The Role of Poetry

[AshvinP]

A

static preservation of a past ideal state

is quite a misperception of my notion of ancient/future. I am a 'conservative' in the sense of ecological conservation but surely not in terms of the tools and awareness employed. For example, I'm quite happy that indigenous Amazonians now use smartphones linked to satellites for monitoring for illegal logging and that LIDAR monitoring is identifying ancient terra preta sites. I would be similarly impressed if moderns recognized Polynesian navigators, aboriginals in the Outback and Peruvian shamans as also very scientific with much useful knowledge and wisdom to share.

We are talking metaphysics here, right? You brought up the symbol of Lady Justice and said "the scales are the bridge touching both sides and the "peace that passeth understanding" is at the unmoving quiet point of the top". So what does the 'unmoving quiet point at the top' represent in your view?

[Lou Gold]

A

static preservation of a past ideal state

is quite a misperception of my notion of ancient/future. I am a 'conservative' in the sense of ecological conservation but surely not in terms of the tools and awareness employed. For example, I'm quite happy that indigenous Amazonians now use smartphones linked to satellites for monitoring for illegal logging and that LIDAR monitoring is identifying ancient terra preta sites. I would be similarly impressed if moderns recognized Polynesian navigators, aboriginals in the Outback and Peruvian shamans as also very scientific with much useful knowledge and wisdom to share.

We are talking metaphysics here, right? You brought up the symbol of Lady Justice and said "the scales are the bridge touching both sides and the "peace that passeth understanding" is at the unmoving quiet point of the top". So what does the 'unmoving quiet point at the top' represent in your view?

It represents the "peace that passeth understanding" -- exactly as I said! It cannot be described but it can be felt palpably as is the case in the hand of Lady Justice.

[AshvinP]

A is quite a misperception of my notion of ancient/future. I am a 'conservative' in the sense of ecological conservation but surely not in terms of the tools and awareness employed. For example, I'm quite happy that indigenous Amazonians now use smartphones linked to satellites for monitoring for illegal logging and that LIDAR monitoring is identifying ancient terra preta sites. I would be similarly impressed if moderns recognized Polynesian navigators, aboriginals in the Outback and Peruvian shamans as also very scientific with much useful knowledge and wisdom to share.

We are talking metaphysics here, right? You brought up the symbol of Lady Justice and said "the scales are the bridge touching both sides and the "peace that passeth understanding" is at the unmoving quiet point of the top". So what does the 'unmoving quiet point at the top' represent in your view?

It represents the "peace that passeth understanding" -- exactly as I said! It cannot be described but it can be felt palpably as is the case in the hand of Lady Justice.

Well whatever it represents, the "unmoving" and "quiet" aspects seem pretty static to me. The traditional Eastern symbols of never-ending circle, cycle of seasons, life cycle, reincarnation cycles, etc. are also static in so far as they imply we, as individuals and collectives, are continuously returning to the same point, without any true metaphysical novelty.

[Lou Gold]

The traditional Eastern symbols of never-ending circle, cycle of seasons, life cycle, reincarnation cycles, etc. are also static in so far as they imply we, as individuals and collectives, are continuously returning to the same point, without any true metaphysical novelty.

Same in the Western vision of "there's a season for all under heaven." The constant is hardly static. It expresses the 'now' where all meaning and purpose, wonder and terror, power and glory, blah and blah are lived. So be it.

[AshvinP]

The traditional Eastern symbols of never-ending circle, cycle of seasons, life cycle, reincarnation cycles, etc. are also static in so far as they imply we, as individuals and collectives, are continuously returning to the same point, without any true metaphysical novelty.

Same in the Western vision of "there's a season for all under heaven." The constant is hardly static. It expresses the 'now' where all meaning and purpose, wonder and terror, power and glory, blah and blah are lived. So be it.

The Western tradition, as exemplified by the Judeo-Christian scripture, is much more progressive with its symbolism that evolves over time. This process in the OT is laid out well in The Disappearance of God: A Divine Mystery, where God interacts with humans less and less and in more abstract ways as the story progresses, and the human individual takes on more and more autonomy and responsibility. (that book has a very interesting side discussion about the connection between Dostoevsky and Nietzsche which alone makes it worthwhile reading). Of course, this process culminates in the incarnation of God in man.

But it doesn't even end there, because we then get an evolution of the symbolic structure from the Gospel of Mark to the Gospel of John, continuing into the book of Acts and Paul's epistles. It is a very complex topic, but generally the Messianic figure of Christ is associated more and more with God himself. I am not sure how much revelatory importance you place on scripture, but for anyone who does, we must ask ourselves how that relates to our lives and spiritual progression as individuals. Jung conceived of Christ as the archetype of individuation, the process we all undertake in our lives and have the capacity to bring to its completion (which is likely just the first step in other more overarching spiritual processes).

[ScottRoberts]

So, once again, not either/or but both/and (or mumorphic if that suits you better).

Mumorphism is not a case of "both/and", which is the third horn of the tetralemma (X and not-X). Rather, it is a relation for which we have no conventional term, hence my making up the term "tetralemmic polarity". We can ascertain that a conscious act necessarily involves both formlessness and form, but since each of the poles constitute each other as they work against each other, one cannot simply understand conscious acts as "both formlessness and form".

I suspect I would call the relation between individual and collective a tetralemmic polarity, so not "both/and", but haven't really thought it through.

[Lou Gold]

So, once again, not either/or but both/and (or mumorphic if that suits you better).

Mumorphism is not a case of "both/and", which is the third horn of the tetralemma (X and not-X). Rather, it is a relation for which we have no conventional term, hence my making up the term "tetralemmic polarity". We can ascertain that a conscious act necessarily involves both formlessness and form, but since each of the poles constitute each other as they work against each other, one cannot simply understand conscious acts as "both formlessness and form".

I suspect I would call the relation between individual and collective a tetralemmic polarity, so not "both/and", but haven't really thought it through.

Yup, I'm aware of that Scott and was offering "mumorphic" as another alternative to Ashvin. I agree, "one cannot simply understand conscious acts as "both formlessness and form". It's a complex process and not a mere mix. I suspect that resolving the individual/collective polarity involve not a present mix but moving toward both a new individual and a new collective.

[Lou Gold]

Staying with the theme of the metaphysical role of poetry, check out the way this poetic prose creates a metaphysical murmuration called Convergent Imagining.

[AshvinP]

So, once again, not either/or but both/and (or mumorphic if that suits you better).

Mumorphism is not a case of "both/and", which is the third horn of the tetralemma (X and not-X). Rather, it is a relation for which we have no conventional term, hence my making up the term "tetralemmic polarity". We can ascertain that a conscious act necessarily involves both formlessness and form, but since each of the poles constitute each other as they work against each other, one cannot simply understand conscious acts as "both formlessness and form".

I suspect I would call the relation between individual and collective a tetralemmic polarity, so not "both/and", but haven't really thought it through.

Yup, I'm aware of that Scott and was offering "mumorphic" as another alternative to Ashvin. I agree, "one cannot simply understand conscious acts as "both formlessness and form". It's a complex process and not a mere mix. I suspect that resolving the individual/collective polarity involve not a present mix but moving toward both a new individual and a new collective.

Individual-Collective is a polarity, in so far as an individual cannot exist without a collective of individuals and vice versa. But what I initially responded to was your "bridge to wokeness", which I assert isn't compatible with the metaphysical concept of either the healthy individual or the healthy collective, because it denies metaphysical freedom (which is not to be equated with political or civic freedom, although they are clearly related). From my understanding, you were then suggesting another polarity could be metaphysical freedom(F)-unfreedom, or we could experience F and not F, which is what I claim to be impossible.