Philosophical Speculations

Lou wrote:

AshvinP wrote:This is why you should read Gebser... because we are talking about two completely different things. I am talking about the evolution of phenomenal consciousness (non meta-cognitive) in what we call "pre-history" and the evolution of 'access consciousness' (meta-cognitive) in history. I'm claiming our thoughts and perceptions of the world are radically different today from those of our ancestors 3,000 years ago when meta-cognitive consciousness was evolving 'rapidly'. And I am claiming that was the driving force behind the development of Axial Age civilization. Finally, I am claiming the type of 'rational consciousness' we are familiar with today fully developed only about 500 years ago.

"YES! We are talking about different paths of development. I am not denying that the path you describe is in fact the path of the dominant civilization. Surely it is the path of the dominators, who also write the history. What I'm challenging is that it was the only or the best or the 'more evolved'. Yes, it certainly seems like 'progress' from the standard of materialist technology of humans but I'm not so sure from the perspective of the full community of life or from the present global need for humans to be consciously aware as planetary citizens."

In a very real sense, it is the only path. Everyone, including the Kogi, have inherited these 'mutations' of consciousness which brought self-awareness and abstract intelligence. The only difference it seems (from the Wiki page), which is a big one, is that the Kogi may have managed to avoid a good deal of trials and tribulations of "Younger Brother" starting in the late Middle Ages and proceed to a more 'integral consciousness', or at least maintain a more mythic consciousness, without intervening rationalism/materialism which influenced most other populations of the world.

The Younger Brother and Elder Brother conceptualization is very interesting. It maps well on to the story of Cain and Abel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel
"In the biblical Book of Genesis, Cain and Abel are the first two sons of Adam and Eve.[1] Cain, the firstborn, was a farmer, and his brother Abel was a shepherd. The brothers made sacrifices to God, each of his own produce, but God favored Abel's sacrifice instead of Cain's. Cain then murdered Abel, whereupon Yahweh punished Cain by condemning him to a life of wandering. Cain then dwelt in the land of Nod (נוֹד‎, 'wandering'), where he built a city and fathered the line of descendants beginning with Enoch."

Santeri Satama wrote:I don't prioritize social, cultural, commercial or political 'events'; I don't prioritize history, meta-cognition and language.

Pointing to erosion of topsoil, 'over-population', disease, etc. as the core reasons for the rise and fall of civilizations would be prioritizing those 'events' IMO. There is certainly a feedback between evolution of consciousness, reflected in the evolution of language, and the realm of 'events', but we must guard against the rationalist/positivist tendency to frame human history exclusively in terms of the latter.

Great 'points', Ashvin!

Ashvin ... thanks for carrying on this discussion here. I would recommend that any ongoing discussions in the old forum be continued here, since the ability to comment in the old forum will be disabled in the coming days, so might as well switch them to here sooner rather than later, perhaps with a link to the pertinent page in the old forum, since further comments here will just become more and more out of context.

With that in mind, for references purposes, here's a link to the original 'Civilization and Consciousness' discussion

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:33 pm

Santeri Satama wrote:I don't prioritize social, cultural, commercial or political 'events'; I don't prioritize history, meta-cognition and language.

Pointing to erosion of topsoil, 'over-population', disease, etc. as the core reasons for the rise and fall of civilizations would be prioritizing those 'events' IMO. There is certainly a feedback between evolution of consciousness, reflected in the evolution of language, and the realm of 'events', but we must guard against the rationalist/positivist tendency to frame human history exclusively in terms of the latter.

Courtroom argumentation vs. blather of a schitzo criscrossing and mixing all and any layers... Your Honor, I'm guilty of All!

To make myself purrfectly clear, causal loops on on the sphere of biological reproduction, and on the other hand necessary conditions on the metaphysical sphere need not be mixed beyond recognition. I'm largely OK with the customary causal loops as they are and don't see reason to tweak them in big way. Evolution of human consciousness needs to adapt and negotiate with animal, plant, mushroom etc. spirits, in mutual coexistence and coevolution, being a good shepherd is a servants job with limited and well-defined responsibilities, not for bossy self-importance.

What great battles are going on in the spirit realms (if any), I can't really tell, but if you look into that carefully, it's the usual story of story behind story behind story of the bottomless rabbit hole conspiracy. I prefer need-to-know basis and this sort of warrior path.

SS wrote:To make myself purrfectly clear, causal loops on on the sphere of biological reproduction, and on the other hand necessary conditions on the metaphysical sphere need not be mixed beyond recognition. I'm largely OK with the customary causal loops as they are and don't see reason to tweak them in big way. Evolution of human consciousness needs to adapt and negotiate with animal, plant, mushroom etc. spirits, in mutual coexistence and coevolution, being a good shepherd is a servants job with limited and well-defined responsibilities, not for bossy self-importance.

There's nothing "casual" about suggesting all of Western religion, philosophy and civilization since the time of Plato/Aristotle can be reduced to an exercise of imperial domination and ultimately useless "truth-seeking" behaviors. Maybe that's not what you believe, but you sure fooled me. Mixing in a little more metaphysics sounds like exactly what is needed to balance out such a perspective.

Dana,

Thank you for helping set this place up with a such an awesome format and features! I'm loving it so far. Now I just need to figure out a wise quote to put in my footer...

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:10 pm There's nothing "casual" about suggesting all of Western religion, philosophy and civilization since the time of Plato/Aristotle can be reduced to an exercise of imperial domination and ultimately useless "truth-seeking" behaviors. Maybe that's not what you believe, but you sure fooled me. Mixing in a little more metaphysics sounds like exactly what is needed to balance out such a perspective.

Well, maybe the casual without "" is the collateral damage of the "Manifest Destiny"?

SS wrote:Well, maybe the casual without "" is the collateral damage of the "Manifest Destiny"?

The ethics of it all is a separate question. To reduce or not to reduce, that is the question.

The Younger Brother and Elder Brother conceptualization is very interesting. It maps well on to the story of Cain and Abel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel
"In the biblical Book of Genesis, Cain and Abel are the first two sons of Adam and Eve.[1] Cain, the firstborn, was a farmer, and his brother Abel was a shepherd. The brothers made sacrifices to God, each of his own produce, but God favored Abel's sacrifice instead of Cain's. Cain then murdered Abel, whereupon Yahweh punished Cain by condemning him to a life of wandering. Cain then dwelt in the land of Nod (נוֹד‎, 'wandering'), where he built a city and fathered the line of descendants beginning with Enoch."

YES! My point is that dominant imperial colonial civilization IS the diaspora of Cain consciousness across the earth and that not all of Abel consciousness was extinguished. Some of it fled the terror of Cain to create a non-expansionist non-aggressive non-dominating civilization dedicated through materialist self-limitation and specialized leader training to performing the sacred purpose of holding together life on earth and in the process developed a sustainable agriculture and society lasting peacefully in traditional form for more than 1000 years. This is a feat the no modern culture or civilization can come near. Yet, we moderns consider them as 'primitives' by virtue of the victors writing the history books.