Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

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SanteriSatama
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

Post by SanteriSatama »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:27 pm I don't know what you mean by "subjecting pure mathematics... to applied mathematics". Cantor's math is just a tool in a toolkit - if it's the best tool to get any specific job done, then it's the tool which should be used.
Calculus is a tool in the toolkit of applied math. Cantor's completed infinities, set theory etc. are not necessary for a rocket scientist of artillery officer to do their calculations. They are failed attempts to coherently justify Newton's calculus, and its offspring, from the side of pure mathematics.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to construct mathematics, to which some better version of calculus fits coherently, on the contrary. Bridging the gap is a major challenge, but not impossible. Cantorian approach to that challenge is now like trying to run before you have learned to walk, stumbling, and then yelling with your face in the mud that there can't be a better way to bridge the gap! "It works, bitches!" is the voice of resentment from that embarrassed and ashamed fall. The aim is for more coherent theory that can say: "It works, lovely!"
the aims must be considered from an individual perspective (maybe family) if we want to make any spiritual progress. Once we get to the level of state, nation, planet, extra-terrestrial civilizations, etc., then we are just picking and choosing frames of reference which serve to make the argument work in favor of our personal preferences. And we are also dealing with a level of complexity that is near impossible to analyze in normal waking consciousness.
If "considered" is here in complementary and inclusive meaning, agreed to some extent. On the level of individual separation, which still is fully bounded by Subject-Object dualism, aim of spiritual progress is usually and mostly about seeking ways beyond the boundaries of separation. Of course the aim from separation to integration is not an on-off situation, it's a process of various degrees, degrees which are not measurable in any simple quantitative scale. Uniqueness and unique perspectives are not lost by boundaries dissolving and expanding awareness. Which, of course, is not limited to the intellectual domain. Meaningful informing comes also from whole to parts, with growing degree of coherence and consensus:
A major part of my spiritual faith is believing what works best to stimulate my innate individual sense of meaning, what JP refers to as "orienting mechanism", is also what works best for larger scale systems.
Orienting mechanism, guidance, inspiration, comes through many layers, which include also competing archetypal/evolutionary principles, constantly rebalancing each other in dynamic process. A core principle following also from pragmatic truth theory is that movement must keep on moving.
ScottRoberts
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

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For the record, Peirce called himself an objective idealist. I think that Wikipedia bit on Peirce is misleading.

As to mathematical pragmatism, my view is that pragmatic truth is one thing for applied math and another for pure math. For pure math it is about whether the results one gets from working in and on a particular system are interesting and fruitful (G. H. Hardy would say "beautiful") regardless of any non-mathematical application.
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AshvinP
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

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re: pure/applied math distinction I will go with what Scott said since I am in no position myself to evaluate any mathematical framework. I was just speaking from general pragmatic principles.
SanteriSatama wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:30 pm Orienting mechanism, guidance, inspiration, comes through many layers, which include also competing archetypal/evolutionary principles, constantly rebalancing each other in dynamic process. A core principle following also from pragmatic truth theory is that movement must keep on moving.
Yes, the overall process definitely keeps moving. My point was that our rational cognition is generally not ahead of our innate 'orienting mechanism' in revealing to us what is deeply meaningful, and therefore what ennobles life and is a proper spiritual aim. That is a result of the evolutionary process. Time generally speeds up when engaged in meaningful aims and we are awash in an unmistakable sense of satisfaction, despite (or because of) the sacrifice-suffering that it will necessarily entail. As JP suggests, it is often, if not exclusively, activity associated with adoption of personal responsibility.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
SanteriSatama
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

Post by SanteriSatama »

ScottRoberts wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:18 am As to mathematical pragmatism, my view is that pragmatic truth is one thing for applied math and another for pure math. For pure math it is about whether the results one gets from working in and on a particular system are interesting and fruitful (G. H. Hardy would say "beautiful") regardless of any non-mathematical application.
Agreed.
Peter Jones
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

Post by Peter Jones »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:41 pm We can ditch the word theism and just say there is no incompatibility between Judeo-Christian scripture, metaphysical non-dualism and a personal, supreme God as found in that scripture. In fact, it could be argued that scripture necessitates metaphysical non-dualism, and the reality is that the concept of anything other than non-dualism would not have occurred to any authors of scripture. Arguably not to any Christian theologians before the tail end of the Middle Ages. All of that is assuming "metaphysical dualism" means the existence of a separate yet equally real 'material' world which is not pervaded with living, conscious beings.
Okay. We'll have to agree to disagree.
SanteriSatama
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

Post by SanteriSatama »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:42 am Yes, the overall process definitely keeps moving. My point was that our rational cognition is generally not ahead of our innate 'orienting mechanism' in revealing to us what is deeply meaningful, and therefore what ennobles life and is a proper spiritual aim. That is a result of the evolutionary process. Time generally speeds up when engaged in meaningful aims and we are awash in an unmistakable sense of satisfaction, despite (or because of) the sacrifice-suffering that it will necessarily entail. As JP suggests, it is often, if not exclusively, activity associated with adoption of personal responsibility.
I agree with the point about rational cognition. In wider perspective, process of evolution with its various complementary levels and aspects, can be said to be the overall aim, the purpose in and for itself without references to external motivations.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

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SanteriSatama wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:59 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:42 am Yes, the overall process definitely keeps moving. My point was that our rational cognition is generally not ahead of our innate 'orienting mechanism' in revealing to us what is deeply meaningful, and therefore what ennobles life and is a proper spiritual aim. That is a result of the evolutionary process. Time generally speeds up when engaged in meaningful aims and we are awash in an unmistakable sense of satisfaction, despite (or because of) the sacrifice-suffering that it will necessarily entail. As JP suggests, it is often, if not exclusively, activity associated with adoption of personal responsibility.
I agree with the point about rational cognition. In wider perspective, process of evolution with its various complementary levels and aspects, can be said to be the overall aim, the purpose in and for itself without references to external motivations.
Perhaps, viewed from the top-down, instinctively, life loves life and creativity loves creativity. It's not possible to attribute external motivations or intent to the All. Why might it be needed?
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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AshvinP
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

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Lou Gold wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:22 pm
SanteriSatama wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:59 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:42 am Yes, the overall process definitely keeps moving. My point was that our rational cognition is generally not ahead of our innate 'orienting mechanism' in revealing to us what is deeply meaningful, and therefore what ennobles life and is a proper spiritual aim. That is a result of the evolutionary process. Time generally speeds up when engaged in meaningful aims and we are awash in an unmistakable sense of satisfaction, despite (or because of) the sacrifice-suffering that it will necessarily entail. As JP suggests, it is often, if not exclusively, activity associated with adoption of personal responsibility.
I agree with the point about rational cognition. In wider perspective, process of evolution with its various complementary levels and aspects, can be said to be the overall aim, the purpose in and for itself without references to external motivations.
Perhaps, viewed from the top-down, instinctively, life loves life and creativity loves creativity. It's not possible to attribute external motivations or intent to the All. Why might it be needed?
Certainly not "external" motivations. I think we have to be open to the possibility that there is an overarching internal purpose to evolutionary process that we are not aware of now. As long as we remain open and humble, we will not prematurely foreclose on any possibilities.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Lou Gold
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:22 pm
SanteriSatama wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:59 pm

I agree with the point about rational cognition. In wider perspective, process of evolution with its various complementary levels and aspects, can be said to be the overall aim, the purpose in and for itself without references to external motivations.
Perhaps, viewed from the top-down, instinctively, life loves life and creativity loves creativity. It's not possible to attribute external motivations or intent to the All. Why might it be needed?
Certainly not "external" motivations. I think we have to be open to the possibility that there is an overarching internal purpose to evolutionary process that we are not aware of now. As long as we remain open and humble, we will not prematurely foreclose on any possibilities.
.

Another name for "overarching internal purpose" is "instinct". Idealism is surely open to all possibilities. One could be that humans are destined to force themselves off the earth thus spreading life (bacteria) out of the garden and into the cosmos. After all, for the Eternal beyond space-time, what's the problem with it taking a few billion years for new gardens to flourish? Indeed, without time, what's the meaning of evolution? However, within time "What's good for the Seventh Generation to come?" is a highly meaningful question, the answer to which will surely involve some external regulations. Then comes, "Whose ox is gored?" Then comes politics. Oooooops. So sorry!
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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AshvinP
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Re: Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson

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Lou Gold wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:32 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:22 pm

Perhaps, viewed from the top-down, instinctively, life loves life and creativity loves creativity. It's not possible to attribute external motivations or intent to the All. Why might it be needed?
Certainly not "external" motivations. I think we have to be open to the possibility that there is an overarching internal purpose to evolutionary process that we are not aware of now. As long as we remain open and humble, we will not prematurely foreclose on any possibilities.
.

Another name for "overarching internal purpose" is "instinct". Idealism is surely open to all possibilities. One could be that humans are destined to force themselves off the earth thus spreading life (bacteria) out of the garden and into the cosmos. After all, for the Eternal beyond space-time, what's the problem with it taking a few billion years for new gardens to flourish? Indeed, without time, what's the meaning of evolution? However, within time "What's good for the Seventh Generation to come?" is a highly meaningful question, the answer to which will surely involve some external regulations. Then comes, "Whose ox is gored?" Then comes politics. Oooooops. So sorry!
Lou, with all due respect, I think you are working in the wrong direction. Our instincts reflect one aspect of life's purpose to survive and reproduce, which then reveals, in combination with other aspects, the overarching purpose of the explorative evolutionary process itself. The question then becomes whether there is another overarching purpose(s) which will be revealed by the explorative process. In that same manner, the 'political' aspects of our experience in social settings should lead towards the more fundamental metaphysical-spiritual questions about those social settings as opposed to other way around. I anticipate your answer will be something akin to "we can work in all directions at the same time" so maybe we can just pre-emptively agree to disagree on that one ;)
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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