Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 9:53 pm
Well as that statement is also provisional, one would more correctly say....'unless evidence is provided or a valid argument that they do'Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:53 pm
Well as that statement is also provisional, one might add ... 'until they do.'![]()
In which case, one can imagine Eugene's statement being made when heliocentrism was considered to be in the highly speculative category, and even after evidence and valid argument was provided ... Cleric can at least take heart that his speculation won't result in his head ending up in a basket.Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:09 pmWell as that statement is also provisional, one would more correctly say....'unless evidence is provided or a valid argument that they do'Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:53 pm
Well as that statement is also provisional, one might add ... 'until they do.'![]()
Eugene, plenty of information has been given here so anyone who had interest would have already grasped everything that you ask about. I'm sure it will be no different this time but for the sake of anyone else who may be reading, let me repeat why it's justified to speak of spiritual science.Eugene I wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:58 pm Now, if the spiritual science is committed to use the same verification method based on verifiable and reproducible experiences, then you should confirm that and then we can move ahead and scrutinize the claims of the spiritual science against such verifiable and reproducible experiences. If you can not confirm that, then please explain what other kinds of experiences the spiritual science accepts as verification criteria.
Why is it our burden to put in the effort for you? Go read Jean Gebser's The Ever-Present Origin and Barfield's Saving the Appearances and Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom and his lectures on the Inner Impulses of Evolution, and then get back to us with specific questions or challenges about the aspects of their arguments you did not understand or agree with. I will be posting a second part to this essay soon with relevant excerpts, but, given the a priori judgments I am seeing from you and Eugene in the posts here, I doubt that will do anything to change your mind. We will see.Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 4:57 pmOK, I can see you don't want to address any of my specific objections, fair enough. Instead you have offered 'special pleading' (Using arguments that appear to support your position, but ignoring or somehow disallowing the arguments against) and 'argument ad nauseam' (If you say something often enough, some people will begin to believe it.) and then end up with your piece de résistance 'argument by rhetorical question' (Asking a question in a way that leads to a particular answer). There are a couple more fallacies in there but we can leave it at that because you're playing your own game and are at liberty to do so.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:37 pmThere is no proper philosophy or science which does not start from experience and test results against experience. It's really a simple concept. Implicit in your statements above is that everyone's inner experience must be isolated to their own personal bubbles. But such an assumption is not coherent under idealism and only superficially reflective of our experience. It falls apart when we reflect more deeply on how it is that our ideal content is shared with others to make everything from communication to empathy possible. Western metaphysics has taken several turns for the "worse" in the last 2500 years, especially with the rise of nominalism, rationalism and materialism-dualism. Idealists like to assume they stand apart from those major detours, and that somehow they have managed to avoid being influenced by them, but nothing could be further from the truth. That is the bad habit which needs to be broken and soon. It is the habit of mind which convinces us we are only developing linearly without paradigmatic shifts, yet Thomas Kuhn has shown clearly why that is not the case. As Barfield says, "the obvious is the hardest thing of all to point out to those who have genuinely lost sight of it." Do we want to take the metamorphoses of consciousness seriously or only pay it lip service?Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 2:22 pm
Well that's certainly a personal opinion but the fallacy Cleric employed, remains, philosophically. Perhaps there's a forum somewhere called 'Spiritual Science' where you don't have to employ the philosophical method at all but I doubt Kastrup, after whom this forum takes its name, would put his name to it. I'm not for one moment suggesting it wouldn't be interesting, I think it would, but it would likely be chock full of any number of Spaghetti Monsters which would only say something about the believer rather than the 'thing' being discussed.
So I'll be able to verify those arguments and more through my own direct experience? Meaning, effectively, I am simply verifying my own experience......but then that's circular. Or maybe I can verify yours because it will be the same experience, right? That's what the scientific method aims for isn't it? Testable, verifiable, repeatable experiments which produce consistent results and can make predictions and are falsifiable......
....and then you'd be engaging in a form of solipsism wouldn't you? Because you'd have no other metric to reference other than your own experience. That's not science in any way that I understand. Not that I'm a fan of materialist science, I'm not, but it is useful at what it does when it stays within its domain of competence.
You then introduce and answer your own argument here, rather than one I have explicitly or implicitly made. It's called 'So you're saying....' However I can answer it for you by saying that it is discontinuous with the philosophical method we have employed for two millennia. Premises, conclusion, logic, valid and sound argument etc.
Well that's a good example of an ambiguous assertion.
I'm familiar with Kuhn's idea and as soon as you or Cleric come up with a coherent, logically argued paradigm changing philosophy which can stand up to scrutiny, any form of scrutiny will do as a start, then please let me know and I'd be happy to read it. That's not sarcasm, it's genuine because I am interested in ways that could help us to move out of an increasingly nihilistic materialism/consumerism. But it isn't going to happen by endless rounds of sophistry employing linguistic and semantic gymnastics. That's not where the rubber meets the road for the common man like me and as the Americans would say 'That dog just won't hunt'.
As Jung once noted "Not nature, but the "genius of mankind," has knotted the hangman's noose with which it can execute itself at any moment."
You are free to imagine whatever you choose but it would be wise never to include an 'Argument From Adverse Consequences' (Saying an opponent must be wrong, because if he is right, then bad things have/will/would ensue.) in an argument because it would be a logical fallacy.....Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:22 pm In which case, one can imagine Eugene's statement being made when heliocentrism was considered to be in the highly speculative category, and even after evidence and valid argument was provided ... Cleric can at least take heart that his speculation won't result in his head ending up in a basket.![]()
No, that sentiment is holdover from rationalism. What is needed is a solid spiritual foundation because we are spiritual beings. Philosophy and science, like everything else, serve our spiritual nature. People seek meaning and values first and foremost ahead of any sort of intellectual arguments. The meaning and values can only come from the Spirit which connects us with the Divine, because that is Reality. So if your bone to pick is with any discussion of spirituality, because you think it does not belong in the same place as metaphysical discussion, then just state that clearly. I have a feeling you won't, though, because down that road is inevitably rationalism-dualism and most people here already know that is sorely outdated and lacking.Eugene I wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 6:57 pm When professional-level science and philosophy leaves its academic circles and tries to reach to masses in order to make people more aware of its recent discoveries, it is often confronted by a massive amount of amateur-level pseudo-science and pseudo-philosophy. People without philosophical or scientific background who are not properly trained in these areas are often not able to differentiate between good quality professional level science or philosophy and the pseudo-one. We have seen an abundant amount of such pseudo-philosophies on Bernardo's older forum, and are also seeing them on this one. Any attempts to demonstrate the fallacies of these pseudo-philosophies to their inventors are rather useless and futile as they are typically not able to even understand the arguments that challenge them. Often these people have read quite a few books in the area, are familiar with basic concepts and seem to be able to speak in scientific and philosophical language, however that does not qualify them as scientists or philosophers. There was a guy on an older forum claiming to refute the Einstein relativity theory and presenting mathematical proofs for that, and it turned out that the guy did not even know how to add two vectors.
On another note, we are seeing the modern science and philosophy pushing beyond the reductionist limits of materialism. We are seeing significant developments in non-materialistic philosophy (idealism, panpsychism, neutral monism explored by many professional philosophers etc), and we are similarly seeing significant scientific research and developments in the areas of paranormal studies, NDE, reincarnation studies etc that are being done by properly trained and professional researchers. If we really want to challenge materialism and move the society away from it, a solid philosophical and scientific foundation needs to be developed to support that. Pseudo-science and pseudo-philosophy will actually be counter-productive and work against that movement, as it will make an impression that idealism is just another religion or pseudo-science/philosophy. This is why Bernardo (even though many of his views are still questionable) is trying hard to maintain high standards of professional philosophy in his works, and so far I can only applaud him in succeeding with that. And the best we can do as amateurs (and most of us here are amateurs in philosophy) if we really want to contribute to this movement is to stay away from pseudo-science and pseudo-philosophy.
As Shu has pointed out, this forum was called 'Metaphysical speculations'. I wouldn't call it philosophical but thinking forum. After all every act of knowing begins with thinking. Even before we know that there's such thing as philosophy we must first have thought about that. So thinking, our most immediate spiritual activity at the contemporary stage of development, precedes all formal systems of thought. In this sense, selecting one such system and deciding that it's only within its rules that the answers for the riddle of existence will be sought, is already a subset of thinking. If this is grasped, then we also recognize that it might be important to investigate the unconsciously accumulated layers which shape how and what we think.Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 12:22 pm The above is a fantastic example of a fallacy known as inflation of conflict. Arguing a certain point that the entire field of knowledge (philosophy) is "in crisis". It's a great way of avoiding any scrutiny and criticism of your claims but somewhat bizarre and beyond ironic to try it on a philosophy forum.![]()
If you are really interested in legitimate consideration of questions like the above, I invite you to take a look at The Philosophy of Freedom. But if you have well defined and undisputable boundaries for what knowing is, what philosophy can and can't know, and so on, then this work simply won't be understood. It's a thinking quest, reaching in for our innermost thinking core and peeling layer by layer the accumulated thought patterns that think instead of our real being.Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 12:22 pm So if you wish your claims to be taken seriously, philosophically, on a philosophy forum, then it may be wise to consider the audience you are attempting to address. Otherwise you're presenting another narrative of spiritual ideation. Which is fine and it is interesting, but please don't blow smoke when legitimately challenged.
What I expect is for you to put the effort into an actual argument that contains premises and conclusion that can be examined to determine if they are valid and sound. Then I will put the effort into reading it.
You are confused Ashvin. A philosophical argument will potentially change my mind, not your posturing or your morality. You are now just reaching into Ad Hominem territory, try a coherent argument, one that can be challenged, then 'We will see.'......
For a start you could try thinking of something that does not involve a 'Bad Analogy' (Claiming that situations are highly similar, when they aren't.) Your belief system has no similarities to the invention of the jet engine, or nuclear weapons, or computers, or 3D movies etc etc or in fact anything to do with human history. You must establish, by argument, why your premises and conclusions are valid and sound. There is no other way to succeed in a philosophical argument.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:42 pm The paradigmatic shift of the 20th century is quite obvious in science-technology, art-entertainment, psychology, philosophy, etc. In fact, it would be easier for me to state what major developments of that century did not reflect the metamorphic process we are describing. Right now I cannot even think of any.
Unfortunately you are simply describing a lineage of development here which does precisely nothing to support your particular and actual claims. Iain McGilchrist could use the same argument, or Richard Dawkins, or Philip Goff, etc etc.....would all their claims be correct because they described a lineage? No, of course not, they would have to rely on the content of their particular claim like anyone else.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:42 pm Take Donald Hoffman for example - none of what he is doing in challenging physicalism and scientifically exploring the dynamics of conscious agents would be possible without the philosophy, science and technology which came before him and gave him the concepts, language, math, etc. to pursue such lines of inquiry.
I have read about a third of it but then had to give up because I ran out of paper on which to note the number of fallacies, assumptions, mischaracterisation of Kastrups work etc and I'd rather be persuaded by a good argument, like Kastrups, who actually does know how to put together and defend a philosophical claim.