Philosophical Speculations

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:42 pm How do you have "1-st-person-perspective experiences" of universal consciousness?
If it is universal consciousness, isn't it by definition outside your consciousness? Otherwise, you are just asserting solipsism.

Right, we can't. What we can have is only 1-st-person-perspective experiences that can be evidences of consciousness existing beyond physical human form (STE or NDE or likewise). Those most often can not be used as scientifically verifiable evidences, but can be sufficiently veridical to support personal contra-materialistic views. But of course, no amount of personal experience can prove the ontological primacy of consciousness, this will forever remain a conjecture. Even the Divine mind would have no way to prove to itself that there is no lower-level fundamental ("turtle") from which it could possibly emerge.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:41 pm

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:30 pm

Why would you think I came here to change your mind?

Why would I think you came here to change your mind?

I don’t. That was meant for Eugene. I must have not hit the quote button.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:41 pm

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:30 pm

Why would you think I came here to change your mind?

Why would I think you came here to change your mind?

Actually, it was meant for you: “I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ... “

I just wanted to clarify that isn’t my purpose here. I’m just here to answer questions and enter into dialogue when requested. Really, I don’t care about the opinions here. I was invited and have only responded to posts directed to me. When the last person has directed their last post to me I will have disappeared from this board.

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:41 pm

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:30 pm

Why would you think I came here to change your mind?

Why would I think you came here to change your mind?

Actually, it was meant for you: “I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ... “

I just wanted to clarify that isn’t my purpose here. I’m just here to answer questions and enter into dialogue when requested. Really, I don’t care about the opinions here. I was invited and have only responded to posts directed to me. When the last person has directed their last post to me I will have disappeared from this board.

Well, since no-one is going to change their mind, how about let's all move over to your youtube channel and you can play us some tunes on your axe, instead of everyone just grinding an axe?

When the last person has directed their last post to me I will have disappeared from this board.

Guys, did you hear that? Pls act accordingly

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:28 pm Instead hold on tight and take the ride. You really have no choice anyway since you can’t really hide from reality. As Nietzsche knew, music was for playing and dancing, nor analyzing, The irrationality of quantum waves are for surfing, not praying to, sheltering from, or imagining to be different. It leads to a different sort of knowledge, but the one that teaches us who we are and our place in the universe,.

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:28 pm First, could you tell me how you got either of those out of what I wrote?

I wasn't sure. That's why I asked. Perhaps I got it wrong. It seems to indicate we have no choice, no free will -- "take the ride".

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:28 pm The irrationality of quantum waves are for surfing, not praying to, sheltering from, or imagining to be different.

If we can't imagine things to be different doesn't that imply fatalism?

Eugene I wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:54 pm

When the last person has directed their last post to me I will have disappeared from this board.

Guys, did you hear that? Pls act accordingly

Nah, I feel quite a bit of affinity with Jeffrey, and no philosophical disagreement should change that, so despite my flippancy, I still welcome his participation, although I wish he might take an interest in other threads too.

Steve Petermann wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:57 pm

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:28 pm Instead hold on tight and take the ride. You really have no choice anyway since you can’t really hide from reality. As Nietzsche knew, music was for playing and dancing, nor analyzing, The irrationality of quantum waves are for surfing, not praying to, sheltering from, or imagining to be different. It leads to a different sort of knowledge, but the one that teaches us who we are and our place in the universe,.

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:28 pm First, could you tell me how you got either of those out of what I wrote?

I wasn't sure. That's why I asked. Perhaps I got it wrong. It seems to indicate we have no choice, no free will -- "take the ride".

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:28 pm The irrationality of quantum waves are for surfing, not praying to, sheltering from, or imagining to be different.

If we can't imagine things to be different doesn't that imply fatalism?

Fatalism would mean no choices. We have plenty of choices, including our attitude toward existence. We do not have a choice in what the universe actually is or even our innate nature as humans. We can choose to maneuver through this world in accord with it, we can chafe against it and howl against existence, or we can try to reduce it to a boring plainness. The universe doesn’t care if you try to deny or rebel against it, nor will it participate in its reduction. It will, however, show you its mystery and power, and you are invited to join in it. In in that chaotic and nondetermistic mystery is all the freedom you could ever want.

And that is where we escape nihilism, which was always with us, even when we pretended to have meaning. Real meaning comes from our own nature, which itself derives from the very essence of existence (Being). Authentic values can only arise out of what we are as part of the universe. That isn’t something that can be systematized, logically deduced, or put under an electron microscope. It is learned through deep and authentic esthetic experience, much as Beethoven alluded to in Ashvin’s quote above.

To surf the quantum waves is to embrace the mystery within the chaos and ride the wave in song or poem as the power and mystery sing through you. It is only in that experience we can learn who we are and our place in this mystery.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:54 pm

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:41 pm
Why would I think you came here to change your mind?

Actually, it was meant for you: “I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ... “

I just wanted to clarify that isn’t my purpose here. I’m just here to answer questions and enter into dialogue when requested. Really, I don’t care about the opinions here. I was invited and have only responded to posts directed to me. When the last person has directed their last post to me I will have disappeared from this board.

Well, since no-one is going to change their mind, how about let's all move over to your youtube channel and you can play us some tunes on your axe, instead of everyone just grinding an axe?

Why is the goal to change minds? It really should be to better understand our own thoughts and thinking through these issues, and that is only via dialogue with others who disagree and have logical arguments for why. No offense to anyone here but I much prefer threads which motivate broad participation and posts longer than one or two sentences and, if we are lucky, a link to a video. JW's involvement here and gracious responses to our posts has at least accomplished that. And my own previous post was a bit to dismissive and quick to overlook the pedagogical value here, so I retract that tone of it.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:17 pm

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:54 pm

JeffreyW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Actually, it was meant for you: “I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ... “

I just wanted to clarify that isn’t my purpose here. I’m just here to answer questions and enter into dialogue when requested. Really, I don’t care about the opinions here. I was invited and have only responded to posts directed to me. When the last person has directed their last post to me I will have disappeared from this board.

Well, since no-one is going to change their mind, how about let's all move over to your youtube channel and you can play us some tunes on your axe, instead of everyone just grinding an axe?

Why is the goal to change minds?

My goal is Mind's goal Notwithstanding JW's remark, I quote "Really, I don’t care about the opinions here"—apparently much like BK—I too value what he has to offer, while not agreeing with all of it, and if we were to sit down and share a beverage, perhaps with guitars in hand (even with these crippled hands), I suspect we'd find a lot more to agree about, and, who knows, perhaps even change each other in some meaningful way.