Philosophical Speculations

Kaje977 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 5:27 pm I don't know if my input really means anything here, but to me The Church always intuitively seemed to me to be a "A home to always come back to (when everything lays astray)" and when one needs guidance and less an integral part of Evolution (although one can arguably say that if it does serve a certain function, it does have an impact and is a part of it). Now, technically, this could be any different place too, like an actual home of your family. But this one feels more archetypical, a home everyone can return to, young and old, female or male, orphans, rich and poor, every background, etc. And obviously it doesn't seem to be limited to The Church only, but similarly to other places of faith too, such as Mosques or Buddhist Temples. Holy Places, I'd say in general. In Occultism and Magick such divine places are also often understood to be inhabited by powerful Egregores and/or Spirits. Their aura and presence is clearly there, but subtle. And similarly it's important to not get totally emerged with these beings, because they nourish themselves with the "mental substance" that we produce when our thoughts are too adhered to them.

The Church, I claim, usually inhabits Well-Meaning Spirits and Egregores and usually attracts those to the places while it keeps out the ill-meaning beings (but it really depends on the specific place and location; Some places are cursed or are filled with Poltergeists, but you usually would feel that immediately), but take lodges, sects, Scientology, or even ill-lead fanatic interpretations of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and the like and their locations, and the Egregores there are not so friendly anymore, trying to lure and bind you to their place too. In the worst case, they can actually turn you into a total nutcase.

Hi Kaje,

This opens what seems to me a quite different angle of discussion, about the distribution or concentration of spiritual forces across the earthly crust, and in concomitance with sacred places and churches... I personally don't feel there is much I am able to comment on it, but I wonder, what do you think about the main discussion - about the Catholic project?

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 4:22 pm It points to a rapidly escalating epidemic of eroding the soul's cognitive-moral foundations, and without such foundations, there is zero chance for higher knowledge to infuse the Earthly spectrum. The fact is that the Church is the only institution in the modern world that even recognizes this epidemic and feels the need to resist it by educating souls about the spiritual foundations of their existence. That fact can be leveraged by Unknown Friends to contribute to the pursuit of higher knowledge, not by blasting the trumpet in the ears of souls that have already gone deaf, but by learning to speak their 'sign language'. These religious souls can begin to restore their sight of the spiritual gestures embedded within their familiar dogmas, doctrines, sacraments, etc., if only we take an active interest in developing the methods for them to do so.

By the way, I think Cleric is fully on board with the above up to that point. He then points to BD as the ideal means for such souls to restore inner integrity in a way that remains open to higher knowledge. And I agree that it would indeed be the ideal means, but sometimes ideals need to be prepared for and bridged to, given the realistic circumstances we are faced with.

I imagine your perspective may not be exactly the same by now. Cleric's last post has largely recontextualized what you call "facts" here, which are actually more like opinions about the exoteric stances and capacities of the institution-RCC, as I see it. Moving to the deeper outlooks in the background, Cleric's research submits to us that not only the project of a dogma-based RCC as main vessel for human evolution is retrograde per se (since it wants to radicalize Peter-souls in intellectuality, at a time when this is already involutionary), but also John’s active engagement in the project is itself born and cultivated in the mushy zone. Here Peter overlaps with John, and John doesn't realize it. John thinks of himself as the servant, benevolent leader, whilst he’s actually intermingled with Peter, as well as with much larger living and willing forms of the astral realm. This unsustainable double game which is part and parcel of the Catholic project - this double game unknowingly thought out from the mushy area - is also the key to answer your question here:

Ashvin wrote:What could make the [adversarial forces’] work of hindrance easier and be more pleasing in their sight than John souls voluntarily confining themselves to the periphery, even when their shared moral intuitions begin attracting them toward the center? What could be more enjoyable than the prospect that the Earthly sandbox will be understood by these souls as being their de facto arena to play around in and shape to their liking?

You're right, nothing could make their shadow work easier, except if John doesn't realize his enmeshment within the mushy area; except if John doesn't realize that MoT is already being hijacked in the way described. If these things are happening and are unrecognized by John, then the game is reversed. Now the adversarial forces only hope to remain undetected. And we know that asynchronicity is the ultimate essence of evil.

MoT is unfortunately very fragile and exposed in this respect, since Tomberg, as you described, “renounced Devachan sacrificially”. In this way his sacrifice, and his major work, were let to exist in asynchronous position, as an ingenious but late sprouting of the intellectual soul - its asynchronous last appeal. What an optimal opportunity for the retrograde and the already retarded forces, striving to anchor humanity back into a now outdated state of consciousness, to prey on MoT. Now that humanity is walking on a razorblade crest through the valley of the shadow of death, this striving to hold it back could become decisive. Have you dispassionately pondered this possibility, Ashvin?

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 5:18 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 4:22 pm It points to a rapidly escalating epidemic of eroding the soul's cognitive-moral foundations, and without such foundations, there is zero chance for higher knowledge to infuse the Earthly spectrum. The fact is that the Church is the only institution in the modern world that even recognizes this epidemic and feels the need to resist it by educating souls about the spiritual foundations of their existence. That fact can be leveraged by Unknown Friends to contribute to the pursuit of higher knowledge, not by blasting the trumpet in the ears of souls that have already gone deaf, but by learning to speak their 'sign language'. These religious souls can begin to restore their sight of the spiritual gestures embedded within their familiar dogmas, doctrines, sacraments, etc., if only we take an active interest in developing the methods for them to do so.

By the way, I think Cleric is fully on board with the above up to that point. He then points to BD as the ideal means for such souls to restore inner integrity in a way that remains open to higher knowledge. And I agree that it would indeed be the ideal means, but sometimes ideals need to be prepared for and bridged to, given the realistic circumstances we are faced with.

I imagine your perspective may not be exactly the same by now. Cleric's last post has largely recontextualized what you call "facts" here, which are actually more like opinions about the exoteric stances and capacities of the institution-RCC, as I see it.

Yes, I am talking about the exoteric stance as a fact. Obviously, this stance does not exhaust the relevant facts to consider, such as the karmic depths and momentum of the Church. Yet it is nevertheless a fact that needs to be contemplated. The Church has a unique history of resisting some of the most perverse tendencies of the modern human imagination and will, and obviously, VT had first-hand experience with that during and after the war. This is a fact that should be honestly confronted. No fact should be deemed too 'trivial' in our intuitive exploration of the possibilities.

MoT is unfortunately very fragile and exposed in this respect, since Tomberg, as you described, “renounced Devachan sacrificially”. In this way his sacrifice, and his major work, were let to exist in asynchronous position, as an ingenious but late sprouting of the intellectual soul - its asynchronous last appeal. What an optimal opportunity for the retrograde and the already retarded forces, striving to anchor humanity back into a now outdated state of consciousness, to prey on MoT. Now that humanity is walking on a razorblade crest through the valley of the shadow of death, this striving to hold it back could become decisive. Have you dispassionately pondered this possibility, Ashvin?

I have dispassionately pondered this possibility to the best of my current ability, since it has been the persistent theme of this thread. I have meditated on and prayed about this and other possibilities. Sometimes, we can sense when the spiritual worlds feel to be 'praying back', and I believe my current stance (as expressed in the response to Cleric above) reflects the result of that process.

What I have tried to emphasize is that we should also try to get a more refined feeling for the possibilities unfolding right now, in real-time. Another given fact is that, instead of exploring MoT, its profound wisdom, its overlap with spiritual science, etc., we have been mostly focused on all the ways in which it is an 'asynchronous last appeal' and may become an optimal tool of regressive spirits (what are the facts pointing to how it is already being hijacked?). Some parts of it also seem to be clearly misunderstood. This is a fact we can have full confidence in, because it is unfolding right here on the thread. As I said to Cleric, it is an immediate return on investment for the retrograde forces. These are the kind of facts that ring the most dissonant for me within the overall characterization of the possibility. It's dissonant for me when such things don't seem to even be noticed, let alone addressed.

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 3:16 pm The point is that imaginative cognition and arcana cognition intersect but do not coincide. What I have described as astral CGOL referes to the arcana experience.

If it doesn't coincide with imaginative cognition, then what would you compare it to? You said it isn't comparable to lucid dreaming, presumably not to ingesting psychedelics or 'no-thought' meditations, either. What exactly is this astral CGOL, in your view? I understand you may want to quote Cleric again here, but the whole question is what he is describing, if not some form of imaginative cognition (or 'astral vision').

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 5:55 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 5:18 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 4:22 pm It points to a rapidly escalating epidemic of eroding the soul's cognitive-moral foundations, and without such foundations, there is zero chance for higher knowledge to infuse the Earthly spectrum. The fact is that the Church is the only institution in the modern world that even recognizes this epidemic and feels the need to resist it by educating souls about the spiritual foundations of their existence. That fact can be leveraged by Unknown Friends to contribute to the pursuit of higher knowledge, not by blasting the trumpet in the ears of souls that have already gone deaf, but by learning to speak their 'sign language'. These religious souls can begin to restore their sight of the spiritual gestures embedded within their familiar dogmas, doctrines, sacraments, etc., if only we take an active interest in developing the methods for them to do so.

By the way, I think Cleric is fully on board with the above up to that point. He then points to BD as the ideal means for such souls to restore inner integrity in a way that remains open to higher knowledge. And I agree that it would indeed be the ideal means, but sometimes ideals need to be prepared for and bridged to, given the realistic circumstances we are faced with.

I imagine your perspective may not be exactly the same by now. Cleric's last post has largely recontextualized what you call "facts" here, which are actually more like opinions about the exoteric stances and capacities of the institution-RCC, as I see it.

Yes, I am talking about the exoteric stance as a fact. Obviously, this stance does not exhaust the relevant facts to consider, such as the karmic depths and momentum of the Church. Yet it is nevertheless a fact that needs to be contemplated. The Church has a unique history of resisting some of the most perverse tendencies of the modern human imagination and will, and obviously, VT had first-hand experience with that during and after the war. This is a fact that should be honestly confronted. No fact should be deemed too 'trivial' in our intuitive exploration of the possibilities.

MoT is unfortunately very fragile and exposed in this respect, since Tomberg, as you described, “renounced Devachan sacrificially”. In this way his sacrifice, and his major work, were let to exist in asynchronous position, as an ingenious but late sprouting of the intellectual soul - its asynchronous last appeal. What an optimal opportunity for the retrograde and the already retarded forces, striving to anchor humanity back into a now outdated state of consciousness, to prey on MoT. Now that humanity is walking on a razorblade crest through the valley of the shadow of death, this striving to hold it back could become decisive. Have you dispassionately pondered this possibility, Ashvin?

I have dispassionately pondered this possibility to the best of my current ability, since it has been the persistent theme of this thread. I have meditated on and prayed about this and other possibilities. Sometimes, we can sense when the spiritual worlds feel to be 'praying back', and I believe my current stance (as expressed in the response to Cleric above) reflects the result of that process.

What I have tried to emphasize is that we should also try to get a more refined feeling for the possibilities unfolding right now, in real-time. Another given fact is that, instead of exploring MoT, its profound wisdom, its overlap with spiritual science, etc., we have been mostly focused on all the ways in which it is an 'asynchronous last appeal' and may become an optimal tool of regressive spirits (what are the facts pointing to how it is already being hijacked?). Some parts of it also seem to be clearly misunderstood. This is a fact we can have full confidence in, because it is unfolding right here on the thread. As I said to Cleric, it is an immediate return on investment for the retrograde forces. These are the kind of facts that ring the most dissonant for me within the overall characterization of the possibility. It's dissonant for me when such things don't seem to even be noticed, let alone addressed.

As I wrote above (the part you have discarded) all these dynamics, dissonances, and exoteric facts, become reversed if we now inquire the possibility that John is not the John that R imagines, but a John who unbeknownst to himself, overlaps with Peter, and with evil astral forces. This has only been expressed explicitely in Cleric's last post. It's not been an explicit persistent theme. If true, it would reverse all the perceptions you speak of. Surely, it's a highly uncomfortable possibility to ponder. But have you pondered it? As Cleric said, “we can very easily take a turn in astral space and not feel it as a turn at all.”

When it comes to your repeated requests for exoteric facts, I have to reply that it shouldn't be of such large import as it has become in your perspective. We know that from spiritual-scientific historical understanding. You used to be the first to point out these things. But recently you have changed, somehow. BTW, you have recently quoted from Human and Cosmic Thought. Speaking of the 12 signs of human and cosmic thought, and the 7 possible moods the signs may host - they may raise the question of how our own outlook evolves in time. I wonder how you would characterize the evolution of your perspective, in the terms of this ‘Zodiac of thought¨? Or do you feel that no change at all has happened?

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 1:53 pm

Neither Satan, nor Belial, nor Lucifer, nor Mephistopheles have ever deprived anyone of his freedom. Temptation is their only weapon and this presupposes the freedom of he who is tempted. But possession by an "evil spirit" has nothing to do with temptation. It is invariably the same thing as with Frankenstein's monster. One engenders an elemental being and one subsequently becomes the slave of one's own creation. The "demons" or "evil spirits" of the New testament are called today in psychotherapy "neuroses of obsession", "neuroses or fear", "fixed ideas", etc. They have been discovered by contemporary psychiatrists and are recognised as real— i.e. as "parasitic psychic organisms" independent of the conscious human will and tending to subjugate it. But the devil is not there to no avail —although not in the sense of direct participation. He observes the law—which protects human freedom and is the inviolable convention between the hierarchies of the "right" and those of the "left"—and never violates it, as stands out in the example of the story of Job. One need not fear the devil, but rather the perverse tendencies in oneself! For these perverse human tendencies can deprive us of our freedom and enslave us. Worse still, they can avail themselves of our imagination and inventive faculties and lead us to creations which can become the scourge of mankind. The atomic bomb and the hydrogen bomb are flagrant examples of this.

Man with the possible perversity of his warped imagination is far more dangerous than the devil and his legions. For man is not bound by the convention concluded between heaven and hell; he can go beyond the limits of the law and engender arbitrarily malicious forces whose nature and action are beyond the framework of the law. . .such being the Molochs and other "gods" of Canaa, Phoenecia. Carthage, ancient Mexico and other lands, which exacted human sacrifice. One has to guard against accusing the beings of the hierarchies of evil to their detriment of having played the role of Molochs, these being only creatures of the perverse collective human will and imagination. These are egregores, engendered by collective perversity, just as there exist the "demons" or "evil spirits" engendered by individuals.

So the idea that VT does not emphasize the forces of evil within oneself, is simply a misunderstanding. I believe the reason it is misunderstood is that too much focus is placed on the surface-level content, perhaps colored by a certain conception of what he is 'up to', rather than what VT is doing throughout all of the meditations. He is subtly saying, "There is no need to focus all your efforts on intellectually investigating this or that evil being of the hierarchies, but rather begin transforming the evil within yourself. As soon as you begin this purifying work, the evil beings will come to meet you and make their presence known! They will initially resist your efforts every step of the way. Except now, when you meet them in full consciousness, they will also begin to be experienced simultaneously as adversaries and servants/friends, rather than hypothetical forces of evil out there in the world." This is a point you have also made several times on this forum. As long as we remain patient and work through the meditations, this is the unmistakable impression we get from VT's inner process. I hope the above can give us some sense of how we may be prejudging things with VT-MoT.

But this only confirms the point I wanted to make. And it all comes due to the already established fact that everything is expressed from the standpoint of Imagination. This is clear from other statements too, such as: "Love is the vital element of profound knowledge, intuitive knowledge. Now, one cannot love evil. Evil is therefore unknowable in its essence. One can understand it only at a distance, as an observer of its phenomenology." Things get really mixed up here. Although it is spoken of intuitive knowledge, it is effectively accepted that we can only know evil by observing its phenomenology, which is practically still the astral condition. However, it is precisely in its essence that evil can be known, because ultimately, all beings spring from the Divine. Yet, we need the higher forms of cognition to trace these deep origins. So while it is true that on a lower level, it's far more important to work on the virtues rather than having completely abstract thoughts about the evil beings, such knowledge is nevertheless vital at the needed time. Otherwise, if we only expect to know evil by observing its phenomenology, as something that has no intersection with our essence, we form a blind spot. Then, later, even with our greatest effort to cherish good thoughts, feelings, and actions, we may feel assailed by quite the opposite, and it will be a dreadful experience, because we do not observe in the astral any phenomenology that sends them toward us. Again, this is not so much to speak against VT, but just to show how these subtle characteristics of MoT can be reinforced by those who teach them. Standing in the astral and believing that evil can only be quietly observed in its soul-physiognomy, without ever expecting to find it intermingled with our essence, is a recipe for disaster.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 1:53 pm Yes, exactly. Once we distance ourselves from the specific question of the Church, and all the emotions and conceptions the idea of the Church immediately brings to mind, we will begin to see how everything that was so nicely described is not at all unique to the Church. If we substitute "religious dogma" for "scientific model" and "Church" for "scientific academy", literally everything else can be mapped onto it in a 1:1 way. We can speak of the scientific models that constellate the default modern understanding of reality as the intellectual CoT chain. We can speak of how most publicly disseminated scientific research is concentrated within a few universities, labs, corporations, and so on. We can speak of the public figureheads that are steering the general direction, such as Neil deGrasse Tyson, Sabine Hoffenfelder, Michael Levin, Elon Musk, etc. Not in a million years would any of these individuals consider themselves students, rather than teachers, of esoteric scientists. They feel they have nothing to learn from people spewing out what they see as updated ancient mythology, philosophy, and religion. And when Levin develops his technologies for 'first-person science', he will breed a den of elemental seers who continually take wrong turns in astral space.

And this is absolutely the case! I didn't write it down explicitly because I take it for granted that this is an established fact among us. We have often noted what a treasure it is that we're not affiliated with academia or religious institutions, and thus we're completely unconstrained, we are free. It has always been about cultivating and expanding this new consciousness, even if Levin or anyone else never makes another step higher. We are not coupled to him. But it's interesting how in the course of this discussion, all of this has turned on its head. Now, the whole evolution of humanity (or at least a very central part) becomes closely coupled with the fate of an institution. Now we feel obliged to seek ways for the saving and transforming of these rigid organisms. We all know Planck's Principle:

Max Planck wrote: A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it ...

An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth.

(I laughed out loud when I read "Science progresses one funeral at a time" )

This is what I tried to point out a few times. What the Catholic project attempts to do is actually something we never see 'in the wild'. The New always emerges as something that gushes forward, it breaks all fetters, bursts old wineskins. It is up to the Old to catch up, if at all possible. But the Old can never become the prime expression of the New or even its host. Once it is born, why should it return to the womb? For example, one can say that Christ sent a blast wave into the world, but then the Hebrew project was developed (and we can be certain that something like that must have appeared, even if it hasn't left records). It was only logical that the new impulse could be planted most naturally within the Hebrews. Yet, the Jews who rejected Jesus were many. Then the idea could emerge that the new impulse can be subtly introduced, yet in a way that doesn't directly confront the established beliefs. People will generally be left believing that the Messiah is yet to come, but through subtle half-messaging, some will come to the conviction that Jesus was the Messiah. Yet, this would have to remain a matter of personal concern for the time being.

Now it might be said that things cannot be analogized in such a way. And it is true that nothing is 1:1, but things are not that wildly different either. The second coming is a reality on an individual basis, yet we need to keep a 'straight face' before the Church, and play along with the belief that it will come as an event at the Omega point. The key thing, however, is that Judaism never got transformed; it has its own karmic path to tread. Many individual souls got transformed, but the fortress of Judaism keeps its ground. This is simply the way humanity's evolution works. And I think that we simply ignore these facts when we imagine that the RCC is somehow the exception from the rule and its megalithic structure is destined, not only to transform but to somehow assume once again a world-leading role.

The main counter-argument has been "But are we to leave the Church simply to die out?" Well, the same question can be asked for everything else. Should we let Judaism die out? Why don't we join the Hebrew project and try to save it? This is what I tried to focus on in the previous post. It's not that we need to remain cold-hearted to all these evolutionary forms, but we need true understanding about how these forms arise, how they live, and how they are recycled in the spiritual economy of the Cosmos. Everything has its own specific path. No such form has even been 'saved' in the way we imagine it. Even if the Church were to be saved in this way, it would no longer be the Church as we know it, just like Judaism would no longer be the same if it accepted the Messiah. While the Hebrews were arguing about the Messiah, the Gentiles took the impulse and very soon they became the Christians. The impulse grows not where we would like it to. We can be sure that many Hebrews in the early years thought, "How great it would be if every one of us, Jews, believed in the Messiah! We'll be once again the glorious Chosen People of God." Yet, the forces shaped history otherwise.

We shouldn't be concerned with saving academia. What does this even mean? What exactly do we want to save? It can easily turn out like saving wildlife by making nature reserves. We make conditions in which the Old can be preserved. Whoever strives to bring the New will carry academia with them. If academia resists and drags in the opposite direction, they will build one anew. This is how all life grows, how everything evolves. In this discussion, the issue has been reversed, as if we can only move forward by transforming the existing husks completely. Then we ask, "What has a better chance of being saved - the Church or academia?" Logically, the Church is far closer to the idea of Christ, so we may suppose that it is the better bet for expending our energies. But again, how did we get convinced that humanity's future depends on the transformation of old wineksins in the first place? The New creates its own forms. It utilizes the existing materials, but it creates its form through fresh forces; it doesn't try to coax the old forms to shape-shift, such that they can become vessels for the new.

Cleric wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 10:32 pm But this only confirms the point I wanted to make. And it all comes due to the already established fact that everything is expressed from the standpoint of Imagination. This is clear from other statements too, such as: "Love is the vital element of profound knowledge, intuitive knowledge. Now, one cannot love evil. Evil is therefore unknowable in its essence. One can understand it only at a distance, as an observer of its phenomenology." Things get really mixed up here. Although it is spoken of intuitive knowledge, it is effectively accepted that we can only know evil by observing its phenomenology, which is practically still the astral condition. However, it is precisely in its essence that evil can be known, because ultimately, all beings spring from the Divine. Yet, we need the higher forms of cognition to trace these deep origins. So while it is true that on a lower level, it's far more important to work on the virtues rather than having completely abstract thoughts about the evil beings, such knowledge is nevertheless vital at the needed time. Otherwise, if we only expect to know evil by observing its phenomenology, as something that has no intersection with our essence, we form a blind spot. Then, later, even with our greatest effort to cherish good thoughts, feelings, and actions, we may feel assailed by quite the opposite, and it will be a dreadful experience, because we do not observe in the astral any phenomenology that sends them toward us. Again, this is not so much to speak against VT, but just to show how these subtle characteristics of MoT can be reinforced by those who teach them. Standing in the astral and believing that evil can only be quietly observed in its soul-physiognomy, without ever expecting to find it intermingled with our essence, is a recipe for disaster.

I will chime in here again briefly to point out that this is another instance where Tomberg's pedagogical style is misinterpreted as operating at the level of fact in the manner of Steinerian spiritual science. In saying that evil cannot be known it its essence, Tomberg is reiterating the injunction -- which you can find in Steiner -- that the deeper secrets of evil are not permissible to be communicated during this era. Evil "understood from a distance" in fact comprises a large portion of Michaelic spiritual science. All the forces of corruption, reincarnation chiefly among them, are secrets of evil. Lazarus-John is the "watchman at the edge of the realm" who flies out like an eagle, far into the outer limits of reality, to where nonbeing licks at the seams of God's creation. The initiates of this order live with their thinking in the very instrument of the cyclically recurring, decaying forms of time. There they find the Cross imprinted forever on the fabric of the cosmos, out of which spring the seeds toward the eternal realization of spiritual reality. To unite with evil at a deeper level than this at our current time and return to communicate it risks horrors so unfathomable that such a thing is simply "unknowable."

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 6:14 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 3:16 pm The point is that imaginative cognition and arcana cognition intersect but do not coincide. What I have described as astral CGOL referes to the arcana experience.

If it doesn't coincide with imaginative cognition, then what would you compare it to? You said it isn't comparable to lucid dreaming, presumably not to ingesting psychedelics or 'no-thought' meditations, either. What exactly is this astral CGOL, in your view? I understand you may want to quote Cleric again here, but the whole question is what he is describing, if not some form of imaginative cognition (or 'astral vision').

"Intersect but do not coincide" as in set theory, arcana cognition being the smaller set: ◎

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Thu Nov 06, 2025 2:49 am I will chime in here again briefly to point out that this is another instance where Tomberg's pedagogical style is misinterpreted as operating at the level of fact in the manner of Steinerian spiritual science. In saying that evil cannot be known it its essence, Tomberg is reiterating the injunction -- which you can find in Steiner -- that the deeper secrets of evil are not permissible to be communicated during this era. Evil "understood from a distance" in fact comprises a large portion of Michaelic spiritual science. All the forces of corruption, reincarnation chiefly among them, are secrets of evil. Lazarus-John is the "watchman at the edge of the realm" who flies out like an eagle, far into the outer limits of reality, to where nonbeing licks at the seams of God's creation. The initiates of this order live with their thinking in the very instrument of the cyclically recurring, decaying forms of time. There they find the Cross imprinted forever on the fabric of the cosmos, out of which spring the seeds toward the eternal realization of spiritual reality. To unite with evil at a deeper level than this at our current time and return to communicate it risks horrors so unfathomable that such a thing is simply "unknowable."

I would like to take advantage of my lower position here to ask you a question, Rodriel, which would otherwise get unasked. You have previously called yourself "no great seer", and stated that much of Steiner's results of spiritual-scientific inquiry is "still unverified content" for you. You have also said:

Rodriel wrote:Another thing I try to do, even when speaking to Anthroposophists, is to limit my communication of the esoteric to things I am able to personally corroborate. Though I do sometimes forget to do this, I make an effort to make clear where I am merely paraphrasing Steiner vs where I am speaking from a place of personal certainty.

Could you please make that effort for us now as well, with referece to your statements above? Are your drawing this understanding of the forces of corruption and nonbeing and this interpretation of how they were subtly negotiated by Tomberg in veiled but pedagogic key, from your own personal research and certainty, or are you adhering to, and elaborating on, the conceptions and contents of some other spiritual inquirer? Certainly, it can't be aswered that these conceptions are drawn from Tomberg's work, because ascertaining what Tomberg thought and meant is the very inquiry whose disputable results you are presenting us with in this thread.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Thu Nov 06, 2025 2:49 am I will chime in here again briefly to point out that this is another instance where Tomberg's pedagogical style is misinterpreted as operating at the level of fact in the manner of Steinerian spiritual science. In saying that evil cannot be known it its essence, Tomberg is reiterating the injunction -- which you can find in Steiner -- that the deeper secrets of evil are not permissible to be communicated during this era. Evil "understood from a distance" in fact comprises a large portion of Michaelic spiritual science. All the forces of corruption, reincarnation chiefly among them, are secrets of evil. Lazarus-John is the "watchman at the edge of the realm" who flies out like an eagle, far into the outer limits of reality, to where nonbeing licks at the seams of God's creation. The initiates of this order live with their thinking in the very instrument of the cyclically recurring, decaying forms of time. There they find the Cross imprinted forever on the fabric of the cosmos, out of which spring the seeds toward the eternal realization of spiritual reality. To unite with evil at a deeper level than this at our current time and return to communicate it risks horrors so unfathomable that such a thing is simply "unknowable."

I could agree if Tomberg's pedagogy was simply expanding on purely exoteric teachings, but he actually leads souls into the supersensible; he bestows esoteric wisdom and practical methods for phenomenological deepening. Entering the spiritual without proper understanding of good and evil is precisely the danger.

While there are certainly stages of Cosmic secrets that are to be brought to focus at the proper time, I cannot agree that "Evil "understood from a distance" in fact comprises a large portion of Michaelic spiritual science." It is one of the hallmarks of the Michael impulse in our age that it brings Cosmic (inner) understanding of evil. Not merely pictorial, not merely seeing demons and observing them from a safe distance, but comprehending the spiritual life that we are enmeshed in. "To unite with evil at a deeper level" - I would say this looks at things in the opposite way. We are already united, entangled. Evolutionary development has the task of differentiating these inspirative forces, to recognize their flavors and origins as they offer streamlines for our "I"-activity to flow in, from 'behind the back of our head'. This is what Michaelic Cosmic Thinking leads us to.

By the way, when speaking of evil, we tend to imagine the grossest manifestations - killings, injustice, lies, and so on. However, as Steiner has said, all evil is untimely good. Or we can use Federica's term of asynchronous manifestation. This is another reason why we vitally need not only phenomenological recognition of evil from a distance but also its intuitive side, the side of first-person spiritual activity. Not of the gross manifestations but of the innermost being. If we simply try to keep clean of images of gross evil, we are completely unprepared to recognize the noble origins of evil. If we think "I don't entertain thoughts and feelings about hurting anybody, thus I keep evil at a distance", we're looking only at the grossest signs. We remain insensitive to the timing of spiritual impulses.

When we enter the soulscape, and intend not to consider the deeper facts of the ideal world, we need an anchor, an 'origin of the coordinate system' within the astral (if we are not to become simply an astral projection junkie). The being of the Church, which we believe to be a pure aspect of Christ, offers such an anchor. It provides the root CA that the intellectual soul needs to feel secure, to have its stable center in open space. In this way, this astral being substitutes our direct relations with the Greater Guardian, which can not be approached only Imaginatively, but we need to ascend to Inspiration and Intuition. This leads toward true self-knowledge, true delamination of the inspirative currents that we let through our "I" as through a valve. That's what Michael gifts us. Not only Imaginative knowledge (which the intellectual soul is capable of gathering outside the body), but the true awakening of the spiritual soul, which leads us to self-consciousness of our "I"-activity as a selective valve or a 'railroad switch' for the multiplicity of inspirative and archetypal currents of Cosmic beings. These currents have different temporal characters. One says, "Hold fast to the Church-being and serve it. Astral consciousness is sufficient at this stage. The Church-being is your guarantor. As long as you tend to that seed, you are under the protection of Christ himself." Other currents say, "We have already entered an age where unconditional trust in the astral chain of the Church cannot serve properly humanity's development. Human beings must seek direct relations with the Divine, which is impossible without knowing something of the inspirative currents that compete to flow through our "I"-valve."

To fall a victim to Lucifer's illusions, means, not to be willing to advance to the stage of freedom, but to stop short, as God-Man, at a too early stage in evolution. To fall a victim to Ahriman's enticements, means, not to be willing to wait until the right cosmic moment has come at a definite stage of humanity, but to want to take this stage before its time.

Michael-Christ will stand in the future as the sign at the head of the way along which Man must travel in order to keep the right cosmic direction between the two Powers, of Lucifer and Ahriman, and so arrive at his World-destination.

Leading Thoughts
1. Man journeys on his way through the Cosmos in such a manner that his gazing-backward into the bygone world may be falsified by the impulses of Lucifer, and his thinking-forward into the future may be cheated by the enticements of Ahriman.

2. The right position towards Lucifer and his falsities will be found when Man imbues his whole mind, in respect both to knowledge and to life, with a sense of the Being and the Mission of Michael.

3. Thereby Man safeguards himself also against Ahriman and his lures. For that spiritual path, by which Michael directs Man's mind into external Nature, leads him to a right position towards Ahriman, because he finds the right realization of life in communion with Christ.

https://rsarchive.org/Books/GA026/Engli ... 6_c07.html

This summary precisely points to the asynchronistic nature of evil. And as we see, there's nothing here about gross evil. These are subtle inspirative forces that, if we are not prepared for their recognition, are simply taken for "what we are", we mistake them for our free inner activity. The Michaelic impulse is unthinkable without this deeper awakening of man within the interference of Cosmic intuitive currents (the upper cone). It's not about having images of evil. These, humanity has had forever. This Michaelic understanding is so central for proper entrance into the supersensible that, instead of being kept a secret, Steiner artistically exemplified to the World, through the Representative of Man.