Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by Cleric K »

lorenzop wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 2:51 pm If you are asking ( using an example from materialism) can there be, or can one develop an Earth Consciousness . . . where a finite mind can know the ethos of the planet, know the ethos of all earth beings, perhaps know the contents of mind of all earth beings . . . Yes I suspect this is possible, and I can see how this state could be seen as quite desirous.
However, a being in such a state could (still) be unsettled and envious of unbounded consciousness, and true freedom and liberation.
So then the thought might be - I need to 'capture' more territory . . . Solar System consciousness, Galaxy consciousness . . . it never ends.
(I think) You are proposing that CC can be fully realized through development and expansion of thinking . . . maybe this is possible, but I think it's treacherous and difficult.
The question is: Can one think one's way to CC?
I'm voicing the more traditional approach - - proposing calmness\silence is the means -- or perhaps a 'moment of Zen' (silence by another means)
Here we should make a distinction.

On one side you rightly speak of a finite mind developing Earth Consciousness, Solar consciousness, etc. In a sense, we as human beings are still a small sphere nested within these greater and greater spheres of inner space. For a human being to have Earth consciousness it is like attuning our sphere anchored at our physical complex to the greater Earth sphere. In this way, something of the Earth being is able to be stepped down and translated into human gestures. This is the task of the spiritual scientist and you are fully right that this is difficult (and could indeed be treacherous if we venture blindly into these realms).

On the other hand, we should conceive of the Earth consciousness as a holistic being on its own - an autonomous level of CC. Not as a human sphere that has been 'upgraded' with Earth consciousness sensations, but as CC consciousness that naturally belongs at that scale.

When you say 'capture' more territory, this sounds as if the being that is doing the capturing is lawfully destined to consciously know itself only at its particular scale (for example, human scale). Knowing itself in a greater sphere is like sending out tentacles that spread out consciousness into spheres that do not lawfully belong to that being. And this is indeed the case for a human being. When through resonance the consciousness of the Initiate reaches into, say, the Solar sphere, this doesn't mean that he becomes that sphere in its fullness. It's much rather that he 'visits' that sphere by 'touching' it with expanded cognition. Everything thus experienced is nevertheless refracted through the prism of our own Earthly evolution.

Yet in the long run, evolution goes through metamorphoses that lead to, for example, planetary-scale existence. Now, such a perspective of CC doesn't feel as a small biological-scale sphere that spreads its tentacles and trespasses in a planetary-scale sphere of being. In the same sense, our ego-perspective of CC doesn't feel like, say, a cell that shoots its rays into the whole volume of the body and 'conquers' it. Instead, the human ego feels like the lawful center of being at this scale. There are spheres of inner space smaller than us, spheres greater than us, but at our scale we feel as a unitary being.

I hope this has been cleared. I'll repeat. We need to distinguish between two things: 1/ human-scale existence that shoots its rays into Cosmic spheres of the unbounded inner space, and in a sense surrenders to these higher minds, allowing them to think through the human being, thus precipitating certain images and intuitions about the nature of existence that the One Self experiences at the corresponding higher sphere. 2/ is the existence that the Self experiences at the corresponding sphere of Cosmic integration, where the Self feels right at the lawful center, just like our ego feels as belonging to our human scale. In other words, 1/ is like a human being expanding and knowing something of the consciousness of a godly being, while 2/ is the experience of the godly being in itself, as its own center (not through a human prism).

Now it is obvious that we can imagine 2/ only through 1/. We can know 2/ in its reality only when we ourselves evolve to become such a CC perspective at the corresponding level. But nevertheless, through 1/ we can understand the kind of development that leads the evolving Self through the greater spheres that integrate more and more of the Oneness of Being. This is why we need Initatic science - because this is how we can understand the direction in which our development should be guided. This is the price of freedom. If we're securely and automatically led on the ascending path of evolution, we are not completely free. To be free means that we can potentially lead our flow of existence also toward destruction. Then it is through our comprehension of existence that we should freely align ourselves with the ascending or descending currents that our Love unites us with.

Thus we should be clear. Through the path of Initiation, spreading our thinking rays and uniting them with the higher spheres of Being, we do not directly become CC at these scales. Our human-scale sphere still feels as the baseline. We need that higher knowledge in order to guide our long-term evolutionary development, which alone leads CC to know itself at home at the higher scales.

Now, hoping that the distinction between 1/ and 2/ is clear, and putting 1/ to the side for a moment, is it conceivable that CC having a higher sphere as its natural state has truer, more encompassing self-knowledge than the CC which feels at home at a human scale and experiences its Zen moment? I emphasize this again because it is key: I'm not asking whether a human Initiate who has expanded his consciousness into higher spheres knows himself better than CC experiencing at human-scale its Zen moment, but whether non-human scale CC who has a higher sphere for its natural consciousness, has greater experience of the Oneness of all?

Now you may object that the oneness is not greater because, say, two planetary-sphere consciousnesses are just as distinct as two human-sphere consciousnesses. If I understand your argument correctly, it is something like this:



except that we should imagine the video backwards. We are zooming out, yet never reaching a top triangle. By saying that this can go on infinitely, you emphasize that no matter how much we zoom out it always seems that we are horizontally surrounded with other triangles. Depending on the scale, these may represent other human beings, other planets, stars, galaxies, universes, multiverses, etc. But your point is that in this way, no matter what scale CC experiences as its native, it won't be effectively different from the human-scale. A planetary-scale experience of CC, you imagine, should feel just like a planetary ego having relations with other planetary egos - maybe debating about the nature of existence just like we do now on the human scale. CC in that situation would still seek its Zen moment to know true Oneness, because otherwise, no matter to what scales it evolves, you suggest that it will feel like surrounded by separateness. Thus the Zen moment is the only conceivable way out.

All this, however, presupposes that the scales simply repeat the same human-like relations everywhere. For example, star-scale consciosnesses can hate each other, deceive each other, etc. But if we investigate the sensory shadow of the Cosmic totality, we see the more we zoom in, the more unified things become. There are infinite forms of organisms, fewer ways in which atoms can be combined in molecules, even fewer kinds of atoms, even fewer kinds of quarks, and so on. It is similar on the scale up. Stars are grouped in galaxies, galaxies in filaments but at the greatest scales this granularity seems like uniformity. As far as we can see with our telescopes, the clumping doesn't go on indefinitely.

Thus we may conceive that we, human beings who are somewhat in the middle of this scale gradient, experience a somewhat 'deformed' landscape.

Image

Here, horizontally, each triangle is not the same as the others, just like no two human forms are just the same. But now we can imagine that the more we zoom in or zoom out, the more the image becomes more and more perfectly self-similar. Try to feel what that means. Imagine a perfectly self-similar landscape like the previous video. Then we can't say "I'm this triangle, you are that one" because everything is perfectly self-similar. If we know our triangle, we know every triangle.

I know that this sounds highly abstract but if we take it in a living way, it really hints at why the higher spheres of CC grasp Oneness in a more and more real way - not only as an unbounded Zen feeling projecting from a human-scale sphere but as growing into the Universal lattice of Oneness within which every state of existence is embedded.
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

Not sure if I should respond as we seem to be going around in circles. The difference between your 1) and 2) above is not material to where I think we differ in approach.
(I think) what you are proposing is that with practice the finite mind can culture an expanded intuition\will, embracing ever expansive celestial realms, until the finite mind embraces CC.
My exact paraphrasing may not be correct word-by-word, but the above is what I think you are proposing. I'm not saying your approach is not possible, but that your approach is difficult, fraught with entrapments, and not for everyone.
I am proposing the more traditional approach: CC is our true nature, CC is our true identity . . . the mind has a natural tendency to 'find' CC . . . the mind just needs to be 'released'.
Thus, calmness\silence\samadhi is said to be the means. Alternating meditation with activity. Also, Zen which stuns the mind into restful alertness. Also, devotion, service, and other practices etc.
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AshvinP
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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lorenzop wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:38 pm I am proposing the more traditional approach: CC is our true nature, CC is our true identity . . . the mind has a natural tendency to 'find' CC . . . the mind just needs to be 'released'.
Thus, calmness\silence\samadhi is said to be the means. Alternating meditation with activity. Also, Zen which stuns the mind into restful alertness. Also, devotion, service, and other practices etc.

How would you describe the practical ideals of this traditional approach to finding CC? By alternating meditation with activity, what is accomplished in the spheres of thinking, feeling, and willing, at the individual and collective scales, and to what ends? Does it illuminate the path by which new ways of being will draw humanity and the Earth out of its dark abyss, or does it leave us with only the old traditional methods that clearly haven't corrected the course? Do any of the aims extend beyond the horizon of a single incarnation?

With these questions, I am trying to establish why you are so unshakeably confident that the blurred boundaries of your 'finite mind' is actually a discovery of CC, instead of just a preliminary step where the spirit has chosen to stop and that has become the ultimate idol. (ultimate in the sense that it becomes the gold standard by which all other 'optional' pursuits are measured and its primacy is unquestionable, no matter how much our holistic knowledge of reality expands). As with the whole millennia-long history of idolatry, the easiest things to reach and grasp become the most unquestionable plaecholders for the absolute Divine. Does that not bother you even a little?
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

Entire shelves of volumes address the question of how samadhi and activity increases harmony between mind and heart, increases harmony with nature, clarifies the mind, and on and on and on.
RE your use of the word 'blurred' - it's not a useful word to describe samadhi or anything other than getting hit on the head with a hammer - so I can't address that.
You are asking me if your misunderstanding bother me? No not really.
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AshvinP
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by AshvinP »

lorenzop wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:31 pm Entire shelves of volumes address the question of how samadhi and activity increases harmony between mind and heart, increases harmony with nature, clarifies the mind, and on and on and on.
RE your use of the word 'blurred' - it's not a useful word to describe samadhi or anything other than getting hit on the head with a hammer - so I can't address that.
You are asking me if your misunderstanding bother me? No not really.

Yes but after thousands of years of easy to reach and grasp Samadhi, there is neither harmony with nature nor clarity of mind at the scale of humanity. Its also easy to communicate - you dont need illustrative essays to convey Samadhi but literally a few sentences. You and many others take pride in that ability to avoid highly involved conceptual discussion in the pursuit of CC.

Im using blurred in the same sense as Clerics illustrations, which you agreed with. Samadhi reveals nothing of the inner life of other relative perspectives within CC, it forces you to keep zooming back into Lorenzo's finite mind. All of this has been established. It reveals nothing of the intuitive depths through which the Zodiacal, Solar, and Lunar consciousness is stepped down to the intellectual level.

You argue that all of that is optional and the experience of blurred out CC is the only necessary thing for humanitys spiritual development. Yet you also try to claim it is not a golden calf, it is uniquely beyond all idolatry. Why doesn't that bother you? Why should unshakeable confidence in a meditative state with no revelations of the CC depth, no universal and evolutionary significance, yet immune to all logical reasoning and higher cognitive understanding, be considered anything but the ultimate golden calf?
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

I was willing to proceed with Cleric's diagram - but did protest with use of 'blurred' . . . it's the exact opposite of the word I would use. For example, if one were to erase the lines in a parking lot, the parking lot is not 'blurred'.
If someone is interested in the Occult - then they should explore these pleasures. To make your (and Steiner's) interests mandatory for all humans is hubris and narcissistic. You're making spiritual development like a video game - where an individual has to master each level before advancing to the next. One doesn't have to follow this video game model when an easier more direct, more natural path is available.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

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lorenzop wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:38 pm Not sure if I should respond as we seem to be going around in circles. The difference between your 1) and 2) above is not material to where I think we differ in approach.
(I think) what you are proposing is that with practice the finite mind can culture an expanded intuition\will, embracing ever expansive celestial realms, until the finite mind embraces CC.
My exact paraphrasing may not be correct word-by-word, but the above is what I think you are proposing. I'm not saying your approach is not possible, but that your approach is difficult, fraught with entrapments, and not for everyone.
I am proposing the more traditional approach: CC is our true nature, CC is our true identity . . . the mind has a natural tendency to 'find' CC . . . the mind just needs to be 'released'.
Thus, calmness\silence\samadhi is said to be the means. Alternating meditation with activity. Also, Zen which stuns the mind into restful alertness. Also, devotion, service, and other practices etc.
Let me illustrate the situation of modern mysticism. I'm saying 'modern' because things, for example for the ancient Hindus, have never been so simple as saying "merge with pure awareness and everything else is inessential". Even for early Buddhism, which narrowed all its focus on the liberation of the mind, Cosmology still played an important role. Reincarnation, for example, can never be derived simply from the idea of pure awareness. The narrow focus on pure awareness while considering everything else secondary, is a recent phenomenon. Otherwise, all ancient literature would have consisted of a few words that can be written on a napkin: "I am That" or something of that sort. Why speak of karma, reincarnation, the planes of existence, the Devas, the yugas, and so on, if all of that was not only inessential but also practically uncertain? And please note that all these 'inessential' concepts have been introduced by the most ancient sources that we know of, those of the ancient Hindus. Spiritual science today simply rediscovers all that from within outwards, so to speak (while for the ancients it felt like knowledge that simply poured on them from the spheres of the Cosmic Mind).

As said so many times, modern mysticism has walked itself into a corner of agnosticism and indeterminacy. It is crucially important to realize that this is recent 'development'. Even though you call it 'traditional wisdom', the ancient Hindus would have never questioned reincarnation, simply because it was lived reality for them. To question reincarnation for them would have sounded as if modern man was to question whether his experiences today were preceded by experiences on the previous day.

In a sense, this sharp focus has been necessary for evolution. In the above analogy, it was necessary to reach a state where we could know ourselves only in the here and now, and lose confidence that today's experiences are part of a continuous flow with those of a previous day. We can illustrate this (or rather AI illustrates it) in the following way:

Image

This is the same picture as BK's CC and alters, except that here we have it more colorful and it symbolizes not only the spatial aspect but also the temporal. The alters are symbolized as movie reels which represent our first-person existential movie from Earthly birth to death.

Such a picture captures the whole napkin-wisdom. We awaken within an unfolding first-person movie. We don't know how it started, we simply come to realize that we experience existence. Then we bounce around, desire this or that, push in this or that direction until the movie strip runs its course. Some manage to become enlightened and say "What counts is that there's unified background awareness which experiences the movie. How this movie reel comes to be, what shapes its storyline, what shapes the movie context - these are inessential questions. There's nothing to be known, nothing to be understood."

This is the picture of existence that modern mysticism paints. We are floating disconnected movie fragments, without plot, without pre-story, without direction. All that matters is that there's 'experiencing'. Now even though you call your view 'traditional', there's nothing traditional in it. None of this modern mystical agnosticism would have made sense to the ancients. In fact, they would had to say that only a soul that has severed all ties with its Cosmic origins, could speak in such a way.

Let's consider two possibilities.

One is that the movie reels pop in and out of existence completely spontaneously. Our present life is practically random (in the sense that it doesn't result from any conscious activity that we can relate to our present perspective. And correspondingly, when the movie strip runs its course, it's all over. It has no effect whatsoever on other reels popping in. In this scenario, anyone would have to agree - realizing ourselves as pure background awareness is the highest achievement. All other knowledge is completely optional and furthermore, it is prone to illusions because believing that our present reel is somehow influenced by the activity of CC in a prior reel is simply a fantasy.

The other possibility is that indeed reels grow from one another and also within the total manifold movie environment. In this case it is obvious that our activity today seeds the reel of tomorrow.

Let's put that in a childishly simple example. You awaken as a child whose reality is the school process. The first possibility is that this school day simply pops into existence as a completely random movie reel. The books, the school building, the pencils - everything is a mere distraction. The child only gets it right if it focuses within itself and says "It's all just a random movie reel, it's inessential. Only experiencing is real. I simply need to go through the movie fragment without getting too entangled with the details of the process because this only increases suffering."

The other possibility is that the movie reel is only a section of a much greater, continuously evolving flow, where the conscious perspective of CC rhythmically expands and knows more and more of its Cosmic totality. Then it becomes obvious that the actions on one day do have effects on the experiences on the next. For example, we can imagine that there's an exam on the next day. If the child of the first case awakens on the second day and experiences the nightmarish movie of having an exam but being completely unprepared for it, this would be considered just a peculiarity of the completely random movie reel that has popped into existence. Then the child can still say "This isn't real, only the experience of this nightmare is real, and I simply need to go through it with peace of mind." Needless to say, the next days are likely to become more and more nightmarish. Ironically, the same logic can be applied and even when the movie reels become horror movies. We can still justify them as being simply spontaneous sparks in CC and we simply need to deidentify and wait till the end of the movie fragment.

Now you have said many times that you are open to all possibilities. You don't deny a continuous flow of existence (karma and reincarnation, the qualities we develop or fail to develop today matter tomorrow) but you are equally open that our existential movie fragment could be just a spontaneous manifestation with no prehistory or direction.

That's fine. In such cases people usually try to 'insure' themselves or 'hedge' their investments as if not to lose everything no matter which possibility turns out to be right. In your case, your hedging strategy is to focus on pure experiencing and not bother too much with the actual contents of the movie reel, what they can tell you about its past and future.

Now the question (which Ashvin posed in an alternative way and you did not find disturbing) is whether you realize that this position is not that well hedged? Of course, being kind, balanced, etc. is more secure than harming others while believing in the law of the jungle. But a kind and quiet child who refuses to develop skills and qualities will still suffer the repercussions in the next metamorphosis of the reel.

Do you understand this childishly simple analogy? Do you understand that there could be a scenario where comfortably experiencing our pure freefall through existence (because we believe that nothing needs to be understood and done) maight be insufficient?
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

If someone wanted to become a master chess player, or concert violinist, or meet and cavort with angels, seek out and defeat demons, visit Atlantis, comb through every detail of past lives, . . . and etc. . . . these are all noble endeavors and should be applauded.
However to make a list of relative achievements and make them mandatory for self realization makes absolutely no sense.
Sure, if you want to be an Anthroposophist do this, if you want to be a Hindu do this, if you want to be a warrior do this, etc.
Perhaps Steiner, consciously or subconsciously, created a hierarchy of achievements to create an order of priests, with him at the top?
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by Cleric K »

lorenzop wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:49 am If someone wanted to become a master chess player, or concert violinist, or meet and cavort with angels, seek out and defeat demons, visit Atlantis, comb through every detail of past lives, . . . and etc. . . . these are all noble endeavors and should be applauded.
However to make a list of relative achievements and make them mandatory for self realization makes absolutely no sense.
Sure, if you want to be an Anthroposophist do this, if you want to be a Hindu do this, if you want to be a warrior do this, etc.
Perhaps Steiner, consciously or subconsciously, created a hierarchy of achievements to create an order of priests, with him at the top?
You are still dodging the very simple question. I'm not pushing on you a certain set of beliefs and values. I really don't know how I can make all this more explicit than the childish analogy above.

To put it bluntly, at the end of your Earthly movie reel, if it turns out that conscious experience continues and your present movie segment is just a narrow moving window through a much greater unfoldment, do you conceive as a possibility that in the face of this new bigger picture of reality, and looking back on the movie that has run its course, your expanded CC perspective may feel like: "By agnostically freefalling through the movie experience, as if nothing needs to be understood or done, I have missed the opportunities to develop certain inner skills and qualities that I now find lacking (like a child would feel who has neglected the preparation for the next school day). Now the continuation of my existential movie runs in a crippled way because of this neglect."

I'm not asking whether you believe that this is the case. I'm not using these examples as scare tactics. I'm only asking whether in your mind there's a possibility that such a scenario could be the case. In other words, is there a universe in which Lorenzo's ego may have misunderstood the place and value of the Zen moment and has neglected things that need to be understood and done, things that could give a beneficial direction to the general evolutionary movie flow (which outspans our present Earthly fragment and has not only personal significance but for the totality of metamorphosing spheres of CC)? Or you feel so absolutely secure in your agnostic freefall through this isolated movie reel experience that such a possibility is completely out of the question (it is unthinkable, thus incomprehensible, and as a result you probably still don't understand the childishly simple question that I'm asking)?
lorenzop
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Re: Essay: Retracing Spiritual Activity (Part V)

Post by lorenzop »

Should the Lorenzo dream continue, I’ll be ready.
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