Philosophical Speculations

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:29 am On all esoteric paths, for ex, we encounter the Guardian of the Threshold. This is a wakeful, concrete experience of our inner soul-entanglements, accumulated through our incarnations, made objective knowledge for us.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God (1 John 4)
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. (2 Corinthians 11:14)
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)

If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
(1 Corinthians 13:2)
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22)
"I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17)
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13)

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)
It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. (Acts 1:7)
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa[1] forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"
"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."
"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.
Simsapa Sutta

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:57 pm
So, there is a reason we are cut from the knowledge of the world structures on higher levels while in the human body. The lesson here for us to learn is not to gain the knowledge of structures, but to return to the unity with the Divine Self and learn to Love.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:47 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:57 pm
So, there is a reason we are cut from the knowledge of the world structures on higher levels while in the human body. The lesson here for us to learn is not to gain the knowledge of structures, but to return to the unity with the Divine Self and learn to Love.

Ok so (a) you can't point to any concrete experiential knowledge of the world structures and (b) you have oscillated back to saying we are cut off from higher knowledge while incarnate. Except you add the twist that it is a good thing to be cut off from knowledge of the structures which give us increasingly concrete experience of how we are One, which alone inspires genuine Love. In fact it is a good thing to the extent we are morally unprepared, as revealed by the Guardian and other higher cognitive experiences, but only IF we use that revelation to work on transforming ourselves so that we are better prepared.

It makes no sense that knowing our inner soul qualities in an increasingly objective way, or experiencing the time-organism of our life body in full consciousness, is something to run away from on the path to Self-knowledge. All the speculations about deceptive hierarchies can only be an expression of one's subconscious desire to avoid the hard work of inner transformation on Earth. Just like the Kantian divide, it cements the excuse by claiming any suggestion to become aware of this subconscious desire must itself come from the deceptive hierarchy. So, as we have pointed out many times before, in your view the good "loving" hierarchy wants us to remain in complete ignorance of our soul-structure which is also the Cosmic structure.

After a few rounds of questioning, it is always revealed that this is your deeper subconscious motive for all the posts. You start off saying higher cognition is essential for our spiritual growth and then when concrete examples are presented, you realize they challenge your preferences and so you default to the Demiurge theories. This last post is the most stark example. Why not admit at this point that you view all concrete attempts to attain higher cognitive knowledge as evil in some way and that's why you resist it? At least that way we don't need to waste time pretending you are accepting of the higher cognitive path only to find later you view it with a hyper cynicism which blocks all opportunities to logically reason through its methods and results.

Eugene 1 wrote:And as I said many times, the all-encompassing approach is to pursue towards both approaches: strive to expand the boundary within the realm of structures/curvatures by using spiritual scientific approach, and at the same time strive to reach to the transcendental by using the mystical approach. They never contradict to each other but go in harmony when used properly.

Eugene 2 wrote:So, there is a reason we are veiled from the knowledge of the world structures on higher levels while in the human body. The lesson here for us to learn is not to gain the knowledge of structures and speres, but to return to the oneness with the Divine Self and learn to Love.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:58 pm And maybe you can also explain why you oscillate so heavily between opposite positions within the course of a single thread. Is that what we also have to look forward to when pursuing your path of Oneness?

Eugene 1 wrote:And as I said many times, the all-encompassing approach is to pursue towards both approaches: strive to expand the boundary within the realm of structures/curvatures by using spiritual scientific approach, and at the same time strive to reach to the transcendental by using the mystical approach. They never contradict to each other but go in harmony when used properly.

Eugene 2 wrote:So, there is a reason we are veiled from the knowledge of the world structures on higher levels while in the human body. The lesson here for us to learn is not to gain the knowledge of structures and speres, but to return to the oneness with the Divine Self and learn to Love.

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:05 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:58 pm And maybe you can also explain why you oscillate so heavily between opposite positions within the course of a single thread. Is that what we also have to look forward to when pursuing your path of Oneness?

Eugene 1 wrote:And as I said many times, the all-encompassing approach is to pursue towards both approaches: strive to expand the boundary within the realm of structures/curvatures by using spiritual scientific approach, and at the same time strive to reach to the transcendental by using the mystical approach. They never contradict to each other but go in harmony when used properly.

Eugene 2 wrote:So, there is a reason we are veiled from the knowledge of the world structures on higher levels while in the human body. The lesson here for us to learn is not to gain the knowledge of structures and speres, but to return to the oneness with the Divine Self and learn to Love.

Because once you directly connect with the Divine Self and His Love, it becomes safe for you to gain more knowledge, this knowledge will not harm you and will not make you more prideful. Yet, it is not necessary in this human life, it is auxiliary, you can still do it if you want to, but it is not expected from you. That is why Christ and Buddha never tasked us with gaining any esoteric knowledges of higher spheres, but only tasked us to connect with the Divine and its Love, this is the primary spiritual goal of our human incarnation.

There are thousands of NDE accounts, and there is a common message almost all of them bring to us. In the afterlife many of them experience communication with the Divine beings and experiencing overwhelming Divine Love and Oneness, and also report that they gain insights in the universal knowledge and was able to understand everything there is to know. Yet, when they return to human body, they all say that they can remember their experience of Love and Oneness, but completely forget the knowledge. There is a reason for that, we are not allowed to have this knowledge in the human form, these are the rules of this human realm that we agreed with when we agreed to incarnate. Also, when NDErs have the life review, there is only one criterion when reviewing what we did in our life: it is how we were able to love. Lack of knowledge was never a problem during any life reviews. Again, we are here on Earth primarily to learn how to connect with the Divine and how to Love. If we also want to gain knowledge, be it secular or esoteric, we can also do it according to the limits defined for us, but that is auxiliary, and only beneficial and safe for us if it is accompanied with the progress in the direct knowledge of the Divine Love and Essense.

When, in meditation — in accordance with the exercises given in the book Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its Attainment — you draw near to the world of Imagination, when, that is, as a result of your strivings, your etheric being begins to emerge from your physical being and this first super-sensible member begins itself to possess a kind of consciousness, you can as it were, “catch” yourself at a stage that lies between ordinary sense-perception and Imaginative vision. You have not yet advanced to a fully developed Imaginative vision, but you are on the way to it. We will now suppose that a man who is already on the way to Imaginative vision goes into some high mountainous region that is particularly rich in primeval silicious rock. Forces of soul will be readily quickened in him where there is an abundance of quartz-containing silicious rock. Certain inner faculties of soul can, as it were, suddenly spring to development as a result of a vivid impression caused by silicious rock on high mountains. Ordinarily, this kind of rock is slightly transparent, slightly translucent. But when our faculties of soul have pressed forward to the stage of which I have spoken — at that moment silicious rock becomes wholly transparent. We climb up on to a high mountain, and behold, the silicious rock appears to us with the transparency of glass. We feel moreover that something is streaming out from our own being and uniting with it. Here, at the outermost surface of the Earth, by a kind of natural surrender of our consciousness we become one with the whole Earth's surface. It is as though our eyes were sending out rays that enter right into the silicious rock; and in that moment we begin to feel ourselves one with the whole Earth. When we have this experience, beginning at the same time to feel ourselves one with the whole World, with the Cosmos, then, if we are to attain, not to a dream, nor to any abstract thought, but to a first actual realisation of oneness with the Cosmos, we must carry the experience further. An inner consciousness can light up within us which I may perhaps express in the following words. “Thou, O Earth, art not alone in the World-All! Thou, O Earth, together with me and all the other beings upon thee, art verily one with the great World-All!” Living in this experience of oneness with the silicious rock, we no longer see the Earth separated from the rest of the Universe. We see the Earth as an ether-sphere, emerging from the sphere of the cosmic ether.

This is a first feeling that can come over us. Many an ancient song, many an ancient myth, brimful of wonderful revelations, rings to us across the ages from a literature born in the time when mankind was possessed of instinctive clairvoyance. People read these songs and myths to-day, and like to persuade themselves that they are uplifted in heart and soul by what they read. But the truth contained therein eludes them. It is quite impossible to experience, or to have any insight into the real mood and feeling of the Bhagavad Gita, for example, or of other Indian and Oriental literature, without having at least begun to learn, through spiritual knowledge, in how real a sense man can become one with the Earth and thereby one with the Cosmos. Many a time the mood of such a song will have been born from a realisation of oneness with the Cosmos, a kind of “going in consciousness” with the light — even with the light that penetrates the hard silicious rock, so that now the light enfills and permeates it with the human soul itself, making this hard rocky substance into a cosmic eye through which man gazes out into the wide expanses of the Cosmos.

It is indeed so, that when out of real knowledge we begin to describe super-sensible man, we find ourselves quite naturally turning away from abstract, theoretical expressions. We cannot help speaking a language in which the whole feeling-content of the human soul is united with the ideas. In all our study of super-sensible man we must realise in the depths of our hearts that knowledge of the super-sensible cannot be clothed in words without making will and feeling one with the thoughts and ideas, without letting our whole being pour into the words. Life has, we all know well, to be endured and much that life brings is hard to bear. But for one who is conscious of the deeply human quality of super-sensible knowledge, the thing that is hardest of all is to listen to this super-sensible knowledge being expressed in theories and abstractions. The pain that is caused him by hearing people speak of the super-sensible world in a theoretical manner, is just like the physical pain caused to a finger by putting it into a flame.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:46 pm Yes, we are here on Earth to learn how to connection with the Divine through Love. But modern man has confused "how" for abstract theories, models, and vague mystical feelings. He takes pleasure in the abstractions while those on the higher cognitive path are pained by such abstractions. He projects his abstract way of knowing onto the ancients as well and refashions the ancient scriptures in his intellectual image. On the higher cognitive path is where we can find concrete, feeling-imbued Oneness and Love if we are willing to sacrifice the intellectual persona who craves sensuous gratification and allow the Divine Word to inflow our cognition and purified soul life, i.e. the Virgin Sophia.

I am crucified with Christ, but I live, yet not I anymore, but Christ liveth in me (Galatians 2:20)

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:46 pm When we have this experience, beginning at the same time to feel ourselves one with the whole World, with the Cosmos, then, if we are to attain, not to a dream, nor to any abstract thought, but to a first actual realisation of oneness with the Cosmos, we must carry the experience further. An inner consciousness can light up within us which I may perhaps express in the following words. “Thou, O Earth, art not alone in the World-All! Thou, O Earth, together with me and all the other beings upon thee, art verily one with the great World-All!” Living in this experience of oneness with the silicious rock, we no longer see the Earth separated from the rest of the Universe. We see the Earth as an ether-sphere, emerging from the sphere of the cosmic ether.

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:21 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:46 pm Yes, we are here on Earth to learn how to connection with the Divine through Love. But modern man has confused "how" for abstract theories, models, and vague mystical feelings. He takes pleasure in the abstractions while those on the higher cognitive path are pained by such abstractions. He projects his abstract way of knowing onto the ancients as well and refashions the ancient scriptures in his intellectual image. On the higher cognitive path is where we can find concrete, feeling-imbued Oneness and Love if we are willing to sacrifice the intellectual persona who craves sensuous gratification and allow the Divine Word to inflow our cognition and purified soul life, i.e. the Virgin Sophia.

I repeat again and again that the knowledge of the Divine Self and Oneness that Christ was pointing us to is a direct experiential first-person-perspective living gnosis and has nothing to do with any abstract theories. And the way to reach to this experiential gnosis is exactly to crucify our "persona", which is our separate self and the sense of separation from the Divine.

I am crucified with Christ, but I live, yet not I anymore, but Christ liveth in me (Galatians 2:20)

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:00 pm But -- the infamous BUT -- would the bolded type make sense to someone without the direct first-person experience? Or would it have to be aspirational as in "faking it until making it." Nevertheless, perhaps abstract ideals function to place us on a path leading to a challenge to more fully plunge into direct experience ... or not. I'm not putting anything down (lower or higher), just saying that metamorphosis has its own timing. Short of direct experience, it is surely useful to start preparing for the possibility. Meditation, contemplation, sacred medicines and dying can be hopeful and helpful.

Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:26 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:00 pm But -- the infamous BUT -- would the bolded type make sense to someone without the direct first-person experience? Or would it have to be aspirational as in "faking it until making it." Nevertheless, perhaps abstract ideals function to place us on a path leading to a challenge to more fully plunge into direct experience ... or not. I'm not putting anything down (lower or higher), just saying that metamorphosis has its own timing. Short of direct experience, it is surely useful to start preparing for the possibility. Meditation, contemplation, sacred medicines and dying can be hopeful and helpful.

Right, until the actual authentic experience is attained, it is faith that will give us the aspiration, prayer that will open our souls to the meeting with the Divine, sacrificing anything personal that does not align with the Divine that will clean the room in our souls for the Divine Spirit to enter, and then the ideas and meanings that we get from the scriptures and from the masters' guidance will be the road signs and pointers to steer us in the right direction. But "faking it" and trying to make up some spiritual experiences by ourselves is not a good idea, we can easily deceive ourselves.