Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

Cleric K wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 6:28 pm Imagine a person sitting on a couch in a dark room and holding a tablet. He sees only the screen and instinctively touches it, navigating through apps, the internet, etc. The person says: "These movements on the screen just appear. There's no force that I can know, which is responsible for them." The man on the couch is our spirit which is completely unconscious of itself. He only observes the movements on the screen and half-consciously slides his finger around. When asked, he types in the chat with his fingers (which he doesn't see) "The words just appear, there's no one typing them". Yes, we can never see the hands typing but we can experience the will which is reflected in the appearing symbols on the screen. That's why I said that the agent can only be known from within. When the man begins to pay attention to his willing he gradually discovers a whole new volume of inner movements orthogonal to the screen. The man comes to know himself through the inner experience of the degrees of freedom of his will, just as a blind man can know his body and its degrees of freedom from within, even though he doesn't see it.
I don't know anyone for whom this metaphor applies: quite the opposite, people think\feel they own the items around them, and they are the owners and authors of their actions. According to major religions, this 'error' is the source of human suffering.
Abraham, thinking he was rich with cattle and sons, trudged up the mountain to offer everything he had, and offer everything he was ever going to have, give everything up for a taste of Knowledge . . . only to learn he owned nothing, he didn't own his actions.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by Cleric K »

lorenzop wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 2:31 am I don't know anyone for whom this metaphor applies: quite the opposite, people think\feel they own the items around them, and they are the owners and authors of their actions. According to major religions, this 'error' is the source of human suffering.
Abraham, thinking he was rich with cattle and sons, trudged up the mountain to offer everything he had, and offer everything he was ever going to have, give everything up for a taste of Knowledge . . . only to learn he owned nothing, he didn't own his actions.
You are still beating the same old strawman as if we are trying to promote the external husk of existence. This has been addressed so many times, for example here and here (to the latter you did not respond so I don't know what you think about it).

Now imagine that at the mount Jehovah-Jireh, Abraham had concluded: "So I possess nothing, I am nothing, I don't own my actions. Nothing is real, nothing matters." Then Abraham sits on the mountain, crosses his legs, and waits for life to pass by. The Bible would have ended there. The ultimate wisdom has been pointed out, there's nothing more to add.

But in reality, this crucial moment, this Initiation of Abraham, is only the starting point of his true mission. Now that he has overcome all the egoic tendencies he is free and worthy to become a worker of God. To be a worker of God means to sacrifice our personal life and make it an outlet for higher Divine life.

The man on the couch is not a symbol for our separate and drunk on self-importance ego (who has simply attained the skill of introspection), but for the Cosmic dimension of our being - which is increasingly collective (One Consciousness, remember).

If Abraham had simply concluded that he is nothing, that he is doing nothing, then the man on the couch - which at its deepest aspect is God who spoke to him - would remain completely shrouded in darkness. Abraham would have simply kept seeing forms on the tablet screen coming and going.

Imagine Abraham sitting there and doing nothing. God speaks to him: "Get up, we have work to do. Humanity has sunk deep into the constraints of the physical spectrum, it is endangered of becoming sclerotized. We need to let the spring of Divine Life flow again, so that it can irrigate the physical lattice, make it pliable to the Spirit once again." Abraham replies: "But I already sacrificed everything! What more do you want me to do? I'm nothing, I'm no doer. I can't do any work. That would be an illusion. Doing something would be a denial of the fundamental truth of no-being, no-doing. If you want something done, do it yourself, don't bother me. I'm over this existence."

Now think in this way: by refusing to become an outlet of the Divine Plan, Abraham actually affirms his stubborn ego (even though on words he denies it). He tries to preserve his Earthly perspective of a comfortable no-doing spectator.

This is the point that any modern mystic should seriously meditate on. Whether we like it or not, even if we strive for the unmanifest, we are still a character within the flow of existence. We still affirm some position. Even if we act a no-doing statue, this still has repercussions for the World flow. The stone statue that we are can still get in the way of other people. They trip unto us, fall, and say "Can't you pose elsewhere?"

We once again arrive at the recurring question: what makes you think that the no-doing, no-thinking state at the edge of sleep is not yet another dark husk, which prevents the Divine Life from flowing? Wouldn't it be an even greater denial of self, if we could freely make ourselves a continuation of the Divine works?
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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In the latter link above - you refer to astral vision . . . are you suggesting that abilities (ie astral vision) are baked into self?
By 'baked into self', I mean part of our essence and identity, who we are. By 'baked into self'. I mean astral vision (and perhaps other abilities) is not a sensation or experience - it is self.
This may be an issue of semantics - for example the phrase from Vedic literature I've used elsewhere 'All This is nothing but That' . . . all things and all being are seen as self . . . since there is no non-self, there is no self. This utterance is not referred to as 'astral vision'.
'astral vision' as I might use the term refers to clairvoyance, decerning objects and events not present to the senses.
'astral vision' is therefore dependent upon the existence of objects and other being, time and space . . . requires at least a patina of ignorance or non self . . . is not in opposition to 'All This is nothing but That' - there will always be that faint remains of ignorance.
'astral vision' is an ability that can be developed even without and independent of a pure heart and mind.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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lorenzop wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:07 pm In the latter link above - you refer to astral vision . . . are you suggesting that abilities (ie astral vision) are baked into self?
By 'baked into self', I mean part of our essence and identity, who we are. By 'baked into self'. I mean astral vision (and perhaps other abilities) is not a sensation or experience - it is self.
This may be an issue of semantics - for example the phrase from Vedic literature I've used elsewhere 'All This is nothing but That' . . . all things and all being are seen as self . . . since there is no non-self, there is no self. This utterance is not referred to as 'astral vision'.
'astral vision' as I might use the term refers to clairvoyance, decerning objects and events not present to the senses.
'astral vision' is therefore dependent upon the existence of objects and other being, time and space . . . requires at least a patina of ignorance or non self . . . is not in opposition to 'All This is nothing but That' - there will always be that faint remains of ignorance.
'astral vision' is an ability that can be developed even without and independent of a pure heart and mind.
In a sense, yes, as long as there's any consciousness at all, there's something to be conscious of, thus there's still some mystery that we don't encompass as the essence of self. We have spoken here before that conscious phenomena stand as testimonies about what we still do not intuit of existence, thus it stands as a riddle.

But in that sense I don't see why would you ask the question of vision being baked into the self. Can you give any example at all of something that is "part of our essence and identity, who we are"? We know that this won't be possible. Because in your thinking, if there's still any experience of existence, we're still manifested (and thus the at least faint patina of ignorance). The only true essence is found by being uncreated, but then also experience ceases, or alternatively stated, it stretches into the Light of Eternity and Infinity.

So you see, at the deepest level we don't have any disagreements with the mystical insight. It is all valid. Where there's still a difference is in that we say that human beings are impatient and want to be uncreated right here, right now. Thus they are willfully mistaking losing consciousness at the threshold of sleep for being uncreated. Instead, what we say is that the One Cosmic Self has to go the whole way of being uncreated. This is the title of Asvhin's essays - retracing. The Self's uncreation work is not exhausted by simply loosening a few of the layers of the Earthly personal psyche and then dropping unconscious, but it has to undress the World. In this process it understands how the World is manifested in the first place. In that sense, astral vision is baked into the self in same sense as the experience of our thought life is baked into our ordinary self.

As long as you believe that by flirting with the threshold of dropping unconscious, you become uncreated and approach the most fundamental essence of the Self, it won't be possible to find common ground. You'll have to think of an alternative approach - instead of becoming more and more unconscious (and thus the whole of existence becomes irrelevant and illusionary), you become more and more conscious of how the activity of MAL manifests the World. Then your quest for the Self continues, but by retracing the creative steps that have differentiated the Eternal potential for existence. So the Self is approached not by losing consciousness but by consciously expanding and becoming the Fountainhead that the Self is.
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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Your paraphrasing\rephrasing of my POV is baffling and can't respond to that . . . not sure what you are referring to re 'uncreated' or 'losing consciousness' or 'dropping consciousness' . . . I have not used these phrases . . . 'dropping consciousness' is not desirable.
Re 'astral vision' and whether this capacity is baked into the Self or is of the body\mind patina is a moot point . . . my point, distilled, is that for 99.9999% of human beings 'astral vision' is countless spiritual pay-grades beyond current spiritual needs.
Most people are looking for healthy relationships and a decent night's sleep.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by Cleric K »

lorenzop wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 5:25 pm Your paraphrasing\rephrasing of my POV is baffling and can't respond to that . . . not sure what you are referring to re 'uncreated' or 'losing consciousness' or 'dropping consciousness' . . . I have not used these phrases . . . 'dropping consciousness' is not desirable.
Re 'astral vision' and whether this capacity is baked into the Self or is of the body\mind patina is a moot point . . . my point, distilled, is that for 99.9999% of human beings 'astral vision' is countless spiritual pay-grades beyond current spiritual needs.
Most people are looking for healthy relationships and a decent night's sleep.
I don't see why you should be baffled. Even Eugene stated the obvious - that your position is practically nihilistic.

You have stated quite more than once that, as far as Truth and Reality are concerned, the contents of experience are of no value. They are falsities upon falsities and anyone who uses these contents as a kind of mirror reflecting deeper reality that consciousness can grow into, is convicted of being a gold digger. This narrows things down to the extent that the only thing worth pursuing is the state that is practically non-existence (since if there's consciousness of existence there are still gold nuggets floating around). I simply used synonyms for this state that you aim for in your meditations, where you basically strive to uncreate existence, and you have also said that as soon as you close your eyes, there's no longer experience, thus my synonym of unconsciousness. In that sense, the state that you are aiming for is like being one foot into death - in the way that the materialist conceives it - as cessation of all existence.

If you disagree with any of this, you may simply explain what value you find in the null state in your meditations. Is it something that simply makes life more bearable (like wellness technique)? Or it has more far-fetching consequences?

Another interesting point - since you are ambivalent on the question of afterlife - what about suicide? This is the quickest route to the non-existence of samadhi. Why prolong suffering in this false world? Or one should refrain from this move as a kind of insurance, just in case one is wrong and there's afterlife, karma, etc. after all?
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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I have not suggested that 'the contents of experience are of no value', I have not suggested banishing or dropping experiences of the world or dropping consciousness - - I have suggested the value of adding unboundedness of Being to life. Adding the Unboundedness of Being is the source of freedom and liberation, also is a path to correct and life supporting thoughts and actions.
Yes, I have suggested that offering development of astral vision, clairvoyance under the guise of spiritual development is the offering of a shiny golden calf and calling it spiritual growth - I stand by that claim.
Re 'wellness' an 'wellness techniques' . . . there are 1000's of books and advisors who can help here.
I am ambivalent re the afterlife. Not sure why you are asking about suicide - - - do you know anyone in favor of suicide?
the expression 'non-existence of Samadhi' makes no sense
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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lorenzop wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 7:49 pm I have not suggested that 'the contents of experience are of no value', I have not suggested banishing or dropping experiences of the world or dropping consciousness - - I have suggested the value of adding unboundedness of Being to life. Adding the Unboundedness of Being is the source of freedom and liberation, also is a path to correct and life supporting thoughts and actions.
Yes, I have suggested that offering development of astral vision, clairvoyance under the guise of spiritual development is the offering of a shiny golden calf and calling it spiritual growth - I stand by that claim.
Re 'wellness' an 'wellness techniques' . . . there are 1000's of books and advisors who can help here.
I am ambivalent re the afterlife. Not sure why you are asking about suicide - - - do you know anyone in favor of suicide?
the expression 'non-existence of Samadhi' makes no sense
OK, Lorenzo.

Even though you speak of Unboundedness of Being, you still accept the boundary of Earthly existence as unquestionable. This paints the picture of dissociated bubbles who can only be certain of their interior. The unboundedness that they talk about is simply fuzzying the sense of a boundary. This is confirmed by the fact that even after this alleged expansion into unboundedness, they still can't be sure if other bubbles even exist - they may be simply dream paintings on the inner wall (see the conversation between BK and Michael James).

As long as you feel fully comfortable in this bounded state of the 'Unbounded' Being and don't even question it, it will be difficult to find common language. If you ever come to feel that this last boundary that the Earthly self holds fast can also be broken on our way to the True Self, then we'll have a lot to talk about.
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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lorenzop wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 7:49 pm Yes, I have suggested that offering development of astral vision, clairvoyance under the guise of spiritual development is the offering of a shiny golden calf and calling it spiritual growth - I stand by that claim.

There is still the question of whether there is anything, other than 'adding unboundedness of Being', that is not a shiny golden calf in the pursuit of spiritual growth?

You mentioned that people don't need 'astral vision', they are looking for healthy relationships and decent sleep. When I have trouble sleeping or restless sleep, it's precisely because there are mysterious soul currents dragging my thoughts and feelings around in chaotic patterns and I lack any creative capacity to harmonize them. We are trying to help you realize that your mental picture of 'astral vision' is not what it is, and that the human spirit can be creative within the soul space that is always there and modulating its normal states. I think even Eugene would tell you this is not some vision of exotic objects and floating spiritual beings that we add to our perceptions of rocks, trees, animals, and so forth, but rather it is the process of gaining holistic insight into the very soul processes that are responsible for dysfunctional relationships and pathological sleep conditions and countless other aspects of daily existence.

But this whole domain of reality in the here and now will simply remain an inexplicable caricature for you until you are ready to acknowledge there is something beyond the sphere of your current spiritual experience, something beyond the 'unboundedness of Being' that has been made into the ultimate and impenetrable golden calf.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

Cleric K wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 8:52 pm
lorenzop wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 7:49 pm I have not suggested that 'the contents of experience are of no value', I have not suggested banishing or dropping experiences of the world or dropping consciousness - - I have suggested the value of adding unboundedness of Being to life. Adding the Unboundedness of Being is the source of freedom and liberation, also is a path to correct and life supporting thoughts and actions.
Yes, I have suggested that offering development of astral vision, clairvoyance under the guise of spiritual development is the offering of a shiny golden calf and calling it spiritual growth - I stand by that claim.
Re 'wellness' an 'wellness techniques' . . . there are 1000's of books and advisors who can help here.
I am ambivalent re the afterlife. Not sure why you are asking about suicide - - - do you know anyone in favor of suicide?
the expression 'non-existence of Samadhi' makes no sense
OK, Lorenzo.

Even though you speak of Unboundedness of Being, you still accept the boundary of Earthly existence as unquestionable. This paints the picture of dissociated bubbles who can only be certain of their interior. The unboundedness that they talk about is simply fuzzying the sense of a boundary. This is confirmed by the fact that even after this alleged expansion into unboundedness, they still can't be sure if other bubbles even exist - they may be simply dream paintings on the inner wall (see the conversation between BK and Michael James).

As long as you feel fully comfortable in this bounded state of the 'Unbounded' Being and don't even question it, it will be difficult to find common language. If you ever come to feel that this last boundary that the Earthly self holds fast can also be broken on our way to the True Self, then we'll have a lot to talk about.
By assigning a name 'Earthly existence' to (whatever you're talking about), you are necessarily giving (whatever you're talking about) a boundary - - as compared to Venusly existence, Saturnly existence or anything that is not Earthly existence - - - this is what it means to give a thing a boundary.
If a thing has an identity or specific essence - if there is something that is not it - it has a boundary.
Re bubbles and walls - I'm not following the metaphor as it relates to what I wrote..
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