Philosophical Speculations

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:36 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:10 pm
We already found out with the "death of God", at least in the West and all places heavily influenced by the West. Nietzsche saw it clearly and it has been playing out exactly as he expected. An increasingly violent oscillation between totalitarianism and nihilism, with a very fine line between the two, and an explicit public disdain for anything which gives off a whiff of authentic spirituality. The Church is nowhere to be found except in various social and political "causes" that the average person couldn't care less about, while extreme political ideology fills the gaping hole left by it.

I mean, even you have stopped capitalizing His title and pronouns

LOL. I’ve never understood capitalising “god”. I guess it’s some people’s way of distinguishing him from ‘a god’, but there is only one, and that’s not his name . Yahweh I would capitalise, as I would Jesus, but I don’t think capitalising his name is high on the list of ways of paying respect to him.

I do get some of your point about “authentic spirituality”, and I’m sure there are people who go to church for cultural reasons. There is also often not enough contemplation, which applies to many of us who switch the TV on and watch ‘mind candy’ for hours on end. Prayer is often talking at god, asking for stuff, not really turning our hearts and minds to him. The church gets involved in political issues, thinking it would be wrong not to comment when the poor, those without justice, the marginalised etc, and wading into areas where the best policy in the long run for the poor, those without justice, the marginalised etc is really not as obvious as it may seem.

All these things and more are surely true. But equally many of this things are related to modern life. We’re used to things ‘on demand’, with ‘instant satisfaction’, with surface explanations that have just more details underneath. We’re used to the sum total of surface knowledge being vastly more than anyone can ever know in detail, and assuming that specialists will together do the hard lifting and give us a bite sized summary in 280 characters, or a 2 minute TV news story. The world is as it is mainly because of the choices us as individuals make, and it’s easy to find external scapegoats for that.

If you look at what really happens in churches in my experience, the VAST majority of priests have dedicated their lives to service of god and service of people. Many carry on working until they are simply no longer able, past their 80s. There are all kinds if spiritual ‘activities’, right from esoteric contemplation to exoteric praise. There is charity, so much work going on that it’s like a major state fully dedicated to helping those in need, the biggest charity organisation in the world by far.

Yes there are problems from time to time, and yes they don’t move with the spirit of the age. But maybe it’s the spirit of the age which is the problem. Consumer choice on steroids, overflowing to the extent we think its healthy to chose our own reality to suit us, swap our partner for one that suits our needs, make our god to suit our needs, even make ourselves as god. We have better standards of living than ever, better standards if health than ever, gadgets that would have seemed like magic yesterday, but are we actually any more content, any happier for all that?

It is definitely the spirit of the age which is the crux of the issue. The problems within the Church are not separate from that, only one of the more disturbing consequences. That is why Nietzsche was a character "not made for the age in which he lived" (Steiner). Or as Nietzsche himself put it, he "meets no one; this is a part of going one's own way. No one approaches to help him; all that happens to him of danger, accidents, evil and bad weather, he must get along with alone". The metaphysical split of polarity into duality disturbs any and all, secular, religious and everything in between. We cannot afford to underestimate its influence.

Steiner wrote:The [rationalists] have split man into body and soul, have divided all existence into idea and reality. And they have made the soul, the spirit, the idea, into something especially valuable in order that they may despise the reality, the body all the more. But Zarathustra says, There is but one reality, but one body, and the soul is only something in the body, the ideal is only something in reality. Body and soul of man are a unity ; body and spirit spring from one root. The spirit is there only because a body is there, which has strength to develop the spirit in itself. As the plant unfolds the blossom from itself, so the body unfolds the spirit from itself.

The most solemn people can and have been carried adrift by that current, perhaps especially the most solemn and ascetic people, as they have incorrectly assumed their ascetic ideals would insulate them from its all-pervading influence. That their righteous works are a substitute for faith in the process which transforms and renews creation. That humanity can continue living off the nourishment of its dead ancestors without truly bringing them back to life. The positive material developments you reference are all for naught if they cannot be undergirded by a truly metaphysical-spiritual transformation, and for that we must be more terrified of the forces at work within and without than we currently are - "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

The Church is nowhere to be found except in various social and political "causes" that the average person couldn't care less about...

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:41 am

The Church is nowhere to be found except in various social and political "causes" that the average person couldn't care less about...

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

Jesus was not an economist or politician. Your perspective is yet another consequence of the metaphysical split - the spiritual world has been so separated from the 'material' world and debased relative to the 'material' world that some can seriously conclude Christ was commenting on "food insecurity" in his sermons and parables. That his primary concern was for us to take up those "causes", rather than seriously assess ourselves as spiritual beings.

Beyond that, there is no reason to think joining a political or social "cause" will alleviate any of those 'material' problems people like to complain about these days, rather than contribute to them and make them worse, especially while our own individual houses are completely out of order. It's much easier to cynically criticize Western institutions, as opposed to constructively criticize them, than to take concrete action at the level of the individual soul-spirit.

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:41 am

The Church is nowhere to be found except in various social and political "causes" that the average person couldn't care less about...

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

Right on Brother. However, the Liberation Theology Catholics in Latin America do offer a different, pretty radical-left view and the Prosperity Evangelicals surely address (from the right) the material needs of common folk. Religious movements are pretty complex.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:38 am

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:41 am

The Church is nowhere to be found except in various social and political "causes" that the average person couldn't care less about...

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

Right on Brother. However, the Liberation Theology Catholics in Latin America do offer a different, pretty radical-left view and the Prosperity Evangelicals surely address (from the right) the material needs of common folk. Religious movements are pretty complex.

I agree with you there. Speaking of progressive Christianity, Tripp Fuller's Homebrewed Christianity podcast has some great stuff: https://trippfuller.com/podcasts/

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:58 am
It is definitely the spirit of the age which is the crux of the issue. The problems within the Church are not separate from that, only one of the more disturbing consequences. That is why Nietzsche was a character "not made for the age in which he lived" (Steiner). Or as Nietzsche himself put it, he "meets no one; this is a part of going one's own way. No one approaches to help him; all that happens to him of danger, accidents, evil and bad weather, he must get along with alone". The metaphysical split of polarity into duality disturbs any and all, secular, religious and everything in between. We cannot afford to underestimate its influence.

Steiner wrote:The [rationalists] have split man into body and soul, have divided all existence into idea and reality. And they have made the soul, the spirit, the idea, into something especially valuable in order that they may despise the reality, the body all the more. But Zarathustra says, There is but one reality, but one body, and the soul is only something in the body, the ideal is only something in reality. Body and soul of man are a unity ; body and spirit spring from one root. The spirit is there only because a body is there, which has strength to develop the spirit in itself. As the plant unfolds the blossom from itself, so the body unfolds the spirit from itself.

The most solemn people can and have been carried adrift by that current, perhaps especially the most solemn and ascetic people, as they have incorrectly assumed their ascetic ideals would insulate them from its all-pervading influence. That their righteous works are a substitute for faith in the process which transforms and renews creation. That humanity can continue living off the nourishment of its dead ancestors without truly bringing them back to life. The positive material developments you reference are all for naught if they cannot be undergirded by a truly metaphysical-spiritual transformation, and for that we must be more terrified of the forces at work within and without than we currently are - "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

I agree with the last part, but I know a bit about history and I think we should learn from some of the lessons of the 20th century. Much of what Marx wrote is logical and sounds like a great vision, getting rid of poverty, the resources of the nation being shared in collaboration rather than competition with each other etc. The trouble is that the reality is that everyone gets poor, the rich are replaced with political leaders, and moral laws are subsumed under the leader’s twisted interpretation of Marx. With Nietzsche I agree you have a far better understanding of reality and of people, but you have a similar phenomena where Hitler picked up his ideas, added the likes of Aryan nationalism and antisemitism, and again moral laws are subsumed under a twisted view of the ideology. Even a professional philosopher like Heidegger, who was directly influenced by Nietzsche, saw no problem with Hitlers reformulation of his ideas. I don’t know of anyone who stood up to the Nazi’s based on the fact that Hitler had twisted Nietzsche’s ideas (It’s possible there were some, but certainly nothing I’ve come across. There were however many whose boring old traditional and “metaphysically naive” (not my view) faith had not been updated to suit the spirit of the age, and risked their own lives based on that to smuggle jews out, to resist the warped ideology.

I’m certainly not claiming that the church is immune to this, it’s made up of people who are swayed by political currents just like everyone else. In the past when the church had secular power it attracted those people in society enamoured by power into the clergy, and ‘people + power’ is always a dangerous combination. It played a role in terrible persecution of Jews. I would argue that this was long ago when things were very different, but I was shocked to see a couple of US bishops essentially campaigning for Trump at the last election. They were swept up with extreme political polarisation not so differently from Heidegger in my example earlier.

Of course I’m not claiming Trump is the same as Hitler, and don’t want to get into politics as there are clearly issues with segments of the Democrats that they were reacting to. My point is more that individuals become disconnected from their compass when they’re promised a new and shiny future, when they’re told the problems are the fault of these people, these ideas, these organisations. When people have genuine concerns and challenges, they get easily swept along by visions of an idyllic future.

I agree with you that the average non spiritual person on the street thinks that the ontological choices are between monist materialism or a kind of dualistic faith. I also think the latter is a problem in the US specifically, where for historical reasons you have a kind of ‘testosterone’ christianity. It’s possible that a metaphysical shift away from a dualistic way of thinking could help this, but then again there is a risk that the ideology this is packaged in develops a life of it’s own, and transcends it’s original good intentions.

From my perspective, the problems of the world are within each of us. It takes sustained effort to keep your focus on fixing your own issues, and if everyone did that we would have a sustainable way forward that doesn’t rely on new ideologies full of good intentions to start with. As you say, "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Throughout the bible, god says that the way to find him is through a contrite and humble heart. This is the real ground of spiritual progress, and because it’s so difficult, at the start of each mass we say this;

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and
in what I have failed to do,

[Pray while striking the breast three times.]
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;

As Jordan Peterson says, if we each take genuine personal responsibility for ourselves, that’s far more transformative to the whole of society than each of us trying to find the best way for everyone else to change.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:15 am

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:41 am

The Church is nowhere to be found except in various social and political "causes" that the average person couldn't care less about...

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

Jesus was not an economist or politician. Your perspective is yet another consequence of the metaphysical split - the spiritual world has been so separated from the 'material' world and debased relative to the 'material' world that some can seriously conclude Christ was commenting on "food insecurity" in his sermons and parables. That his primary concern was for us to take up those "causes", rather than seriously assess ourselves as spiritual beings.

Beyond that, there is no reason to think joining a political or social "cause" will alleviate any of those 'material' problems people like to complain about these days, rather than contribute to them and make them worse, especially while our own individual houses are completely out of order. It's much easier to cynically criticize Western institutions, as opposed to constructively criticize them, than to take concrete action at the level of the individual soul-spirit.

The metaphysical split between the 'material' world and the spiritual world seems to be what is informing your perspective. Under idealism, there is no material world, so there is no dichotomy between the material world and the spiritual world. This is also what Nietzsche was getting at. Thus, in criticising immanence/transcendence and appearance/reality dualisms he writes:
'The concept of the “beyond”, the “true world” invented in order to devaluate the only world there is - in order to retain no goal, no reason, no task for our earthly reality! '

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:49 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:15 am

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:41 am

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

Jesus was not an economist or politician. Your perspective is yet another consequence of the metaphysical split - the spiritual world has been so separated from the 'material' world and debased relative to the 'material' world that some can seriously conclude Christ was commenting on "food insecurity" in his sermons and parables. That his primary concern was for us to take up those "causes", rather than seriously assess ourselves as spiritual beings.

Beyond that, there is no reason to think joining a political or social "cause" will alleviate any of those 'material' problems people like to complain about these days, rather than contribute to them and make them worse, especially while our own individual houses are completely out of order. It's much easier to cynically criticize Western institutions, as opposed to constructively criticize them, than to take concrete action at the level of the individual soul-spirit.

The metaphysical split between the 'material' world and the spiritual world seems to be what is informing your perspective. Under idealism, there is no material world, so there is no dichotomy between the material world and the spiritual world. This is also what Nietzsche was getting at. Thus, in criticising immanence/transcendence and appearance/reality dualisms he writes:
'The concept of the “beyond”, the “true world” invented in order to devaluate the only world there is - in order to retain no goal, no reason, no task for our earthly reality! '

Add to it an ascent bias that promotes spiritual bypassing of the nitty-gritty-dirty where the humus of humility is discovered and one produces a formula for good intentions becoming bad works.

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:49 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:15 am

JustinG wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:41 am

Jesus said "Whatsoever You Do to the Least of My Brothers You Do unto Me". Yet one in four US households experienced food insecurity last year, whilst 10 billionaires increased their wealth by more than $400 billion.

What kind of a modern society is it that a) regards this as normal and OK and b) deludes itself into thinking this is consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Religion has been called the opium of the masses. Perhaps metaphysical idealism sometimes serves as the opium of the privileged intent on keeping their eyes wide shut.

Jesus was not an economist or politician. Your perspective is yet another consequence of the metaphysical split - the spiritual world has been so separated from the 'material' world and debased relative to the 'material' world that some can seriously conclude Christ was commenting on "food insecurity" in his sermons and parables. That his primary concern was for us to take up those "causes", rather than seriously assess ourselves as spiritual beings.

Beyond that, there is no reason to think joining a political or social "cause" will alleviate any of those 'material' problems people like to complain about these days, rather than contribute to them and make them worse, especially while our own individual houses are completely out of order. It's much easier to cynically criticize Western institutions, as opposed to constructively criticize them, than to take concrete action at the level of the individual soul-spirit.

The metaphysical split between the 'material' world and the spiritual world seems to be what is informing your perspective. Under idealism, there is no material world, so there is no dichotomy between the material world and the spiritual world. This is also what Nietzsche was getting at. Thus, in criticising immanence/transcendence and appearance/reality dualisms he writes:
'The concept of the “beyond”, the “true world” invented in order to devaluate the only world there is - in order to retain no goal, no reason, no task for our earthly reality! '

Precisely. He was most concerned with debasing of the material world, but there is also debasing of the spiritual world, i.e. materialism, Marxism (which Nietzche took to task in "tarantulas" passage of Zarathustra), etc. Even certain forms of religious fundamentalism debase the spiritual world. This is why I am careful to point out the metaphysical split itself is the problem, rather than any particular worldview downstream of it - its an equal opportunity debaser of realms we exist in.

This is why I am careful to point out the metaphysical split itself is the problem, rather than any particular worldview downstream of it - its an equal opportunity debaser of realms we exist in.

Manifestation interdependly co-arises an evil twin.