Saving the materialists

[AshvinP]

Federica, if a preliminary step is almost always necessary, then can you describe what this step looked like for you? For me, there was surely much abstract philosophical, scientific, and religious probing of 'integral' thought-systems before coming across PoF (in which I include the postings on this forum), but the latter was eventually like a phase-shift in cognitive perspective that, in retrospect, I can easily see would have never been reached by more and more probing. In many ways, I can see how the probing, if continued further, would have made the phase-transition more difficult than easier, since my intellect would become more conditioned to avoiding the sort of orthogonal inner effort and stance that is necessary. Was it different for you?

Yes. For me it was about finding here a satisfactory (for the intellect, inevitably) treatment of the objections I had to BKs model. Of course I agree the phase shift is not reached by more probing. A shift must take place. But without an attuning preliminary phase to make the possibility of shift accessible (not guaranteed, but at least accessible) one would not even contemplating to read PoF or engage with the contents of this forum (as we see, that's precisely what happens, or should I say, does not happen).

I think the key factor here is whether we are starting from self-observation of the imaginative space and then expanding from the inside-out, so to speak, toward the deeper biophysical spaces. Try to put yourself in the position of encountering all these 'drawings and diagrams' of the complete spiritual-psycho-physical organization of man, as revealed by spiritual science, without any preliminary work in attaining the phase-shift of cognitive perspective. Even if someone tells you, "don't take this as an actual model of reality but only as artistic representations of ideal processes", will this caveat mean much of anything to you? Would you be able to sufficiently distinguish "ideal processes" at an experiential level from the mechanical processes we imagine unfolding in the bodily organization with the intellect?

Remember, plenty of people say they are not confusing their models for reality (Levin et al. come to mind), but that doesn't ensure that their models are not functionally standing in for reality and increasingly becoming the sole means through which they interface with reality. Only the phase-shift in cognitive perspective can ensure that, no matter how much we are tempted to scratch the idolatrous itch, we can effectively resist it and remain relatively conscious of how it is influencing our imaginative states. Otherwise, we simply convince ourselves that we are not confusing models for reality but, for all intents and purposes, we are and we don't realize it because we lack consciousness of the deeper scale from which the soul itch proceeds.

You are right: the caveat would not mean much to me. I distinctly remember the first time I read TCT, when I read that caveat, I did not understand it. I read it multiple times, but couldn't get a real idea of what the distinction was pointing to. I realized it was important, and that it probably had to do with changing perspectives, but that's it. However, that confusion was far from useless. Understanding goes in a slow progression. And I have no reason to doubt it could work the same for many others who are generally interested in 'knowledge', if only their intellect could be exposed to the stunning correspondences spiritual science reveals, closely related to the science they are into.

We need to clearly distinguish between "proper clairvoyance" and the cognitive phase-shift that I am speaking about above. The latter is more along the lines of the 'healthy human understanding' that we have discussed before, and what Steiner is referencing in the quote. It would be interesting to see how often Steiner refers back to PoSA, KHW, and similar things in some of these later lecture cycles. I can distinctly remember quite a few lectures where he told the audience that the methods to healthily understand what he is speaking about are contained in those books and corresponding exercises. Once we clearly distinguish clairvoyance and HHU, then we can also distinguish HHU from the 'preliminary steps' of abstractly working with diagrams and correspondences. In many places, Steiner warns precisely against the latter, including the quotes you have shared about how modern people tend to think only in words. They hear etheric-astral-ego, moon-sun-saturn, limb-chest-head, etc., and find endless connections and correspondences between the concepts, but never really stop to feel the intuitive meaning they are living in and steering through when working with such concepts. They don't stop to do that because they have no foundation to suspect that it is even possible or worthwhile, a foundation that is established through PoF and resulting HHU.

I agree, these are three distinct phases: preliminary, HHU, and clairvoyance. And I too remember how often Steiner refers audiences to his books. Yes, the preliminary phase implies the risk that the intellect never steps aside. But without it, there is simply nothing to contextualize HHU, to allow it to surge. I think it's necessary to play with fire in these times. One cannot count on people bumping into PoF at the library, reading the first pages, and saying to themselves: "Oh yeah, let's keep reading, this really looks like the open sesame to deep knowledge of all worlds".

Ok, but since you quoted Steiner before, I want to confirm we agree that the 'preliminary steps' are not what he is referring to in such quotes about how we don't need 'proper clairvoyance', and rather those steps are something we are adding on top of what Steiner gives in his various books and lectures?

Then the question becomes whether the spiritual risks of these added preliminary steps outweigh the benefits for the average modern philosophical-scientific thinking soul. That is not a simple question, of course, but there are a few additional considerations I will draw attention to.

From my perspective, out of all the extensive online discussions I have engaged in surrounding these topics, the only examples of souls who continue to pursue the spiritual path with living interest are those who diligently worked through PoF. Unlike Cleric, many of my posts to others have quoted Steiner and spiritual scientific results extensively. For example, when people bring up NDEs and surrounding questions, I have quoted passages on the etheric departing the physical, the memory tableau, reverse memory review, and so on. In my mind, these passages could not speak more directly, logically, and scientifically to the questions being raised, which these souls are supposedly interested in. Yet they are met without comment - not with questions or criticism, which implies they are at least being contemplated, but with avoidance and silence. 

The souls on this forum who lost interest never engaged with the phenomenological postings (on their own terms), or the spiritual scientific quotes, rather, they wanted to continue manipulating familiar intellectual gestures and symbols to contemplate philosophical problems and scientific models. In a certain sense, the interest in PoF declined in direct proportion to the momentum of those familiar intellectual habits and interests. Again, they never even took the time to work through PoF. The more logically precise and relevant the Steiner quotes became to the discussion, the more they felt like it was an imposition on their intellectual faculty and triggered unexamined defense mechanisms. That is what I have noticed from periodically reviewing the discussions as well. There are deeper soul dynamics at work here that render the logical appeals, which feel most natural, most ineffective.

We spoke about this before, with the analogy to a reckless gambler chasing his losses. It is precisely spiritual scientific insight that reveals why we don't need to approach these things with the default rush and desperation of the modern intellect, where everyone is preaching an apocalyptic scenario and justifying their policy measures on similar grounds to, "it's necessary to play with fire in these times". We know that it's much better for a soul to wait and reach the opportunities for the spiritual path in their next incarnation than to diminish or foreclose those opportunities by steering the intellect in a super-risky, calcifying direction in this incarnation. Yes, we all need a preliminary phase of abstract exploration to establish the context from which the PoF path can proceed, but the bridge will be the exploration that leverages the abstract intellectual movements in a transformative way rather than reinforcing its linear momentum. We also shouldn't let hypothetical intellectual bridges override what we know works in our own case, as we rhythmically move between PoF, meditation, study, prayer, etc. 


https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA104/En ... 30p01.html

Through a group of people dedicating themselves to-day to the foundation of a great brotherhood which will live over into the epoch of the seven seals, help will be provided for those others, who to-day still turn a deaf ear to the teachings of Spiritual Science. For the present, we have still to go through many incarnations of the present souls before the great War of All against All, and again up to the decisive point after the great War. And afterwards in the epoch of the seals we also have to go through many changes, and men will often have the opportunity to open their hearts to the spiritual world-conception, which is to-day flowing through the anthroposophical Movement. There will be many opportunities, and you must not imagine that future opportunities will only be such as they are to-day. The way in which we are able to make the spiritual view of the world known to others is still very feeble. Even if a man were now to speak in such a way that his voice were to sound forth directly like the fire of the spirit, that would be feeble as compared with the possibilities which will exist in later and more developed bodies in order to direct our fellow-men to this spiritual movement. When humanity as a whole will have developed higher and higher in future ages, there will be very different means through which the spiritual conception of the world will be able to penetrate into men's hearts, and the most fiery word to-day is small and weak compared with what will work in the future to give all souls the possibility of the spiritual conception of the world—all the souls now living in bodies in which no heart beats for this spiritual conception of the world.

We are at the beginning of the spiritual movement, and it will grow. It will require much obduracy and much hardness to close the heart and mind to the powerful impressions of the future. The souls now living in bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy, are now preparing them-selves to live in bodies in the future in which power will be given them to serve their fellow-creatures, who up to that time had been unable to feel this heart beat within them. We are only preparing for the preparers, as yet nothing more. The spiritual movement is to-day but a very small flame; in the future it will develop into a mighty spiritual fire.

[Federica]

Ok, but since you quoted Steiner before, I want to confirm we agree that the 'preliminary steps' are not what he is referring to in such quotes about how we don't need 'proper clairvoyance', and rather those steps are something we are adding on top of what Steiner gives in his various books and lectures?

Then the question becomes whether the spiritual risks of these added preliminary steps outweigh the benefits for the average modern philosophical-scientific thinking soul. That is not a simple question, of course, but there are a few additional considerations I will draw attention to.

From my perspective, out of all the extensive online discussions I have engaged in surrounding these topics, the only examples of souls who continue to pursue the spiritual path with living interest are those who diligently worked through PoF. Unlike Cleric, many of my posts to others have quoted Steiner and spiritual scientific results extensively. For example, when people bring up NDEs and surrounding questions, I have quoted passages on the etheric departing the physical, the memory tableau, reverse memory review, and so on. In my mind, these passages could not speak more directly, logically, and scientifically to the questions being raised, which these souls are supposedly interested in. Yet they are met without comment - not with questions or criticism, which implies they are at least being contemplated, but with avoidance and silence. 

The souls on this forum who lost interest never engaged with the phenomenological postings (on their own terms), or the spiritual scientific quotes, rather, they wanted to continue manipulating familiar intellectual gestures and symbols to contemplate philosophical problems and scientific models. In a certain sense, the interest in PoF declined in direct proportion to the momentum of those familiar intellectual habits and interests. Again, they never even took the time to work through PoF. The more logically precise and relevant the Steiner quotes became to the discussion, the more they felt like it was an imposition on their intellectual faculty and triggered unexamined defense mechanisms. That is what I have noticed from periodically reviewing the discussions as well. There are deeper soul dynamics at work here that render the logical appeals, which feel most natural, most ineffective.

We spoke about this before, with the analogy to a reckless gambler chasing his losses. It is precisely spiritual scientific insight that reveals why we don't need to approach these things with the default rush and desperation of the modern intellect, where everyone is preaching an apocalyptic scenario and justifying their policy measures on similar grounds to, "it's necessary to play with fire in these times". We know that it's much better for a soul to wait and reach the opportunities for the spiritual path in their next incarnation than to diminish or foreclose those opportunities by steering the intellect in a super-risky, calcifying direction in this incarnation. Yes, we all need a preliminary phase of abstract exploration to establish the context from which the PoF path can proceed, but the bridge will be the exploration that leverages the abstract intellectual movements in a transformative way rather than reinforcing its linear momentum. We also shouldn't let hypothetical intellectual bridges override what we know works in our own case, as we rhythmically move between PoF, meditation, study, prayer, etc. 


https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA104/En ... 30p01.html

Through a group of people dedicating themselves to-day to the foundation of a great brotherhood which will live over into the epoch of the seven seals, help will be provided for those others, who to-day still turn a deaf ear to the teachings of Spiritual Science. For the present, we have still to go through many incarnations of the present souls before the great War of All against All, and again up to the decisive point after the great War. And afterwards in the epoch of the seals we also have to go through many changes, and men will often have the opportunity to open their hearts to the spiritual world-conception, which is to-day flowing through the anthroposophical Movement. There will be many opportunities, and you must not imagine that future opportunities will only be such as they are to-day. The way in which we are able to make the spiritual view of the world known to others is still very feeble. Even if a man were now to speak in such a way that his voice were to sound forth directly like the fire of the spirit, that would be feeble as compared with the possibilities which will exist in later and more developed bodies in order to direct our fellow-men to this spiritual movement. When humanity as a whole will have developed higher and higher in future ages, there will be very different means through which the spiritual conception of the world will be able to penetrate into men's hearts, and the most fiery word to-day is small and weak compared with what will work in the future to give all souls the possibility of the spiritual conception of the world—all the souls now living in bodies in which no heart beats for this spiritual conception of the world.

We are at the beginning of the spiritual movement, and it will grow. It will require much obduracy and much hardness to close the heart and mind to the powerful impressions of the future. The souls now living in bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy, are now preparing them-selves to live in bodies in the future in which power will be given them to serve their fellow-creatures, who up to that time had been unable to feel this heart beat within them. We are only preparing for the preparers, as yet nothing more. The spiritual movement is to-day but a very small flame; in the future it will develop into a mighty spiritual fire.

Yes, the preliminary steps are added. Not on top of, but before the path to self-knowledge described in the books. Those quotes were not about preliminary steps, but show how Steiner thought that it is possible to develop HUU and operate anthroposophically from there, for example in medicine, without necessarily developing proper clairvoyance. I quoted them to substantiate that Steiner’s audience was by and large not clairvoyant, and also that Steiner was not opposed to a practice of anthroposophical medicine supported by HUU without clairvoyance, but with a “clairvoyance of intellect and judgment”, that is without the practice of introspective exercises and meditation that leads to clairvoyance properly so called. He didn’t refrain from presenting detailed spiritual scientific ideas to an audience which for the most part was relying on their intellect-supported HUU. He didn’t tell them go home, meditate, initiate yourself first, and come back to course when you can directly relate to the forces we are discussing in your spiritual vision. Yes, those attendees probably had the HUU that the average modern philosophical-scientific thinking soul probably hasn’t, but still they had to rely on their intellect to figure those forces.

The rest of your post is very interesting. Now we are coming to the real arguments. But I don’t have any clear ideas here. I am unable to evaluate how urgent it is that as many as possible evolve out of the negative spiritual zone, versus “it’s better to wait for future incarnations”.

[AshvinP]

Yes, the preliminary steps are added. Not on top of, but before the path to self-knowledge described in the books. Those quotes were not about preliminary steps, but show how Steiner thought that it is possible to develop HUU and operate anthroposophically from there, for example in medicine, without necessarily developing proper clairvoyance. I quoted them to substantiate that Steiner’s audience was by and large not clairvoyant, and also that Steiner was not opposed to a practice of anthroposophical medicine supported by HUU without clairvoyance, but with a “clairvoyance of intellect and judgment”, that is without the practice of introspective exercises and meditation that leads to clairvoyance properly so called. He didn’t refrain from presenting detailed spiritual scientific ideas to an audience which for the most part was relying on their intellect-supported HUU. He didn’t tell them go home, meditate, initiate yourself first, and come back to course when you can directly relate to the forces we are discussing in your spiritual vision. Yes, those attendees probably had the HUU that the average modern philosophical-scientific thinking soul probably hasn’t, but still they had to rely on their intellect to figure those forces.

The rest of your post is very interesting. Now we are coming to the real arguments. But I don’t have any clear ideas here. I am unable to evaluate how urgent it is that as many as possible evolve out of the negative spiritual zone, versus “it’s better to wait for future incarnations”.

Well, as I am sure we can both testify, days, weeks, months, and even years of meditation and introspective exercises may not lead to 'clairvoyance proper', and Steiner mentions this often as well. I am not aware of any lecture where he says that one can attain HHU, which can livingly grapple with the lawful relations of supersensible facts, without any such introspective exercises. From my own experience, it doesn't seem possible. A certain attunement is necessary to what one is doing with their thinking process when contemplating those facts. That is what the introspective exercises lead to, even if we don't realize it is happening at the time.

We certainly have to rely on our intellect in the phenomenological approach that establishes HHU, and the strength of the latter comes precisely from the fact that it leverages familiar intellectual gestures, through metaphors, illustrations, examples, etc., to steer its imaginative momentum in a novel direction. But, as usual, we need to draw fine distinctions here since the 'balancing beam' in our times is not too wide. Cleric's post on HHU was instructive and hits on the key risk, which is that the 'pre-HHU' steps can (and almost always do) end up as the intellect's subconscious justification for never engaging HHU.

It is essentially the same risk we often speak about with psychedelic-mystical practices. There is a huge difference between entertaining new perceptual-conceptual content that is arranged and interpreted by the intellect, versus living in the 'exceptional state' of more integrated meaning, which is then artistically projected into conceptual content. The latter is always implied by HHU, while the former inevitably leads to a confused and reductive understanding of spiritual reality. At the surface level, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two, since they both may involve very similar content, but we learn this difference as we experience more and more of the differentiation within our imaginative life.

[Federica]

Well, as I am sure we can both testify, days, weeks, months, and even years of meditation and introspective exercises may not lead to 'clairvoyance proper', and Steiner mentions this often as well. I am not aware of any lecture where he says that one can attain HHU, which can livingly grapple with the lawful relations of supersensible facts, without any such introspective exercises. From my own experience, it doesn't seem possible. A certain attunement is necessary to what one is doing with their thinking process when contemplating those facts. That is what the introspective exercises lead to, even if we don't realize it is happening at the time.

We certainly have to rely on our intellect in the phenomenological approach that establishes HHU, and the strength of the latter comes precisely from the fact that it leverages familiar intellectual gestures, through metaphors, illustrations, examples, etc., to steer its imaginative momentum in a novel direction. But, as usual, we need to draw fine distinctions here since the 'balancing beam' in our times is not too wide. Cleric's post on HHU was instructive and hits on the key risk, which is that the 'pre-HHU' steps can (and almost always do) end up as the intellect's subconscious justification for never engaging HHU.

It is essentially the same risk we often speak about with psychedelic-mystical practices. There is a huge difference between entertaining new perceptual-conceptual content that is arranged and interpreted by the intellect, versus living in the 'exceptional state' of more integrated meaning, which is then artistically projected into conceptual content. The latter is always implied by HHU, while the former inevitably leads to a confused and reductive understanding of spiritual reality. At the surface level, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two, since they both may involve very similar content, but we learn this difference as we experience more and more of the differentiation within our imaginative life.

But Ashvin, the post you quote by Cleric says exactly the opposite to the bold! It's even repeated multiple times: nothing prevents one with an open mind from HHU. If HHU is not experienced it's because of excuses, because one does not allow that comprehension to take shape. Lack of meditative practice is only an excuse, not a real obstacle to a living picture consciousness of spiritual realities, according to that post. Also, I don't see where that post "hits on the key risk of pre-HHU steps". Where? What risks? It's a mystery for me how the conversations we have often follow such out-of-phase patterns..

I agree there is a huge difference between entertaining spiritual scientific contents arranged by the intellect versus living in the exceptional state to form conceptual content from there. I believe HHU is a mix of both. The intellect tries to map out areas of inquiry in a way that makes some sense, then the more integrated capacities try to sense various spots on the maps. Then, another time, the integrated capacities reveal certain nodes of experience, and then the intellect tries to penetrate them proposing some rationalization and drawing of correspondences. And yes, the external presentation of all those contents would be indistinguishable. So I wouldn't draw a neat separation in practice. But for the one who (in my view) may benefit from preliminary steps, before HHU is experienced, I would describe a possible process like so:

1. Spiritual scientific overviews, correspondences, etc. are presented.
2. They are understood only intellectually.
3. The intellect may see (if one is honest) that there is a tight and at the same time extensive logic. A surprising, an impressive order underlying the matters, is revealed. It was always there, but it is only realized when things are considered in the indicated manner and not otherwise. This is nothing than could have been just dreamt up with no support whatsoever in reality. The intellect sees that.
4. The intellect must admit there is something to discover which the consistent constructions must rely upon.
5. The intellect then is curious to find that thing, and so it makes a sort of u-turn. It admits the value of turning inside, to pay attention to the stages of knowledge. Then it may follow the multiple invitations given to HHU, exercises and practices.

[AshvinP]

Well, as I am sure we can both testify, days, weeks, months, and even years of meditation and introspective exercises may not lead to 'clairvoyance proper', and Steiner mentions this often as well. I am not aware of any lecture where he says that one can attain HHU, which can livingly grapple with the lawful relations of supersensible facts, without any such introspective exercises. From my own experience, it doesn't seem possible. A certain attunement is necessary to what one is doing with their thinking process when contemplating those facts. That is what the introspective exercises lead to, even if we don't realize it is happening at the time.

We certainly have to rely on our intellect in the phenomenological approach that establishes HHU, and the strength of the latter comes precisely from the fact that it leverages familiar intellectual gestures, through metaphors, illustrations, examples, etc., to steer its imaginative momentum in a novel direction. But, as usual, we need to draw fine distinctions here since the 'balancing beam' in our times is not too wide. Cleric's post on HHU was instructive and hits on the key risk, which is that the 'pre-HHU' steps can (and almost always do) end up as the intellect's subconscious justification for never engaging HHU.

It is essentially the same risk we often speak about with psychedelic-mystical practices. There is a huge difference between entertaining new perceptual-conceptual content that is arranged and interpreted by the intellect, versus living in the 'exceptional state' of more integrated meaning, which is then artistically projected into conceptual content. The latter is always implied by HHU, while the former inevitably leads to a confused and reductive understanding of spiritual reality. At the surface level, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two, since they both may involve very similar content, but we learn this difference as we experience more and more of the differentiation within our imaginative life.

But Ashvin, the post you quote by Cleric says exactly the opposite to the bold! It's even repeated multiple times: nothing prevents one with an open mind from HHU. If HHU is not experienced it's because of excuses, because one does not allow that comprehension to take shape. Lack of meditative practice is only an excuse, not a real obstacle to a living picture consciousness of spiritual realities, according to that post. Also, I don't see where that post "hits on the key risk of pre-HHU steps". Where? What risks? It's a mystery for me how the conversations we have often follow such out-of-phase patterns..

I agree there is a huge difference between entertaining spiritual scientific contents arranged by the intellect versus living in the exceptional state to form conceptual content from there. I believe HHU is a mix of both. The intellect tries to map out areas of inquiry in a way that makes some sense, then the more integrated capacities try to sense various spots on the maps. Then, another time, the integrated capacities reveal certain nodes of experience, and then the intellect tries to penetrate them proposing some rationalization and drawing of correspondences. And yes, the external presentation of all those contents would be indistinguishable. So I wouldn't draw a neat separation in practice. But for the one who (in my view) may benefit from preliminary steps, before HHU is experienced, I would describe a possible process like so:

1. Spiritual scientific overviews, correspondences, etc. are presented.
2. They are understood only intellectually.
3. The intellect may see (if one is honest) that there is a tight and at the same time extensive logic. A surprising, an impressive order underlying the matters, is revealed. It was always there, but it is only realized when things are considered in the indicated manner and not otherwise. This is nothing than could have been just dreamt up with no support whatsoever in reality. The intellect sees that.
4. The intellect must admit there is something to discover which the consistent constructions must rely upon.
5. The intellect then is curious to find that thing, and so it makes a sort of u-turn. It admits the value of turning inside, to pay attention to the stages of knowledge. Then it may follow the multiple invitations given to HHU, exercises and practices.

Federica,

Perhaps the out-of-phaseness comes because, when we look further into 'pre-HHU' and 'preliminary steps', etc., it turns out you have in mind something pretty much like HHU. Because #3 (to some extent) and certainly #4-5 could only occur with HHU, i.e., the intellect is already deconditioned to a significant extent from elemental mental habits that positively obstruct those steps from unfolding. Except you seem to feel like HHU can be attained without introspective observation.

Would you say Cleric was speaking of something other than introspective observation in that HHU post? Is it possible for that inner comprehension to take shape without conscious and concentrated presence in one's own thinking process, in one's own intuitive movements? This is what we are saying is not possible. If that element is left out, then we only have abstract exploration that lacks HHU. That's why Cleric wrote another post on how the study of spiritual science should already be a form of meditation. It's not that we can put off meditation and penetrate into the spiritual realities via study, but that we should stop making such a sharp distinction between the two if we are seeking HHU. If we start looking for 'pre-HHU' thoughts and correspondences that should serve as placeholders until we reach #5, then these have become excuses to avoid the living comprehension that is accessible to the spiritual soul here and now.

[Federica]

Well, as I am sure we can both testify, days, weeks, months, and even years of meditation and introspective exercises may not lead to 'clairvoyance proper', and Steiner mentions this often as well. I am not aware of any lecture where he says that one can attain HHU, which can livingly grapple with the lawful relations of supersensible facts, without any such introspective exercises. From my own experience, it doesn't seem possible. A certain attunement is necessary to what one is doing with their thinking process when contemplating those facts. That is what the introspective exercises lead to, even if we don't realize it is happening at the time.

We certainly have to rely on our intellect in the phenomenological approach that establishes HHU, and the strength of the latter comes precisely from the fact that it leverages familiar intellectual gestures, through metaphors, illustrations, examples, etc., to steer its imaginative momentum in a novel direction. But, as usual, we need to draw fine distinctions here since the 'balancing beam' in our times is not too wide. Cleric's post on HHU was instructive and hits on the key risk, which is that the 'pre-HHU' steps can (and almost always do) end up as the intellect's subconscious justification for never engaging HHU.

It is essentially the same risk we often speak about with psychedelic-mystical practices. There is a huge difference between entertaining new perceptual-conceptual content that is arranged and interpreted by the intellect, versus living in the 'exceptional state' of more integrated meaning, which is then artistically projected into conceptual content. The latter is always implied by HHU, while the former inevitably leads to a confused and reductive understanding of spiritual reality. At the surface level, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two, since they both may involve very similar content, but we learn this difference as we experience more and more of the differentiation within our imaginative life.

But Ashvin, the post you quote by Cleric says exactly the opposite to the bold! It's even repeated multiple times: nothing prevents one with an open mind from HHU. If HHU is not experienced it's because of excuses, because one does not allow that comprehension to take shape. Lack of meditative practice is only an excuse, not a real obstacle to a living picture consciousness of spiritual realities, according to that post. Also, I don't see where that post "hits on the key risk of pre-HHU steps". Where? What risks? It's a mystery for me how the conversations we have often follow such out-of-phase patterns..

I agree there is a huge difference between entertaining spiritual scientific contents arranged by the intellect versus living in the exceptional state to form conceptual content from there. I believe HHU is a mix of both. The intellect tries to map out areas of inquiry in a way that makes some sense, then the more integrated capacities try to sense various spots on the maps. Then, another time, the integrated capacities reveal certain nodes of experience, and then the intellect tries to penetrate them proposing some rationalization and drawing of correspondences. And yes, the external presentation of all those contents would be indistinguishable. So I wouldn't draw a neat separation in practice. But for the one who (in my view) may benefit from preliminary steps, before HHU is experienced, I would describe a possible process like so:

1. Spiritual scientific overviews, correspondences, etc. are presented.
2. They are understood only intellectually.
3. The intellect may see (if one is honest) that there is a tight and at the same time extensive logic. A surprising, an impressive order underlying the matters, is revealed. It was always there, but it is only realized when things are considered in the indicated manner and not otherwise. This is nothing than could have been just dreamt up with no support whatsoever in reality. The intellect sees that.
4. The intellect must admit there is something to discover which the consistent constructions must rely upon.
5. The intellect then is curious to find that thing, and so it makes a sort of u-turn. It admits the value of turning inside, to pay attention to the stages of knowledge. Then it may follow the multiple invitations given to HHU, exercises and practices.

Federica,

Perhaps the out-of-phaseness comes because, when we look further into 'pre-HHU' and 'preliminary steps', etc., it turns out you have in mind something pretty much like HHU. Because #3 (to some extent) and certainly #4-5 could only occur with HHU, i.e., the intellect is already deconditioned to a significant extent from elemental mental habits that positively obstruct those steps from unfolding. Except you seem to feel like HHU can be attained without introspective observation.
I think the 5 steps are all walkable for an open-minded intellect. And it's not so that I see HHU and preliminary steps as pretty much the same. Isn't it clear above? First I have described concrete HHU as I see it - as an interplay of intellect and a more integrated consciousness - and then the preliminary steps an intellectual mind could be guided through. Do the two descriptions look the same to you?

Would you say Cleric was speaking of something other than introspective observation in that HHU post?
Of course he was speaking of introspective observation, but that introspective observation is available immediately, if sought after. It does not require a history of meditative practice as prerequirement. I think this is clear in that post, and not in line with what you have said: that HHU without a practice of meditation is not possible.
Is it possible for that inner comprehension to take shape without conscious and concentrated presence in one's own thinking process, in one's own intuitive movements? This is what we are saying is not possible. If that element is left out, then we only have abstract exploration that lacks HHU. One last time: that element is obviosuly not left out. If I had left it out, I would not have been able to write my characterization of HHU above, nor the 5 steps. That's why Cleric wrote another post on how the study of spiritual science should already be a form of meditation. It's not that we can put off meditation and penetrate into the spiritual realities via study, but that we should stop making such a sharp distinction between the two if we are seeking HHU. Yes, Ashvin. If we start looking for 'pre-HHU' thoughts and correspondences that should serve as placeholders until we reach #5, then these have become excuses to avoid the living comprehension that is accessible to the spiritual soul here and now. You have not understood that I intend those 5 steps, not as a recommendation, and not as a description of what I do. Therefore, there's no considering whether or not these steps are "excuses". These steps are what I deem could happen, in the best case scenario, in a honest and open-minded intellectual mind when exposed to spiritual scientific views with sufficient degree of depth and details.

[AshvinP]

Federica,

Perhaps the out-of-phaseness comes because, when we look further into 'pre-HHU' and 'preliminary steps', etc., it turns out you have in mind something pretty much like HHU. Because #3 (to some extent) and certainly #4-5 could only occur with HHU, i.e., the intellect is already deconditioned to a significant extent from elemental mental habits that positively obstruct those steps from unfolding. Except you seem to feel like HHU can be attained without introspective observation.
I think the 5 steps are all walkable for an open-minded intellect. And it's not so that I see HHU and preliminary steps as pretty much the same. Isn't it clear above? First I have described concrete HHU as I see it - as an interplay of intellect and a more integrated consciousness - and then the preliminary steps an intellectual mind could be guided through. Do the two descriptions look the same to you?

Would you say Cleric was speaking of something other than introspective observation in that HHU post?
Of course he was speaking of introspective observation, but that introspective observation is available immediately, if sought after. It does not require a history of meditative practice as prerequirement. I think this is clear in that post, and not in line with what you have said: that HHU without a practice of meditation is not possible.
Is it possible for that inner comprehension to take shape without conscious and concentrated presence in one's own thinking process, in one's own intuitive movements? This is what we are saying is not possible. If that element is left out, then we only have abstract exploration that lacks HHU. One last time: that element is obviosuly not left out. If I had left it out, I would not have been able to write my characterization of HHU above, nor the 5 steps. That's why Cleric wrote another post on how the study of spiritual science should already be a form of meditation. It's not that we can put off meditation and penetrate into the spiritual realities via study, but that we should stop making such a sharp distinction between the two if we are seeking HHU. Yes, Ashvin. If we start looking for 'pre-HHU' thoughts and correspondences that should serve as placeholders until we reach #5, then these have become excuses to avoid the living comprehension that is accessible to the spiritual soul here and now. You have not understood that I intend those 5 steps, not as a recommendation, and not as a description of what I do. Therefore, there's no considering whether or not these steps are "excuses". These steps are what I deem could happen, in the best case scenario, in a honest and open-minded intellectual mind when exposed to spiritual scientific views with sufficient degree of depth and details.

[/quote]


Ok, Federica, I admit that I can't make sense of what your "pre-HHU" steps are anymore

Sometimes you are talking about "open-minded intellectual" and "pre-HHU" steps without introspective observation, sometimes you are dividing introspective observation from "meditation" (for what reason, I have no idea), sometimes you say - "The introspective observation of empirical fact will simply not be taken seriously, out of the blue. It can't happen. Therefore a preliminary step is almost always necessary" - then you say you are not leaving out the element of introspective observation of the thinking process in these 5 preliminary steps, and so it goes.

Anyway, the bold reveals why these hypothetical speculations about how to 'save the materialists' become too abstract and remote if they are divorced from what we did, are doing, and therefore what we know works. It's like the materialist scientist when confronted with the hard problem of consciousness -"I don't know how mindless mechanisms could produce consciousness, but I deem it could be known in the future, in a best case scenario, if we just keep making incremental intellectual steps ". What I have been saying is that the 'sufficient degree of depth and details' doesn't come from the side of the incremental steps with intellectual content, but from the side of transformed and participatory thinking.

[Federica]

Federica,

Perhaps the out-of-phaseness comes because, when we look further into 'pre-HHU' and 'preliminary steps', etc., it turns out you have in mind something pretty much like HHU. Because #3 (to some extent) and certainly #4-5 could only occur with HHU, i.e., the intellect is already deconditioned to a significant extent from elemental mental habits that positively obstruct those steps from unfolding. Except you seem to feel like HHU can be attained without introspective observation.
I think the 5 steps are all walkable for an open-minded intellect. And it's not so that I see HHU and preliminary steps as pretty much the same. Isn't it clear above? First I have described concrete HHU as I see it - as an interplay of intellect and a more integrated consciousness - and then the preliminary steps an intellectual mind could be guided through. Do the two descriptions look the same to you?

Would you say Cleric was speaking of something other than introspective observation in that HHU post?
Of course he was speaking of introspective observation, but that introspective observation is available immediately, if sought after. It does not require a history of meditative practice as prerequirement. I think this is clear in that post, and not in line with what you have said: that HHU without a practice of meditation is not possible.
Is it possible for that inner comprehension to take shape without conscious and concentrated presence in one's own thinking process, in one's own intuitive movements? This is what we are saying is not possible. If that element is left out, then we only have abstract exploration that lacks HHU. One last time: that element is obviosuly not left out. If I had left it out, I would not have been able to write my characterization of HHU above, nor the 5 steps. That's why Cleric wrote another post on how the study of spiritual science should already be a form of meditation. It's not that we can put off meditation and penetrate into the spiritual realities via study, but that we should stop making such a sharp distinction between the two if we are seeking HHU. Yes, Ashvin. If we start looking for 'pre-HHU' thoughts and correspondences that should serve as placeholders until we reach #5, then these have become excuses to avoid the living comprehension that is accessible to the spiritual soul here and now. You have not understood that I intend those 5 steps, not as a recommendation, and not as a description of what I do. Therefore, there's no considering whether or not these steps are "excuses". These steps are what I deem could happen, in the best case scenario, in a honest and open-minded intellectual mind when exposed to spiritual scientific views with sufficient degree of depth and details.

Ok, Federica, I admit that I can't make sense of what your "pre-HHU" steps are anymore

Sometimes you are talking about "open-minded intellectual" and "pre-HHU" steps without introspective observation, sometimes you are dividing introspective observation from "meditation" (for what reason, I have no idea), sometimes you say - "The introspective observation of empirical fact will simply not be taken seriously, out of the blue. It can't happen. Therefore a preliminary step is almost always necessary" - then you say you are not leaving out the element of introspective observation of the thinking process in these 5 preliminary steps, and so it goes.

Anyway, the bold reveals why these hypothetical speculations about how to 'save the materialists' become too abstract and remote if they are divorced from what we did, are doing, and therefore what we know works. It's like the materialist scientist when confronted with the hard problem of consciousness -"I don't know how mindless mechanisms could produce consciousness, but I deem it could be known in the future, in a best case scenario, if we just keep making incremental intellectual steps ". What I have been saying is that the 'sufficient degree of depth and details' doesn't come from the side of the incremental steps with intellectual content, but from the side of transformed and participatory thinking.
[/quote]


Yes that's what I think too, it has all become very abstract and counterproductive - according to a known pattern in our conversations, as I am sure you'll agree, where you feel the outofphaseness is my outofphaseness, of course, and I feel you keep avoiding answering the questions that show it is not so. This is useless. Hopefully we'll do better another time.

[Federica]

Federica,

Perhaps the out-of-phaseness comes because, when we look further into 'pre-HHU' and 'preliminary steps', etc., it turns out you have in mind something pretty much like HHU. Because #3 (to some extent) and certainly #4-5 could only occur with HHU, i.e., the intellect is already deconditioned to a significant extent from elemental mental habits that positively obstruct those steps from unfolding. Except you seem to feel like HHU can be attained without introspective observation.
I think the 5 steps are all walkable for an open-minded intellect. And it's not so that I see HHU and preliminary steps as pretty much the same. Isn't it clear above? First I have described concrete HHU as I see it - as an interplay of intellect and a more integrated consciousness - and then the preliminary steps an intellectual mind could be guided through. Do the two descriptions look the same to you?

Would you say Cleric was speaking of something other than introspective observation in that HHU post?
Of course he was speaking of introspective observation, but that introspective observation is available immediately, if sought after. It does not require a history of meditative practice as prerequirement. I think this is clear in that post, and not in line with what you have said: that HHU without a practice of meditation is not possible.
Is it possible for that inner comprehension to take shape without conscious and concentrated presence in one's own thinking process, in one's own intuitive movements? This is what we are saying is not possible. If that element is left out, then we only have abstract exploration that lacks HHU. One last time: that element is obviosuly not left out. If I had left it out, I would not have been able to write my characterization of HHU above, nor the 5 steps. That's why Cleric wrote another post on how the study of spiritual science should already be a form of meditation. It's not that we can put off meditation and penetrate into the spiritual realities via study, but that we should stop making such a sharp distinction between the two if we are seeking HHU. Yes, Ashvin. If we start looking for 'pre-HHU' thoughts and correspondences that should serve as placeholders until we reach #5, then these have become excuses to avoid the living comprehension that is accessible to the spiritual soul here and now. You have not understood that I intend those 5 steps, not as a recommendation, and not as a description of what I do. Therefore, there's no considering whether or not these steps are "excuses". These steps are what I deem could happen, in the best case scenario, in a honest and open-minded intellectual mind when exposed to spiritual scientific views with sufficient degree of depth and details.

Ok, Federica, I admit that I can't make sense of what your "pre-HHU" steps are anymore

Sometimes you are talking about "open-minded intellectual" and "pre-HHU" steps without introspective observation, sometimes you are dividing introspective observation from "meditation" (for what reason, I have no idea), sometimes you say - "The introspective observation of empirical fact will simply not be taken seriously, out of the blue. It can't happen. Therefore a preliminary step is almost always necessary" - then you say you are not leaving out the element of introspective observation of the thinking process in these 5 preliminary steps, and so it goes.

Anyway, the bold reveals why these hypothetical speculations about how to 'save the materialists' become too abstract and remote if they are divorced from what we did, are doing, and therefore what we know works. It's like the materialist scientist when confronted with the hard problem of consciousness -"I don't know how mindless mechanisms could produce consciousness, but I deem it could be known in the future, in a best case scenario, if we just keep making incremental intellectual steps ". What I have been saying is that the 'sufficient degree of depth and details' doesn't come from the side of the incremental steps with intellectual content, but from the side of transformed and participatory thinking.

Yes that's what I think too, it has all become very abstract and counterproductive - according to a known pattern in our conversations, as I am sure you'll agree, where you feel the outofphaseness is my outofphaseness, of course, and I feel you keep avoiding answering the questions that show it is not so. This is useless. Hopefully we'll do better another time.

[AshvinP]

My general feeling on this topic of 'saving the materialists' is that it, like all other spiritual topics, always needs to be married with self-knowledge. Knower, know thyself; healer, heal thyself. The principle maxim of the healing art is, "first do no harm" (put another way, first attain intimate knowledge of what needs to be healed). If we are unwilling to explore what these discussions bring to light about the patterns of our own thinking, then we stand no chance of 'saving the materialists'. Then we simply become like the evangelicals who feel like they hover above other souls with their doctrines and creeds and only need to speculate on ways of convincing the intellect to adopt the same creeds.

When we discuss these preliminary steps that exist in a twilight zone of not-quite phenomenology of cognition and not-quite typical abstract theorizing, we can feel how our thinking becomes more muddled. Everything becomes vague, nebulous, hypothetical, and uncertain. Cleric put it in a great image in another recent post on this same 'incremental intellectual steps' topic:

The tragedy of today's thinking is when one assumes that all necessary conceptual slots are acquired and all that remains is to explore their combinations. This is the trap of the perfect bridge which expects that by more and more refined combinations it would reach the sought-after inner knowledge without having to make a step into the unknown. Alas, this is not possible. This doesn't mean that the step has to be huge, uninformed, and totally in the dark. We can understand conceptually quite a lot. Yet, nothing can save us from making that step from thinking about things toward 'trying them on' (overcoming the doll-mode or Vetrivian man fallacy). Thus, the only thing we can do is to depict the inner experiences as faithfully and precisely as possible, yet it is up to the other person's individual freedom to make the crossing
...
The deepening of the inner process increases our consciousness of the way we continuously etch the consequences of our inner activity into the boundless World sphere. We can literally imagine how every thought, every act of will, 'updates' the picture of the World state as if through concentric shockwaves raying outwards.

Our muddled thinking on 'how to save the materialists' is no exception to the above. It is fine to briefly explore certain possibilities we are pondering, but after we keep at it for too long with no clear ideas or examples of how the 'pre-phenomenological steps' could work, then we are doing more harm than good. We are not only hampering our own inner development but also raying out dissonant shockwaves into the World state, thus undermining our stated goal. All of that hypothetical exploration of 'saving the materialists' can be redeemed, however, if it is leveraged toward self-knowledge, just like the abstract philosophical and scientific theorizing can be redeemed through introspective observation of what one is doing in thinking the thoughts. Our thoughts on these topics don't arise in a soul vacuum and therefore, there are always underlying patterns that can be traced, if we approach them with an openness to that possibility. Otherwise, the shockwaves remain as unreedemed karma and the counterproductive patterns of discussion continue.

For example, tracking back to this comment:

The rest of your post is very interesting. Now we are coming to the real arguments. But I don’t have any clear ideas here. I am unable to evaluate how urgent it is that as many as possible evolve out of the negative spiritual zone, versus “it’s better to wait for future incarnations”.

Yet right after that, in response to Cleric's HHU post, you say - "It's even repeated multiple times: nothing prevents one with an open mind from HHU. If HHU is not experienced it's because of excuses, because one does not allow that comprehension to take shape."

Do you notice the dissonance here? Why does the intellect want to remain with no clear ideas, "unable" to evaluate supersensible realities, if not to continue in its speculative habits? These are the sorts of questions that can generate endless fruits for our self-knowledge if we are willing to seriously entertain them.