Philosophical Speculations

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:02 pm But to get to the heart of the matter, I don't believe there is a spiritual layer\wrapper of immortal ideas or hierarchy of beings. This may be what distinguishes me from Ashwin and Cleric.

Not allowed. But, even if you would believe in just that that, it would not be enough. What distinguishes Anthroposophy (at least as it is presented on this forum) is an interesting combination of high degree of intellectualism with strictly sectarian approach where even 1% deviation from Steiner's teachings is considered a complete heresy, combined with a conviction that only they know the truth and the true way to know it, and everyone else who do not fully subscribe to their teachings don't have a clue. Whith all my respect to Steiner's writings, and he indeed had a lot of valuable insights and practical methods, I will never subscribe to such sectarian approach.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:02 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:21 pm

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:21 pm It's not practical, and likely impossible, to set as a goal something one does not understand, especially if it's merely a set of flowery words. All we can do is select something high and noble - and go for that.
However, this is a spiritual\metaphysical forum - we can set our goal to be enlightenment, Oneness, The Kingdom, Non Duality, etc. - we are blessed to even consider these as our highest and most noble goal - even if we don't entirely understand them.
If one is walking through a forest and on occaision sees a glimpse of a glistening castle, it's enough to set our goal to approach and enter that castle - we don't have to concern ourselves with what we may find within it's wall, or beyond.
It's a blessing to have these discussions, and it's a blessing to find humor in differences in folk's speculations re what lies around the next corner.
Hey - we are a hoot.

Lorenzo,
I agree with Ashvin, but I'm still posting a comment just to say that it's nice to see you using a metaphor!!
But other than that, your description of the forest and the castle would work if we were kids, and reality was an amusement park. But soon enough the park will close its doors, and one is left dealing with, well... reality. And reality requires that we do our best work, and some more, to get it right and to be worthy of what we were gifted with. Or better: not to become the thieves of what we were entrusted with.

What's a meta for (ha ha)?
re this amusement park, I don't think it's shutting down anytime soon.
and I guess I'm more of a practical fella' - I attend to what is close at hand and don't pursue what might or could be.
But to get to the heart of the matter, I don't believe there is a spiritual layer\wrapper of immortal ideas or hierarchy of beings. This may be what distinguishes me from Ashwin and Cleric.

Well, the thing is that nobody needs to believe that these spiritual layers and these hierarchies exist.
So you are right not to believe in vague ideas. What Ashvin and Cleric say is that, if one applies oneself and does the exercises, and develops imaginative thinking, there will be no need to believe in the spiritual layers. Because they will be seen and experienced.
But the difficult part is that it's necessary to do lots of exercises first. And it's difficult to find the motivation if one is not sure that it will be possible to experience the hierarchies and the spiritual layers. That's why, as you say, only a few do it! (as of today)

Even when we are 100% convinced that we would get results, it's difficult to find the motivation to do exercises (for example at the gym), so you can imagine, when we doubt that the experience will be there, how difficult it can be to find the motivation We are laughing but in reality it's a tragic situation.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:01 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:41 pm What is within this perspective which keeps losing interest at the threshold of the inner workings of its intimate spiritual activity? That is how we begin to approach higher cognition and spiritual worlds proper. There is no chance if we want to 'play nice', placating and pacifying, and making everyone feel good about their current state of being and their choice of path, wishfully hoping they all merge together after death. This is clearly not the way of Christ. That way requires real, concrete, actionable inner sacrifices in pursuit of the Kingdom, and it's not a matter of indifference what sort of sacrifices are made. There are many substances and practices which can dissociate us from the ego and bring immediate relief from the 'separate me' struggles of existence, but those are not genuine sacrifices worthy of the Kingdom.

Absolutely right, it requires consistent everyday practice, including meditation, prayer, higher cognition development, and applying the results in everyday life. The ego complex, remaining in subconscious and propelled by its karmic thinking patterns, constantly produces desires, thoughts, and drags us into daydreaming mindless mode where we lose awareness of our Self. Our work consists in developing higher spiritual cognition, training to remain in awareness/mindfulness and connection to the higher realms and the Self, and continuously remaining in such awareness during daily activities, it includes deciphering the phenomena produced by the ego and continuously sacrificing them without identifying with them. But to do that efficiently, we need to inquire deeply into the mechanics of how the ego complex functions, and this meditation on "separate me" in this topic is to do exactly that.

If you ask me, all of this is the main focus of my life. As I said, I meditate 1-2 hours a day and then attempt to remain in that state achieved in meditation during the rest of the day. I play music and draw on weekends to relax and develop my aesthetic layers of cognition, but that is not my main focus. I will not be discussing personal spiritual experiences on public forums, and this is my right to do that, but I'm interested in discussing the methods of spiritual practice. And by the way, this thread was supposed to be a discussion on one of the meditation methods for spiritual practice.

Your position so far was: if I do the spiritual practice not exactly word-by-word how it was described by Steiner, or do any practices that were not described by Steiner, then I do it all wrong. I do not agree with that, this is a very sectarian approach. I do include Steiner's methods and exercises offered by Cleric in my practice, but I will not be discussing the results on the forum and reporting them to you because you are not my spiritual teacher. In the authentic spiritual traditions the spiritual experiences of students can only be discussed in private with the teachers, and I am adhering to this practice. But let's put it to rest: the fact that I'm refusing to discuss the results and experiences of spiritual practices does not mean I am not interested or not doing the practices. I am actually interested and I am doing them all the time.

I haven't asked you to follow any specific spiritual practices or report your results here (except when you mentioned you keep hitting obstacles with Cleric's exercises, which reporting then revealed you had completely changed the exercise). I don't think I have ever suggested a practice to do or a specific book/lecture for you to read, other than PoF. Our aim has been much more basic and humble. That is, to help draw your attention to the fact that you are not already on the path to higher cognition, and that you have deep misunderstandings about the lawful interrelation of the spiritual realms with the physical plane, reflected in the discontinuities you keep referencing between the 'inorganic human form' and the Divine Self. This points to a discontinuity between your spiritual activity as experienced from within and your activity as conceived by the intellect from without. Everything we have written so far has been circling around this one basic aim. It is here where you appear to lack any interest in reconciling the inner contradiction. All the comments about Steiner, sectarianism, etc. are simply excuses and projections, because Cleric has provided reams of phenomenological explorations of spiritual activity here, independently of Anthroposophy and Steiner's exercises. Of course spiritual reality is not itself fragmented into different streams, so anyone genuinely exploring the higher worlds will reach overlapping methods and conclusions.

Yet you studiously avoid this fact whenever I bring it up and, instead, "agree" with everything Cleric writes as a way to casually dismiss it. Is it not sectarian, in practice, to encapsulate oneself in personalized preferences and remain closed off to anything which threatens to expand those interests? That is exactly the reason why we have religious sects today. We shouldn't delude ourselves that we are 'accepting' all different paths when we are actually rejecting to even consider what those other paths are. It simply isn't possible, based on your extensive comments here (for ex. #4 from the OP), that you already understand what phenomenology of cognition and higher cognition is pointing to. But you have convinced yourself that everything we are speaking of has already been grasped so that you never have to lift another finger to do the hard work of actually grasping it. This isn't a personal criticism, because what I just wrote is the history of modern philosophy, science, and religion in a nutshell. It's the same thing over and over again. People want their current state of knowledge and their current understanding to be the final word, so they never have to do the hard work of transforming themselves inwardly. The 'separate me' intellectual exercise (according to your own OP), as all three of us have commented, with various explanations why, is exactly a way of avoiding inner sacrificial transformation which adopts responsibility instead of running away from it.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:11 pm I haven't asked you to follow any specific spiritual practices or report your results here. I don't think I have ever suggested a practice to do or a specific book/lecture for you to read, other than PoF. Our aim has been much more basic and humble. That is, to help draw your attention to the fact that you are not already on the path to higher cognition, and that you have deep misunderstandings about the lawful interrelation of the spiritual realms with the physical plane, reflected in the discontinuities you keep referencing between the 'inorganic human form' and the Divine Self. This points to a discontinuity between your spiritual activity as experienced from within and your activity as conceived by the intellect from without. Everything we have written so far has been circling around this one basic aim. It is here where you appear to lack any interest in reconciling the inner contradiction. All the comments about Steiner, sectarianism, etc. are simply excuses and projections, because Cleric has provided reams of phenomenological explorations of spiritual activity here, independently of Anthroposophy and Steiner's exercises. Of course spiritual reality is not itself fragmented into different streams, so anyone genuinely exploring the higher worlds will reach overlapping methods and conclusions.

Yet you studiously avoid this fact whenever I bring it up and, instead, "agree" with everything Cleric writes as a way to casually dismiss it. Is it not sectarian, in practice, to encapsulate oneself in personalized preferences and remain closed off to anything which threatens to expand those interests? That is exactly the reason why we have religious sects today. We shouldn't delude ourselves that we are 'accepting' all different paths when we are actually rejecting to even consider what those other paths are. It simply isn't possible, based on your extensive comments here, that you already understand what phenomenology of cognition and higher cognition is pointing to. But you have convinced yourself that everything we are speaking of has already been grasped so that you never have to lift another finger to do the hard work of actually grasping it. This isn't a personal criticism, because what I just wrote is the history of modern philosophy, science, and religion in a nutshell. It's the same thing over and over again. People want their current state of knowledge and their current understanding to be the final word, so they never have to do the hard work of transforming themselves inwardly. The 'separate me' intellectual exercise (according to your own OP), as all three of us have commented, with various explanations why, is exactly a way of avoiding inner sacrificial transformation which adopts responsibility instead of running away from it.

Ashvin, you are crossing the borders, nobody appointed you to be a spiritual teacher for other people. We can discuss philosophy, teachings and practices, we can make suggestions for people who ask for advice or help, but you have no right to direct people in their spiritual practice, correct their mistakes and control their minds without them explicitly asking you to do that. This, by the way, is another hallmark of sectarian approach where the leaders assume a full right to control the followers' minds. Yes, Cleric is suggesting exercises in addition to Steiners (and quite good ones by the way) but the sectarian approach remains - if we do not subscribe to them and follow them exactly while abandoning any other spiritual practices, then we are doing it all wrong and you have right to interfere with our spiritual practice and direct us on our path without us asking you to do that for us. This is unacceptable and nobody wants to do it this way with you except for very few. And guess what? Why do you think after so long time of preaching Anthroposophy in this sectarian way you have so few people subscribed? Before I started writing here a few weeks ago you had 1.5 people writing on the forum in addition to you and Cleric. My guess is that it is not because of Anthroposophy per se, but because of your sectarian approach, which I don't believe Steiner would support if he would be alive today.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:23 pm

lorenzop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:02 pm But to get to the heart of the matter, I don't believe there is a spiritual layer\wrapper of immortal ideas or hierarchy of beings. This may be what distinguishes me from Ashwin and Cleric.

Not allowed. But, even if you would believe in just that that, it would not be enough. What distinguishes Anthroposophy (at least as it is presented on this forum) is an interesting combination of high degree of intellectualism with strictly sectarian approach where even 1% deviation from Steiner's teachings is considered a complete heresy, combined with a conviction that only they know the truth and the true way to know it, and everyone else who do not fully subscribe to their teachings don't have a clue. Whith all my respect to Steiner's writings, and he indeed had a lot of valuable insights and practical methods, I will never subscribe to such sectarian approach.

Eugene, should you ever decide to change your forum username again in the future, may I suggest "Toreador"?

Federica wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:29 pm Eugene, should you ever decide to change your forum username again in the future, may I suggest "Toreador"?

That's a good one. I am a tireless fighter for spiritual freedom (and yes, freedom always comes with responsibilities)

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:29 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:11 pm I haven't asked you to follow any specific spiritual practices or report your results here. I don't think I have ever suggested a practice to do or a specific book/lecture for you to read, other than PoF. Our aim has been much more basic and humble. That is, to help draw your attention to the fact that you are not already on the path to higher cognition, and that you have deep misunderstandings about the lawful interrelation of the spiritual realms with the physical plane, reflected in the discontinuities you keep referencing between the 'inorganic human form' and the Divine Self. This points to a discontinuity between your spiritual activity as experienced from within and your activity as conceived by the intellect from without. Everything we have written so far has been circling around this one basic aim. It is here where you appear to lack any interest in reconciling the inner contradiction. All the comments about Steiner, sectarianism, etc. are simply excuses and projections, because Cleric has provided reams of phenomenological explorations of spiritual activity here, independently of Anthroposophy and Steiner's exercises. Of course spiritual reality is not itself fragmented into different streams, so anyone genuinely exploring the higher worlds will reach overlapping methods and conclusions.

Yet you studiously avoid this fact whenever I bring it up and, instead, "agree" with everything Cleric writes as a way to casually dismiss it. Is it not sectarian, in practice, to encapsulate oneself in personalized preferences and remain closed off to anything which threatens to expand those interests? That is exactly the reason why we have religious sects today. We shouldn't delude ourselves that we are 'accepting' all different paths when we are actually rejecting to even consider what those other paths are. It simply isn't possible, based on your extensive comments here, that you already understand what phenomenology of cognition and higher cognition is pointing to. But you have convinced yourself that everything we are speaking of has already been grasped so that you never have to lift another finger to do the hard work of actually grasping it. This isn't a personal criticism, because what I just wrote is the history of modern philosophy, science, and religion in a nutshell. It's the same thing over and over again. People want their current state of knowledge and their current understanding to be the final word, so they never have to do the hard work of transforming themselves inwardly. The 'separate me' intellectual exercise (according to your own OP), as all three of us have commented, with various explanations why, is exactly a way of avoiding inner sacrificial transformation which adopts responsibility instead of running away from it.

Ashvin, you are crossing the borders, nobody appointed you to be a spiritual teacher for other people. We can discuss philosophy, teachings and practices, we can make suggestions for people who ask for advice or help, but you have no right to direct people in their spiritual practice, correct their mistakes and control their minds without them explicitly asking you to do that. This, by the way, is another hallmark of sectarian approach where the leaders assume a full right to control the followers' minds. Yes, Cleric is suggesting exercises in addition to Steiners (and quite good ones by the way) but the sectarian approach remains - if we do not subscribe to them and follow them exactly while abandoning any other spiritual practices, then we are doing it all wrong and you have right to interfere with our spiritual practice and direct us on our path without us asking you to do that for us. This is unacceptable and nobody wants to do it this way with you except for very few. And guess what? Why do you think after so long time of preaching Anthroposophy in this sectarian way you have so few people subscribed? Before I started writing here a few weeks ago you had 1.5 people writing on the forum in addition to you and Cleric. My guess is that it is not because of Anthroposophy per se, but because of your sectarian approach, which I don't believe Steiner would support if he would be alive today.

Again, just because that is what you say is happening, doesn't mean it is. We were answering your questions and complaints about inner obstacles to realizing leeway in the 'dualistic self', Eugene. In fact, lately we have been asking you questions, to give you a chance to elaborate your views sufficiently, and then trying to help you see where and why your answers are all conflicting with one another. These conflicts obviously exist and are plain for anyone to see. But whenever I point it out, you say "oh you misunderstood" or "oh I didn't mean that", etc. At least be honest with yourself - if you don't want to seek answers because they are uncomfortable and too demanding of your current nature, then at least be honest that is the reason you lack interest and don't externalize blame on Steiner, us, or sectarians, like you did with the 'Demiurge'.

You view spirituality as a set of models, theories, teachings, etc. that people should subscribe to or reject, like on the YT channels you shared, and then project that thoroughly intellectual approach onto us. Then you think we are "unsuccessful" because we haven't subscribed people to what you view abstractly as spiritual theories. You simply can't imagine that there is a spiritual approach which is a transformational way of life, rooted in living experiences of the archetypal realms as they project into Earthly experience. We aren't selling books or subscriptions. If 1,000 people join the forum and "agree" with our comments, like you always do, but fail to take the first step towards inner WFT transformation, then we have attained absolutely nothing. But if one person, like Federica, does make that first step, then we know the riches which such an event can bestow on the Kingdom of God.

"To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it? It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade."

I'm also not sure why you have decided to treat someone writing on the forum as half a person

I'm also not sure why you have decided to treat someone writing on the forum as half a person

It's an abstract mathematical average if you have any sense of humor
Crime and punishment! Abstract mathematics is not allowed in Anthroposophy!

So, to wrap up:
- I wanted people on the forum to be more aware about nonduality, and I consider my activities here complete. We discussed this topic in sufficient details.
- I am interested in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices as I see them having a lot of useful material. But because of the sectarian approach chosen by the leaders of this forum I will not be further actively participating. I may answer Cleric's questions, it looks that we had a constructive dialog recently, but I will not be responding to Ashvin's posts, not because of any personal issues, but because I do not subscribe to the sectarian way that Anthroposophy is presented here by Ashvin.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:14 pm

I'm also not sure why you have decided to treat someone writing on the forum as half a person

It's an abstract mathematical average if you have any sense of humor

So, to wrap up:
- I wanted people on the forum to be more aware about nonduality, and I consider my activities here complete. We discussed this topic in sufficient details.
- I am interested in further studying Anthroposophy texts and practices as I see them having a lot of useful material. But because of the sectarian approach chosen by the leaders of this forum I will not be further actively participating. I may answer Cleric's questions, it looks that we had a constructive dialog recently, but I will not be responding to Ashvin's posts, not because of any personal issues, but because I do not subscribe to the sectarian way that Anthroposophy is presented here by Ashvin.

Yes, today is Fat Tuesday and the last day of Carnival

BTW, I just asked ChatGPT these questions . . . question text from above post by Ashwin . . . how close\far off is ChatGPT from intended?
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what does this mean - "Through higher cognition, we can discern precisely the planetary spheres and non-corporeal beings we journey through across the threshold, both on ascent and descent."
--

The statement you provided is using figurative language to describe the concept of higher consciousness and the idea that there are non-physical realms or dimensions that can be accessed through spiritual or mystical experiences. Here is a breakdown of some of the key ideas in this statement:

"Higher cognition" refers to a state of consciousness that is beyond ordinary perception and thought. This could include experiences of heightened awareness, altered states of consciousness, or mystical experiences.

"Planetary spheres" and "non-corporeal beings" are references to spiritual or metaphysical realms that are believed to exist beyond the physical world. These concepts are often associated with various spiritual or esoteric traditions.

"Across the threshold" is a metaphorical way of describing the transition from one state of consciousness or reality to another. This could refer to experiences of death and rebirth, spiritual awakening, or other transformative experiences.

"On ascent and descent" suggests that there is a dynamic interplay between different states of consciousness and different realms or dimensions. This could mean that we move between these states and realms in a cyclical or spiral-like pattern, or that we can choose to intentionally explore these different states and realms in order to gain greater understanding and insight.

Overall, the statement is suggesting that by accessing higher levels of consciousness, we can gain insights into the nature of the universe and our place within it, and that there are non-physical dimensions or realms that can be explored through spiritual or mystical experiences.

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what does this mean - "We can discern the qualities and capacities they resonate with so that our continuity of consciousness can be prolonged, and we can remain in a wakeful state as we plan our next incarnation, seeding its curvatures of potential. As mentioned many times before, this work of developing those capacities which are as treasured gold across the threshold can only be done on Earth."
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The statement you provided is using metaphorical language to describe the idea of developing spiritual capacities that can help a person navigate the transition from one life to the next. Here is a breakdown of some of the key ideas in this statement:

"Continuity of consciousness" refers to the idea that a person's consciousness can continue beyond physical death and into the next incarnation or lifetime.

"Wakeful state" suggests a state of consciousness that is alert and aware, rather than unconscious or asleep.

"Seeding its curvatures of potential" is a metaphorical way of describing the idea of setting intentions or creating a blueprint for the next incarnation. This could mean that a person's thoughts, emotions, and actions in this life can influence the circumstances and opportunities that they will encounter in the next life.

"Capacities which are as treasured gold across the threshold" suggests that there are certain spiritual qualities or capacities that are highly valued in the non-physical realm, and which can help a person navigate the transition from one life to the next. These might include qualities like wisdom, compassion, or spiritual insight.

"This work of developing those capacities which are as treasured gold across the threshold can only be done on Earth" suggests that the physical realm provides a unique opportunity for spiritual growth and development, and that it is only through physical embodiment that a person can develop the capacities that are necessary for navigating the transition to the non-physical realm.

Overall, the statement is suggesting that by developing certain spiritual capacities during one's lifetime, a person can prolong their continuity of consciousness beyond physical death and into the next incarnation or lifetime. The metaphorical language suggests that this process involves setting intentions, cultivating spiritual qualities, and navigating the transition to the non-physical realm with wakefulness and awareness.