of work to be done in the area of spiritual science and philosophy, but I do philosophy only sporadically these days so my participation on this forum will likely be very limited. But speaking about the post that you pointed to, I enjoyed the reding, it's a very good metaphorical description of the interconnectedness of all states in the totality of the universe of Consciousness, including retro-causal beyond-time interferences between states which naturally aligns with the idea of the self-causality of the reality of Consciousness as a whole.

Echoing today’s remark by Cleric about the tenor of my comments to Stranger’s theory - tenor that clearly pertains to my comments only - I admit that I have written them from a place of irritation that, beyond being inappropriate to fruitful dialogue in general, has inevitably biased my viewpoint and reaction to the theory in the thread. I regret that weakness, and I apologize to you, Stranger, for that.

In conclusion, on my part, the main issue for me is how the metaphysical thinking tool is not well adapted to the Cosmic questions we seek to answer today. The patchwork of intellectual concepts within our current mental sphere (in the sense of Cleric's last metaphor) is so loose that it can combine itself together in infinitely many forms to encompass deeper intuitions, and while in the process of so encompassing (which amounts to reducing), works counter-productively with respect to the questions it seeks to resolve.

Definition of resolve (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb

1a: to deal with successfully : clear up
resolve doubts
resolve a dispute
b: to find an answer to
c: to make clear or understandable

Stranger wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:19 pm 1. The problem of prime cause is obviously resolved: the MAL creates the cause of its own existence by creating the process of its own evolution from the primitive instinctive state into the final omniscient state.

2. The question in idealism whether or not the MAL is metacognitive and even omniscient (aka “God” in the theological idealist paradigm) is resolved, and the answer is that it is both non-metacognitive in its original state and highly metacognitive in its final state of evolution through time.

3. The problem of suffering and evil is resolved.

4. Based on #3, this paradigm also gives a meaning and justification for our human suffering and a sense of purpose for our human life.

As Cleric said, I am not quoting this to nitpick your model, but to point towards a shared mindset most modern people have when investigating these questions. After all the discussion on this thread, I am sure you would agree "resolve" was not the right word to use in the above list. In no sense has the patchwork conceptual model resolved the 'problem of suffering and evil', for ex. Such a resolution would really live in the experience of the pre-Edenic state when our eyes were not open to suffering or evil, but this time in the proactive bringing about of that state with our eyes fully open. Clearly humanity has a long way to go for that - each individual has their vertical thinking (and feeling-willing) work cut out - and a major risk of metaphysical thinking on these issues is that one will no longer be motivated to resolve experientially what is already felt to be resolved conceptually. Why break into pieces a 'perfectly good' patchwork if it has resolved so many deep problems? It's similar with the materialist scientist who looks at all modern technological development and asks, why pursue a 'spiritual science' when the secular science we have resolves so many problems in the 'real world' and promises to continue doing so? So I think we really need to pay close attention to this intellectual tendency, as well as the deeper soul forces Cleric mentioned which serve to reinforce the tendency, remembering that every new model is like a coat of intellectual armor which we will be very reluctant to take off once we have gotten used to it.

Federica wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:43 pm Echoing today’s remark by Cleric about the tenor of my comments to Stranger’s theory - tenor that clearly pertains to my comments only - I admit that I have written them from a place of irritation that, beyond being inappropriate to fruitful dialogue in general, has inevitably biased my viewpoint and reaction to the theory in the thread. I regret that weakness, and I apologize to you, Stranger, for that.

No worries, Federica, we all can still learn valuable lessons even from this kind of criticism coming from limited perspectives of places of confrontation or irritation.

Since we got into the apologizing mode, I have to make a confession: I'm a former member Eugene I. I lost my access to my older accounts, so I started from scratch as a new member Stranger. I went through a period of spiritual transformation over the last year that changed my views on many topics, including philosophical views and the Steiner's philosophy in particular where I now see a lot of value and truth in it. Recalling our history of heated debates and opposition on this forum, I wanted to clear the karma that I created and apologize, particularly to Dana, Cleric and Ashvin, for any wrongdoings and wrong wordings, and thank them for opening to me the new horizons in the spiritual philosophy. On the other hand, I still hold the nondual vision or reality rooted in my first-person spiritual experience which is now naturally melded with the vertically-hierarchical perspective, and so I do not see any contradiction between the nondual and anthroposophical paradigms and experiences anymore and I believe that they complement each other and perfectly align with each other when viewed and understood correctly from a higher-level all-inclusive perspective. I'm still not planning to actively participate in this forum as I want to focus on my spiritual practice, I only wanted to share this hypothesis of self-causality for anyone who wants to explore it.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:21 pm As Cleric said, I am not quoting this to nitpick your model, but to point towards a shared mindset most modern people have when investigating these questions. After all the discussion on this thread, I am sure you would agree "resolve" was not the right word to use in the above list. In no sense has the patchwork conceptual model resolved the 'problem of suffering and evil', for ex. Such a resolution would really live in the experience of the pre-Edenic state when our eyes were not open to suffering or evil, but this time in the proactive bringing about of that state with our eyes fully open. Clearly humanity has a long way to go for that - each individual has their vertical thinking (and feeling-willing) work cut out - and a major risk of metaphysical thinking on these issues is that one will no longer be motivated to resolve experientially what is already felt to be resolved conceptually. Why break into pieces a 'perfectly good' patchwork if it has resolved so many deep problems? It's similar with the materialist scientist who looks at all modern technological development and asks, why pursue a 'spiritual science' when the secular science we have resolves so many problems in the 'real world' and promises to continue doing so? So I think we really need to pay close attention to this intellectual tendency, as well as the deeper soul forces Cleric mentioned which serve to reinforce the tendency, remembering that every new model is like a coat of intellectual armor which we will be very reluctant to take off once we have gotten used to it.

I agree with that and that's why I'm trying now to abstain from philosophical discourse and I see how hard and almost impossible it is to adequately translate the intuitions and experiences of spiritual realities into the language of conceptual human mind rooted in dualistic perception and egoic bubble. It requires a development of new ways of conveying those truths, but I confess that I'm personally just not up to this challenge and not able to do it adequately. I clearly see that all the language and conceptual palette that I have accumulated over my lifetime based on my previous background in natural sciences and philosophy are totally inadequate for conveying the truths of higher spiritual reality, and any attempts would lead only to confusion, as you rightly pointed in your criticism of my 1-4 "resolutions". This is not to say that this task is impossible, and I can see that Cleric is able to do that quite successfully, but for me that's an impossible endeavor, and so this is why I now would prefer to stay away from such debates.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:37 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:21 pm As Cleric said, I am not quoting this to nitpick your model, but to point towards a shared mindset most modern people have when investigating these questions. After all the discussion on this thread, I am sure you would agree "resolve" was not the right word to use in the above list. In no sense has the patchwork conceptual model resolved the 'problem of suffering and evil', for ex. Such a resolution would really live in the experience of the pre-Edenic state when our eyes were not open to suffering or evil, but this time in the proactive bringing about of that state with our eyes fully open. Clearly humanity has a long way to go for that - each individual has their vertical thinking (and feeling-willing) work cut out - and a major risk of metaphysical thinking on these issues is that one will no longer be motivated to resolve experientially what is already felt to be resolved conceptually. Why break into pieces a 'perfectly good' patchwork if it has resolved so many deep problems? It's similar with the materialist scientist who looks at all modern technological development and asks, why pursue a 'spiritual science' when the secular science we have resolves so many problems in the 'real world' and promises to continue doing so? So I think we really need to pay close attention to this intellectual tendency, as well as the deeper soul forces Cleric mentioned which serve to reinforce the tendency, remembering that every new model is like a coat of intellectual armor which we will be very reluctant to take off once we have gotten used to it.

I agree with that and that's why I'm trying now to abstain from philosophical discourse and I see how hard and almost impossible it is to adequately translate the intuitions and experiences of spiritual realities into the language of conceptual human mind rooted in dualistic perception and egoic bubble. It requires a development of new ways of conveying those truths, but I confess that I'm personally just not up to this challenge and not able to do it adequately. I clearly see that all the language and conceptual palette that I have accumulated over my lifetime based on my previous background in natural sciences and philosophy are totally inadequate for conveying the truths of higher spiritual reality, and any attempts would lead only to confusion, as you rightly pointed in your criticism of my 1-4 "resolutions". This is not to say that this task is impossible, and I can see that Cleric is able to do that quite successfully, but for me that's an impossible endeavor, and so this is why I now would prefer to stay away from such debates.

I struggle with this as well, even if it doesn't seem that way. It's not easy to know when it's best to forego the conceptual analysis of these deep spiritual ideas-experiences and remain silent for the time being, especially if one is fond of intellectual analysis and communication of one's insights/conclusions, as I am. To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest we should just stop trying to conceptually understand the problem of suffering/evil if we can't encompass it with a metaphysical model or acquire an experiential state of non-suffering. We can greatly deepen our living appreciation of why such states of being exist, i.e. what purposes they serve in our evolving microcosmic-macrocosmic experience, even without occult knowledge. But we should be clear that, on the esoteric path Cleric, Federica, and I often speak about with you, the deeper spiritual experience and the ability to crystallize such experiences into communicable concepts, metaphors, etc. - not only to others, but to ourselves - should eventually converge. If they don't, then this is feedback that we have stalled somewhere along the way and should reevaluate our method. This is a big difference with the traditional 'nondual' approach, and I know you are aware of our position on that. It's clear to me that your understanding of 'thinking as spiritual activity' has indeed been greatly enriched over the intervening months, so I hope you also take notice of that and there's no reason why it can't grow even more.

I've really appreciated the tone of the dialog in this thread and offer a deep bow of gratitude toward all involved.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:13 pm I've really appreciated the tone of the dialog in this thread and offer a deep bow of gratitude toward all involved.

Lou, I also want to express my gratitude to you as you showed me the way to the Divine Mother, and it was She who helped me with my transformation and healing.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:53 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:13 pm I've really appreciated the tone of the dialog in this thread and offer a deep bow of gratitude toward all involved.

Lou, I also want to express my gratitude to you as you showed me the way to the Divine Mother, and it was She who helped me with my transformation and healing.

Well, my brother Eugene, that surely brought a tear to my eyes and a warmth to my heart. Praise be given to the Queen.

I've found that standing under (understanding) Her mantle of light brings us into the realm where there are no strangers but only relatives in the Divinity. Hard to describe or model but surely palpable and healing, a gift to hold dear more than a mystery to resolve. So be it and much blessing on your way.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:50 pm But speaking about the post that you pointed to, I enjoyed the reding, it's a very good metaphorical description of the interconnectedness of all states in the totality of the universe of Consciousness, including retro-causal beyond-time interferences between states which naturally aligns with the idea of the self-causality of the reality of Consciousness as a whole.

Thanks for the feedback, Eugene.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no need for apology. The heated debates were and continue to be a treasure for me because they were practical exercises that kept me searching again and again for new angles of rendition of deeper intuitions. But it turned out these renditions had much greater importance than I could have anticipated. For example, thanks to a few things that I have read about twenty years ago, my thinking could break from the plane of abstractions and experience itself along the depth/vertical axis of the Time hierarchy. This experience remains with me to this day but only gradually I understood that the general intuition has to be worked upon and traced into the full spectrum of reality. I can put that in a musical metaphor. Very early in our life we may discover the general intuition of musical beauty. But we know how limiting it would be if we say "this general intuition is enough for me, casting it down into imperfect sensory musical forms can never capture the total essence of this intuition so it's better to refrain from that." What is missed in this way is that this general intuition, no matter how magnificent it is, is still only a blurry shadow of a whole World. When this World becomes a source of inspiration for us, a living force on the waves of which our spirit vibrates, this mysterious world is projected in sensory forms. Of course, these forms can never capture the infinite nature of that world but nevertheless they begin to probe its potential. In this way our general intuition begins to attain high resolution cognitive texture. The musical forms reveal the lawfulness of rhythm, melody and harmony. At this point we already know how blind we would be if we chose to remain with the vague general feeling of Divine musicality, which however never finds its reflection in the full spectrum of phenomena.

The same thing can be said for our existence as a whole. The exercises that this forum provided to me were not simply endless variations of words that express the same general idea that I knew anyway. Instead, every exercise opens completely new doors, new channels are plumbed, living water begins to flow where previously there was none. Yes, the general intuition from 20 years ago is still here but has now grown into a living spiritual reality. This happens not by some magic trick but by the gradual attunement of perception and cognition such that every phenomena from our field of consciousness becomes meaningful in the light of that intuition, and which in turn becomes a whole detailed ideal world reflected in everything.

"And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." This ladder is within each one of us. It is this vertical axis of being, the Hoberman sphere breathing. If we have a religious disposition, the ladder is first only a concept that we feel refers to something we believe is real. Then it grows into a grand image in the soul, then we find it as the depth reality of our spiritual being extending into the Cosmos. In a certain sense we can then say "I knew this, I felt it even when it was a mere concept in my mind, yet it could grow into full blown reality only in the course of time, after many transformations of my being." For this reason I'm tremendously grateful to everyone on this forum because even if it may sound as if I'm simply lecturing some prefabricated concepts, in fact every post has been for me a quest into new domains, new corridors and chambers of the living being of the Cosmos.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:37 pm I agree with that and that's why I'm trying now to abstain from philosophical discourse and I see how hard and almost impossible it is to adequately translate the intuitions and experiences of spiritual realities into the language of conceptual human mind rooted in dualistic perception and egoic bubble. It requires a development of new ways of conveying those truths, but I confess that I'm personally just not up to this challenge and not able to do it adequately. I clearly see that all the language and conceptual palette that I have accumulated over my lifetime based on my previous background in natural sciences and philosophy are totally inadequate for conveying the truths of higher spiritual reality, and any attempts would lead only to confusion, as you rightly pointed in your criticism of my 1-4 "resolutions". This is not to say that this task is impossible, and I can see that Cleric is able to do that quite successfully, but for me that's an impossible endeavor, and so this is why I now would prefer to stay away from such debates.

Here we can remember: "And he said: The things which are impossible with men are possible with God". There's a being deep in our heart world that is million degrees hot. As its fiery spiritual activity descends from the realm of Light, it cools down, takes the form of thoughts, speech, actions and is impressed into the panorama of the world. It is true – this 'cooling system', which has been formed in our present incarnation partly from the forces we have developed from before, partly from everything that we have accumulated and managed to organize in the current – could be quite inadequate for capturing the verticality of this flow. But this doesn’t mean that we need to throw away our concepts. Actually the concepts can all be of use. Even without knowing it, all our sciences have created a rich vocabulary that we can use to imaginatively express the subtle dynamics of our spiritual dimension. We only need to learn to propel them from a different perspective. And this is only partly a technical task. Even more important is our unity with the being that emanates from the fiery depths of the heart world. A world of pure Light of Wisdom and Warmth of Love. Not only our physical body is relatively permanent but our soul being is also often quite rigid. Like cast metal, with our intellect we can scrape some iron filings from here and there, polish some rough edges but if we think of something more, we feel it is impossible. And it is indeed impossible for our constrained spiritual activity, which is forced to flow within the channels of this organism. But what is possible for us, is to open like a child, in humility and prayer-like wonder, to the Cosmic being that emanates from our heart world, by virtue of which our ego exists, as a more cooled down and solidified form of the Divine Spirit. The Divine essence is graspable by the ego as intuition in the mind. But just as before, this essence becomes a reality not when it remains as a general intuition but only when it becomes a spring of everlasting life, living inspiration on the wings of which every gesture of our human “I” lives and which we see reflected in the full spectrum of phenomena. When the portal of our heart opens and we let the Divine Love flow through us, its million degrees of warmth softens our rigid cooling installation, makes it pliable and we can begin reshaping it in sacred resonance with archetypal Cosmic forces. These words are not simply poetic expressions of some spiritual drunkenness. Like Jacob's ladder - we first hear them as concepts, then they stimulate our imagination and become mighty pictures in the soul, then become expressions of literal reality. Then the words are seen as scientifically precise descriptions of full blown Divine reality, within which all of us flow all the time but with varying degrees of perception and cognition.