Philosophical Speculations

ScottRoberts wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:55 pm

V. Christodoulides wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:40 pm
In addition to Ashvin's response, I would like to also say that the existence of at least one subject cannot be doubted.

Actually, it can be doubted. Many Buddhists do (the "no-self" doctrine).

Subjective experience implies an experiencer (subject) that is experiencing.

Yes, but you have just assumed that there is subjective experience, and not, say, 'experience that is neither objective nor subjective'. The distinction between subject and object is a product of thinking, which is what allows for doubt. (Note: I am not saying the distinction isn't a good one to make, just that it cannot be considered fundamental. I am not an adherent of the "no-self" doctrine.)

Notice that this does not necessarily imply a duality. I guess we agree that everything is experiential (inside awareness), there is nothing outside, not even the subject. They are one. I would personally say that ultimately, the One Unified Reality (Universal Subject) is experiencing itself.

While I would prefer saying ultimately that there is the One/Many polarity, which is present in all experience.

Great! I appreciate your approach and I will take it into consideration.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:36 pm

V. Christodoulides wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:06 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:00 pm


V.,

Could you elaborate on what sources you worked with previously to reach these conclusions about the evolution of consciousness, i.e. through the spirit-soul-body structure over many incarnations?

Ashvin,

Mostly the 'Law of One Material'. It is speculative and controversial material but I found the metaphysical and ontological aspects of it really interesting and helpful. I recommend that the information contained therein be examined in and of itself, without much attention given to whence it came from. If you are interested, I can provide you with more details.

V.,

I assure you that on this forum there is no undue skepticism of communications from the spiritual worlds regarding the nature of our reality in connection with those worlds. You may have noticed, if you had a chance to look around, that Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy are mentioned on many of the threads. The biggest question I see in this context is what the communications are prompting us to do in terms of our spiritual seeking? Many systems out there give us copious amounts of information about the nature of spiritual reality (the only reality there is), and the Anthroposophical (or spiritual scientific) approach is not an exception in that regard, since it provides details of spiritual reality that can occupy us for lifetimes, but the big difference is that it also illuminates the means by which we can verify that information ourselves through the development of our intuitive thinking. Steiner takes very seriously the following:

Let us for a moment consider thought. What is it, my friends, to take thought? Took you then thought today? What thoughts did you think today? What thoughts were part of the original thought today? In how many of your thoughts did the creation abide? Was love contained? And was service freely given? You are not part of a material universe. You are part of a thought. You are dancing in a ballroom in which there is no material. You are dancing thoughts. You move your body, your mind, and your spirit in somewhat eccentric patterns for you have not completely grasped the concept that you are part of the original thought.

Not only mediums and channelers can get on the same 'vibration level' as higher spiritual beings and commune with them to attain intuitive, inspirational, and imaginative insights about individual and collective destinies, but so can every human being with the modern intellectual constitution, which of course includes everyone on this forum. If we are really 'part of a Thought' that is the creative potential of the Cosmos, then the natural place to start seeking that potential is in the observation-experience of our own intimate thinking activity where the Thought manifests in a decohered form. Federica has already outlined some of these things for you and pointed you toward certain resources where we can begin that conscious experience of our intuitive thinking capacity.

In my personal experience, there is very little that is more inspiring than rediscovering esoteric concepts about spiritual reality as inner experiential certainties. That is what the spiritual path of intuitive thinking provides. Since you are now also well-versed in idealistic philosophy, I think you would have little trouble following along with Steiner's Philosophy of Spiritual Activity, which also addresses the frameworks of every other modern philosophy. Below are a few things that Steiner said about PoSA. 

Steiner wrote:“For in the case of a book like this, the important thing is so to organize the thoughts it contains that they take effect. With many other books it doesn’t make a great deal of difference if one shifts the sequence, putting this thing first and that later. But in the case of The Philosophy of Freedom that is impossible. It would be just as unthinkable to put page 150 fifty pages earlier as it would be to put a dog’s hind legs, where the front ones belong.”

“Catharsis is an ancient term for the purification of the astral body by means of meditation and concentration exercises. If a reader takes this book as it was meant and relates to it in the way a virtuoso playing a composition on the piano relates to its composer, reproducing the whole piece out of herself, the books organically evolved thought sequence will bring about a high degree of catharsis.”

“Within this book thinking is experienced in a way that makes it impossible for a person involved in it to have any other impression, when he is living in thought, he is living in the cosmos. This relatedness to cosmic mysteries is the red thread running through the book.”

I am happy to hear more about your experience working through the Law of One as well.

Ashvin,

That's nice to hear! I haven't looked around a lot yet, but I have noticed that there is so much to explore here. Thank you all for your contributions to this forum. I could not agree more with what you are saying about sources of spiritual information. This is the biggest, most important point. No amount of information passively absorbed will make any significant, lasting change to our true selves. It takes active participation on our part. I am glad you shared that quote. Here is another one I believe you will resonate with.

Enlightenment is of the moment, is an opening to intelligent infinity. It can only be accomplished by the self, for the self. Another self cannot teach/learn enlightenment, but only teach/learn information, inspiration, or a sharing of love, of mystery, of the unknown that makes the other-self reach out and begin the seeking process that ends in a moment. But who can know when an entity will open the gate to the present?

Indeed, everyone has this potential. Furthermore, this approach that you all shared with me in this thread is really important and valuable. It is an immersive and deeply metacognitive practice that I am sure has profound implications for how one relates to the world in a more holistic manner. Also, I firmly believe that it does not oppose the more analytic approach. On the contrary, they go hand in hand, one helping the other. The secret is to not get exclusively fixated on either one, ignoring the merit of the other. They both have their place in our lives as human explorers and seekers of truth.

Yes! Those moments of inner discovery are the most transformational. The reassurance gained from such epiphanies melts away all doubts one previously had. I will certainly read Steiner.

Actually, I was offering to provide a more detailed background on the material, the non-profit organization behind it, and the concept of channeling in general. Mostly to give arguments against possible objections to it, but you have already shown me that you are adequately informed on this stuff. But yeah, I am glad to have come across this material. It has aided me in expanding my horizons in many different ways.

V. Christodoulides wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:15 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:36 pm

V. Christodoulides wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:06 pm

Ashvin,

Mostly the 'Law of One Material'. It is speculative and controversial material but I found the metaphysical and ontological aspects of it really interesting and helpful. I recommend that the information contained therein be examined in and of itself, without much attention given to whence it came from. If you are interested, I can provide you with more details.

V.,

I assure you that on this forum there is no undue skepticism of communications from the spiritual worlds regarding the nature of our reality in connection with those worlds. You may have noticed, if you had a chance to look around, that Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy are mentioned on many of the threads. The biggest question I see in this context is what the communications are prompting us to do in terms of our spiritual seeking? Many systems out there give us copious amounts of information about the nature of spiritual reality (the only reality there is), and the Anthroposophical (or spiritual scientific) approach is not an exception in that regard, since it provides details of spiritual reality that can occupy us for lifetimes, but the big difference is that it also illuminates the means by which we can verify that information ourselves through the development of our intuitive thinking. Steiner takes very seriously the following:

Let us for a moment consider thought. What is it, my friends, to take thought? Took you then thought today? What thoughts did you think today? What thoughts were part of the original thought today? In how many of your thoughts did the creation abide? Was love contained? And was service freely given? You are not part of a material universe. You are part of a thought. You are dancing in a ballroom in which there is no material. You are dancing thoughts. You move your body, your mind, and your spirit in somewhat eccentric patterns for you have not completely grasped the concept that you are part of the original thought.

Not only mediums and channelers can get on the same 'vibration level' as higher spiritual beings and commune with them to attain intuitive, inspirational, and imaginative insights about individual and collective destinies, but so can every human being with the modern intellectual constitution, which of course includes everyone on this forum. If we are really 'part of a Thought' that is the creative potential of the Cosmos, then the natural place to start seeking that potential is in the observation-experience of our own intimate thinking activity where the Thought manifests in a decohered form. Federica has already outlined some of these things for you and pointed you toward certain resources where we can begin that conscious experience of our intuitive thinking capacity.

In my personal experience, there is very little that is more inspiring than rediscovering esoteric concepts about spiritual reality as inner experiential certainties. That is what the spiritual path of intuitive thinking provides. Since you are now also well-versed in idealistic philosophy, I think you would have little trouble following along with Steiner's Philosophy of Spiritual Activity, which also addresses the frameworks of every other modern philosophy. Below are a few things that Steiner said about PoSA. 

Steiner wrote:“For in the case of a book like this, the important thing is so to organize the thoughts it contains that they take effect. With many other books it doesn’t make a great deal of difference if one shifts the sequence, putting this thing first and that later. But in the case of The Philosophy of Freedom that is impossible. It would be just as unthinkable to put page 150 fifty pages earlier as it would be to put a dog’s hind legs, where the front ones belong.”

“Catharsis is an ancient term for the purification of the astral body by means of meditation and concentration exercises. If a reader takes this book as it was meant and relates to it in the way a virtuoso playing a composition on the piano relates to its composer, reproducing the whole piece out of herself, the books organically evolved thought sequence will bring about a high degree of catharsis.”

“Within this book thinking is experienced in a way that makes it impossible for a person involved in it to have any other impression, when he is living in thought, he is living in the cosmos. This relatedness to cosmic mysteries is the red thread running through the book.”

I am happy to hear more about your experience working through the Law of One as well.

Ashvin,

That's nice to hear! I haven't looked around a lot yet, but I have noticed that there is so much to explore here. Thank you all for your contributions to this forum. I could not agree more with what you are saying about sources of spiritual information. This is the biggest, most important point. No amount of information passively absorbed will make any significant, lasting change to our true selves. It takes active participation on our part. I am glad you shared that quote. Here is another one I believe you will resonate with.

Enlightenment is of the moment, is an opening to intelligent infinity. It can only be accomplished by the self, for the self. Another self cannot teach/learn enlightenment, but only teach/learn information, inspiration, or a sharing of love, of mystery, of the unknown that makes the other-self reach out and begin the seeking process that ends in a moment. But who can know when an entity will open the gate to the present?

Indeed, everyone has this potential. Furthermore, this approach that you all shared with me in this thread is really important and valuable. It is an immersive and deeply metacognitive practice that I am sure has profound implications for how one relates to the world in a more holistic manner. Also, I firmly believe that it does not oppose the more analytic approach. On the contrary, they go hand in hand, one helping the other. The secret is to not get exclusively fixated on either one, ignoring the merit of the other. They both have their place in our lives as human explorers and seekers of truth.

That's exactly right, V. And this is where Steiner excels more than anyone else I have come across (although there are others who do similar things), in spiraling together the intellectual or metacognitive approach and the more mystical or spiritualist approach. He first began studying things like mathematics and philosophy, even though he also had profound spiritual experiences as a child, and eventually came to interact with Goethean science/art and the German idealist philosophy at a profound level. He also began running around in more occult theosophical circles and it dawned on him that one and the same Spirit reveals itself across all of these diverse domains of modern civilization, i.e. through various concentric layers of Cognition that express themselves as thinking, feeling, and will-perception. The rest of his extensive research into Cosmic evolution and the nature of the physical, soul, and spirit worlds can be understood as resting on that foundation.

Yes! Those moments of inner discovery are the most transformational. The reassurance gained from such epiphanies melts away all doubts one previously had. I will certainly read Steiner.

Actually, I was offering to provide a more detailed background on the material, the non-profit organization behind it, and the concept of channeling in general. Mostly to give arguments against possible objections to it, but you have already shown me that you are adequately informed on this stuff. But yeah, I am glad to have come across this material. It has aided me in expanding my horizons in many different ways.

I don't have much knowledge of the Law of One except a few brief skims of what I could find online. Once you get into Steiner's work, it would definitely be interesting to hear how you think it compares or where you think the differences may reside. It is interesting that Steiner often mentions how we are recapitulating the ancient Egyptian epoch in our own time, due to certain rhythmical 'laws' of spiritual evolution, and I suppose the channeled communications from 'Ra' probably have something to do with that.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:00 pm I don't have much knowledge of the Law of One except a few brief skims of what I could find online. Once you get into Steiner's work, it would definitely be interesting to hear how you think it compares or where you think the differences may reside. It is interesting that Steiner often mentions how we are recapitulating the ancient Egyptian epoch in our own time, due to certain rhythmical 'laws' of spiritual evolution, and I suppose the channeled communications from 'Ra' probably have something to do with that.

That definitely could be an interesting discussion, Ashvin.

I do recall that I came across Law of One and similar channeled material (e.g. Jane Roberts Seth) several years ago. I don't remember much of either because it wasn't what I was looking for. But nonetheless, I might look through the Law of One again in the future (but in depth) to see if it adds something to the discussion here.

By the way, Ashvin, is it possible for you to elaborate on what Steiner said about the ancient Egypt epoch recapitulating today? I heard Steiner spoke of Atlantis epoch (or the karma of Atlantis) recapitulating in today's epoch, so maybe it has a connection with that, but I'm not sure because I don't have much familiarity at all with Atlantis or Egypt.

LukeJTM wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:52 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:00 pm I don't have much knowledge of the Law of One except a few brief skims of what I could find online. Once you get into Steiner's work, it would definitely be interesting to hear how you think it compares or where you think the differences may reside. It is interesting that Steiner often mentions how we are recapitulating the ancient Egyptian epoch in our own time, due to certain rhythmical 'laws' of spiritual evolution, and I suppose the channeled communications from 'Ra' probably have something to do with that.

That definitely could be an interesting discussion, Ashvin.

I do recall that I came across Law of One and similar channeled material (e.g. Jane Roberts Seth) several years ago. I don't remember much of either because it wasn't what I was looking for. But nonetheless, I might look through the Law of One again in the future (but in depth) to see if it adds something to the discussion here.

By the way, Ashvin, is it possible for you to elaborate on what Steiner said about the ancient Egypt epoch recapitulating today? I heard Steiner spoke of Atlantis epoch (or the karma of Atlantis) recapitulating in today's epoch, so maybe it has a connection with that, but I'm not sure because I don't have much familiarity at all with Atlantis or Egypt.

Hi Luke,

I think it is important to discern there are many rhythms within the rhythms of spiritual evolution. So one scale of the rhythms (which is actually one of the most decohered scales) unfolds as Polarian, Hyperborean, Lemurian, Atlantean, PA, etc. The first three recapitulated older planetary incarnations (Saturn, Sun, Moon) while the Atlantean was finally able to bring new development in its 4th sub-epoch. Within the current PA epoch, there is an even lower/shorter rhythm that unfolds as Indian, Persian, Egyptian, Greco-Roman, etc. These recapitulated the Atlantean epoch until the 5th sub-epoch, which is our own. Something truly new comes in the 5th epoch through the development of the consciousness soul that is able to begin thinking about its own thinking activity.

Once we cross the first third of the Greco-Roman (4th) epoch of PA, we have passed the 'turning point in time' from spiritual involution to spiritual evolution. So now, the new developments in spiritual evolution come through retracing our individual-collective experience of the old developments in clear-thinking consciousness. Practically this means the outer forms of the old developments are sacrificed so that their inner spiritual nature can shine forth. That is why we can say the 5th epoch is a recapitulation or echo of the 3rd Egyptian epoch - perhaps a better word is actually "fulfillment". We should remember that we are the same souls who were living through and experiencing the 3rd epoch. Now our thinking soul capacity has ripened to the point where it can bring certain tasks that we started in the 3rd epoch to fulfillment. That can also be understood as the fulfillment of our karma - the imaginations cast out by the ancient Egyptians, etc. (us) into the structuring of their (our) civilization are now reintegrated by modern humans as new inner thinking capacities.

Steiner gives many examples of such tasks that are brought to fulfillment throughout his lectures. For ex. he points to how the Wisdom of the stars in ancient Babylonian-Chaldean-Egyptian civilization has now metamorphosed into modern mathematical astronomy through individualities like Brahe, Kepler, Copernicus, etc. Generally, the first half of the 5th epoch is characterized by stripping out the 'subjective' dimension of natural scientific investigation so everything can be analyzed free of our subjective viewpoints, influenced by passions, preferences, beliefs, etc. That is a critical intention we were tasked with fulfilling. If we are able to discern these overarching intentions/tasks in our progressive evolution, then we can use the objective, mechanical, and quantitative sciences to serve their proper end of inwardly strengthening our dispassionate thinking forces, rather than confusing them for ends-in-themselves and their results as pure reflections of "truth".

The TC spectrum also gives us a very useful way to imagine these associations between epochs. We could imagine that, if the soul-life of humanity was not influenced in a way that requires it to pass deeply into the physical spectrum, the task of developing inner thinking forces from the received Wisdom of the stars would have been accomplished immediately. The relevant individualities and events in the 3rd epoch would have been immediately united with their 'counter-images' in the 5th epoch. But, given the reality of those deviating influences, this particular intent-idea was 'arrested' while we worked through the friction of partial transitions between intents, which translated into many centuries of time passing from our intellectual perspective. We are now in a position to reach back into the original intention-idea with our thinking cognition and thereby bring it to proper fulfillment.

It is actually most important to familiarize ourselves with these broad principles of spiritual evolution, from a few different angles, rather than the details of Atlantis or Egypt - those details will naturally fill out our more holistic view as our development continues. All the details we encounter or have encountered before in some place or another will be attracted around the archetypally patterned 'lines of force' that have been established in our thinking consciousness.

Thanks for explaining, Ashvin. I think I get the general idea of what you are saying.

Could you maybe give a brief explanation of involution, or tell me if my understanding is accurate? I still feel unsure about the meaning of this term. Is it meant to be saying, in short, that for the evolution of self-consciousness to divine-consciousness to happen, there needs to first be a foundation or building up of foundational energies or forces to make this possible?

https://www.owenbarfield.org/wordpress/ ... iagram.pdf

I am not sure how to get the Owen Barfield diagram to embed on here. Hopefully the link works. Would I be accurate in saying that the left side of diagram (up to consciousness soul) is describing Involution? Then when we get to consciousness soul (or maybe the Christ Resurrection in the middle), the diagram from thereon is describing Evolution?

LukeJTM wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:29 pm Thanks for explaining, Ashvin. I think I get the general idea of what you are saying.

Could you maybe give a brief explanation of involution, or tell me if my understanding is accurate? I still feel unsure about the meaning of this term. Is it meant to be saying, in short, that for the evolution of self-consciousness to divine-consciousness to happen, there needs to first be a foundation or building up of foundational energies or forces to make this possible?

https://www.owenbarfield.org/wordpress/ ... iagram.pdf

I am not sure how to get the Owen Barfield diagram to embed on here. Hopefully the link works. Would I be accurate in saying that the left side of diagram (up to consciousness soul) is describing Involution? Then when we get to consciousness soul (or maybe the Christ Resurrection in the middle), the diagram from thereon is describing Evolution?

Yes, exactly, the inversion point is the "X" on the diagram. The spiritual involution is what secular science normally considers as "natural evolution" (in a one-sided way that ignores the activity of suprasensory beings responsible for it). It is the building up of the bodily structure of the Earth and humanity so that it can serve as proper instrumental support for the progressive incarnation of the higher soul and spiritual members. Through the latter, all the forces that have been 'encoded' in the bodily foundation are redirected - like a train switching tracks without losing its momentum - towards the cause of manifesting loving and creative Ideals that will later become the foundation for new waves of evolution. In this sense, we should remember that our current bodily foundation is the result of the loving and creative Ideals of previous waves of evolution, i.e. the higher hierarchies.

This same progression that has happened for the Earth and humanity as a whole happens for each individual incarnation as well - the first three 7-year periods of our life are devoted to the building up of physical, etheric, and astral bodies so they serve as support for the soul-spiritual tasks that unfold in the later periods of our life, through the sentient-intellectual-consciousness soul members and the higher spiritual members. It is all ideational forces - intuitions, inspirations, imaginations - that go into fashioning the body and soul foundation and then being 'unearthed' from that foundation as inner spiritual capacities (it is no coincidence that archeology became a major scientific discipline in the last 150 years). While the body and soul fashioning part happens as a part of our natural evolution, as acts of Grace, the unearthing part, for both individuals and collectives, only happens as a result of our own spiritual initiative coming to meet that Grace.

Luke,

To complement Ashvin's notes on involution from another angle, a lecture by MS that I will post soon refers to the times of involution preceding the coming of Christ in terms of growing Ahrimanic influences on man. I'll quote the passage below.
Note: it may be confusing to read about positive Luciferic impulses, unless we recall that all impulses, including the Luciferic and Ahrimanic ones, have a crucial role in man's evolution. All are trials that provide opportunity through risk.

Scaligero wrote:It’s a matter of facing an extremely powerful being, whom we call Ahriman. He is an important figure. It’s Ahriman who armed Cain’s fist, instigating him to murder his brother. Ahriman is behind everything man has to face in terms of obscure nature, aversion, and greed. He is the being behind all that, and we shouldn’t forget how powerful a being he is. He belongs to such a level that, if he had followed his normal course of development, he would be in the first hierarchy, the hierarchy of the Seraphim and Cherubs. He is an old Spirit of Wisdom.
...
Ahriman’s power is so big that Jehova, for instance, wouldn’t have had the ability to face him. For this reason, Jehovah’s kingdom ended when the Luciferic powers were no longer sufficient to cope with man’s materialistic experiences. In this way, man entered the sphere of Ahriman, who is more powerful than Jehovah, and an epoch began when man had to either rediscover an original force, much greater than Ahriman’s, or to become Ahriman’s prey. Such was the world’s situation on the eve of the coming of Christ. The world at that juncture was leaning towards Ahriman.

In older times, all Eastern doctrines, from Taoism to Yoga, had been underpinned by a wise current of Luciferic illumination, guided by superior powers. At the same time there had been a secret current underlying all the Eastern streams - especially the Indian one - that we can call the current of Logos, the current of Christ. That current was perfectly aware of what man had to do, of what had to happen. That Christic current inspired all forms of Eastern wisdom, albeit through their individual limitations. We can say that that ancient wisdom shone one last time in Greek philosophy and in the ethic and juridical power of Romanness. After which a point was reached when the risk appeared of going below human. It happened precisely in Greco-Roman times, when Christ appeared. That’s been a really serious juncture. Indeed, Christ has come exactly at that point in time, bringing in the impulse for the reintegration of man.

Thanks for the responses back, Ashvin and Federica.

It seems that it would potentially be a very good idea to incorporate some form of expression of gratitude into meditation. Specifically, gratitude towards the higher heirarchies who help make our incarnations possible. Do any of you know any meditations or prayers that achieve this?

LukeJTM wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:48 pm Thanks for the responses back, Ashvin and Federica.

It seems that it would potentially be a very good idea to incorporate some form of expression of gratitude into meditation. Specifically, gratitude towards the higher heirarchies who help make our incarnations possible. Do any of you know any meditations or prayers that achieve this?

Hi Luke,

For my part, I only know very few, Ashvin can surely answer your question 100 times better. I can only indicate this prayer that Ashvin earlier suggested. It definitely intensely incorporates gratitude. But I'd say all prayers and meditations require gratitude and offer an opportunity to express it.

I seize the opportunity to say, Ashvin and Cleric if you read here, thank you for all that you have posted! I have much to read and write, but still not done with other tasks for today.