Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Simon Adams
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

Post by Simon Adams »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:13 pm If Ideation as the ontological imperative is fundamental and uncaused, then of the seeming infinitude of novel ideas comprising the cosmos which one was not inevitable?
Hi Dana

I think there is fundamental stuff all things are made of, and we could call that mind (or spirit, or phenomenal consciousness), and yes ideation is a way of describing what it does. You could say that it becomes the things that are. Where we differ is the belief that this is itself uncaused. The very fact it changes, makes it part of the world of contingent things, and contingent things can’t give existence to themselves.

I suspect you will think that I am confusing the phenomenal ‘substrate’ for the contents or patterns of the substrate, and if so I can understand why you think that. Nonetheless I see a root of being that doesn’t change, the non contingent ground, and the start of the universal mind is “let there be light”.
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Simon Adams wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:46 pmand the start of the universal mind is “let there be light”.


Well this is the challenge, tracing the idea 'let there be light' to a point of origin other than the ever-now cognitive 'big bang' ~ i.e. not a process unfolding in time ~ that BK alludes to in chapter 6, titled Deconstructing Truth, of More Than Allegory.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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I don't see how "let there be light" can precede being. Might it be because pure potential is in the dark? In some traditions this is the "pregnant void" or "mysterious womb". The point is that Life is an instinctual process fine tuned for living/dying process. Manifest or potential, Life instinctually creates life. How can this not be "fine tuned"? Again, as JC says, "If I planned it, it won't happen."

Again, I'm neither a philosopher or a musician and yet somehow I can grok just about everything being analytically discussed here in the forum as flowing forth as creativity creates in this amazing (to me) interview:



And, for comparative purposes, feel how vitally ALIVE this is in comparison with the palpable woundedness that flows through the "Gabor Maté on Jordan Peterson" discussion.
Last edited by Lou Gold on Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Eugene I
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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A few thoughts on the origin of "time".
Simon Adams wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:04 amA fundamental part of this problem is that time itself started with the physical universe in which it seems that much of the fine tuning (arguably including all the key constants) were already set. If they were different, even if time was produced it would end - often very quickly. So how does something that is ‘raw phenomenal consciousness’ instinctively try different fundamental ‘settings’ before time exists? This idea of evolving via trial and error seems like a natural idea to us, but that’s because we do everything in time, and think of temporal processes.
Well, the time of the observable "physicalist" universe does not have to be the same as the "time" of the ideational activity of the MAL, those can be different time realms.

But anyway, the origin of time/change is indeed a challenging problem. If there ever "was" a prior-to-time changeless state, then the very act of the beginning of time would itself be a change, but how would any change occur in unchangeable state in the first place? IMO the only non-self-contradictory assumption would be that the "change" is a fundamental and ever-present property of the ontic reality of consciousness. On the other hand, there is simultaneously a non-changing property of consciousness - the awareness. The mystery is that the unchangeable (awareness) and changeable (phenomenal experiences) properties simultaneously coexist in every instance of our conscious experience, and it's a simple fact of our every-moment direct conscious experience. This resolves the dichotomy of time-vs-timelessness.

I remember Rigpa wrote a good essay on the nature of time in the old forum. The idea is that "time" is an abstraction, but the fact of our direct experience is simply an ever-changing phenomenal content of the ever-present conscious experience that always happens "NOW". In other words, the "time" is always "NOW", but the "picture" of NOW is always changing. The faculty of memory lets us to be able to recall the contents of the past experiences and thereby creates an impression of the succession of time, but in reality every recollection of the past experiences always occurs in the same moment of NOW. Since in such view the "time" is gone (or recognized as a not-so-accurate mental representation of the reality), the question of the beginning of time also becomes irrelevant.

Now, coming back to the meta-cognition question, lets start from a set of simple premises within the framework of idealism (granted, they themselves being disputable): the ontic fundamental of consciousness has fundamental properties to be aware, to create and experience a change of its phenomenal content that it is aware of, to have an infinite variety of inter-related phenomena, and to have an "impulse"/will to express and experience a never-ending variety of forms. Given such conditions, a variety of phenomenal contents are constantly "fountaining" in the now-experience of the global consciousness. It would be pretty much a random bullion, but there is also a selection mechanism that gives preferences to more "satisfactory" experiences, and such selection mechanism would be guiding an evolutionary natural selection process of the development of conscious states.

Now, I can see three possible developmental scenarios here, and the question is which of the scenarios would be more likely:

1. The development of non-meta-cognitive ideational states of a physicalist character (a variety of "imagined" by the MAL physicalist universes) leading though natural selection to the fine tuning resulting in the universe where meta-cognitive forms of life can exist as the "alters" of the MAL. This is the BK's scenario.

2. The development of non-meta-cognitive states evolving into more refined and eventually meta-cognitive purely mental states of the single non-divided MAL. The ideational states of the physicalist character do not occur until the state of meta-cognition is attained. But once the state of meta-cognition is achieved (at which point such MAL becomes a "God" in our human terminology), MAL subsequently pre-meditatively decides to create the "souls and the world" and goes on to dissociate into alters, create the ideations of the astral universe and the physicalist-looking universe to give the alters the world with favorable conditions to evolve. This is a theistic scenario. The problem of evil/suffering can be resolved through the assumption that the alters freely and voluntarily agree to incarnate into humans and experience all the sufferings of human life prior to the incarnation (how it happens with animals is a more tricky question).

3. The development of non-meta-cognitive states first through the fragmentation process of dissociation into alters, and then each alter evolving into more refined and eventually meta-cognitive states. In this scenario the result is a community of meta-cognitive conscious alters that further cooperate in creating a variety of astral and physicalist realities where they can "incarnate" and evolve further. The hierarchy of such universes fits into the hierarchy of the spiritual developmental stages of the alters, or, in other words, the groups of alters create the realms/universes for themselves where they can find the most favorable conditions to evolve further. This is a-la-Buddhist scenario.

The data of the regression and NDE studies clearly do not support the scenario #1, but leaves the choice between #2 and #3 indecisive.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Eugene I wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:11 pm A few thoughts on the origin of "time".

Now, I can see three possible developmental scenarios here, and the question is which of the scenarios would be more likely:

1. The development of non-meta-cognitive ideational states of a physicalist character (a variety of "imagined" by the MAL physicalist universes) leading though natural selection to the fine tuning resulting in the universe where meta-cognitive forms of life can exist as the "alters" of the MAL. This is the BK's scenario.

2. The development of non-meta-cognitive states evolving into more refined and eventually meta-cognitive purely mental states of the single non-divided MAL. The ideational states of the physicalist character do not occur until the state of meta-cognition is attained. But once the state of meta-cognition is achieved (at which point such MAL becomes a "God" in our human terminology), MAL subsequently pre-meditatively decides to create the "souls and the world" and goes on to dissociate into alters, create the ideations of the astral universe and the physicalist-looking universe to give the alters the world with favorable conditions to evolve. This is a theistic scenario. The problem of evil/suffering can be resolved through the assumption that the alters freely and voluntarily agree to incarnate into humans and experience all the sufferings of human life prior to the incarnation (how it happens with animals is a more tricky question).

3. The development of non-meta-cognitive states first through the fragmentation process of dissociation into alters, and then each alter evolving into more refined and eventually meta-cognitive states. In this scenario the result is a community of meta-cognitive conscious alters that further cooperate in creating a variety of astral and physicalist realities where they can "incarnate" and evolve further. The hierarchy of such universes fits into the hierarchy of the spiritual developmental stages of the alters, or, in other words, the groups of alters create the realms/universes for themselves where they can find the most favorable conditions to evolve further. This is a-la-Buddhist scenario.

The data of the regression and NDE studies clearly do not support the scenario #1, but leaves the choice between #2 and #3 indecisive.
Eugene, since you are both a musician and philosopher way above my paygrade, I'd be most interested in learning how you would place the Jacob Collier interview (above in the thread) within your developmental scheme?
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:17 pm Eugene, since you are both a musician and philosopher way above my paygrade, I'd be most interested in learning how you would place the Jacob Collier interview (above in the thread) within your developmental scheme?
Well, that's a good topic to discuss (which would probably be an off-topic here), which is the dynamics of the developmental process and the role of creativity and unconscious in it. Jacob elaborated on the "multi-dimensional" quality of the process, and I entirely agree with him. But there is something more mysterious to it - the generic creativity side of it, which is irreducible to a rule-following mechanical process of evolution. Even the multi-dimensionality can be mechanically incorporated into the rule set of the developmental process, but genuine creativity seems to break any pre-conceived rules. Somehow the creativity is able to find solutions and forms that could never be deterministically or algorithmically derived from the prior knowledge and experience, nor they could be found by a random solution search (because the possible state of solutions is too vast to traverse). This process is a total mystery to me, even though I experienced it many times in my musical and engineering creative activities, and it usually happens without any meta-conscious control. So, creativity adds another dimension to the developmental process in addition to the meta-cognition, and the question arises whether creativity is a fundamental property of consciousness, or whether it is something of a developmental nature and a result of the evolution of consciousness.
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:07 pm I don't see how "let there be light" can precede being.
I guess the big difference in what I am suggesting is ‘being’ has to be given to any thing (or thing-in-itself) before it can experience, ideate or manifest itself. So before everything, you have just the one, being and essence, with no properties, not changing. With ‘let there be light’, being is given to something that is not the one, creating a relative reality in which things can change, be separate, ideate, have properties etc

From my perspective each of us is given being, as well as the fact we are made of consciousness/spirit. I believe that we retain this individual being after death, and are not absorbed back into the universe as BK believes.
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
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Eugene I
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Simon Adams wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:04 pm From my perspective each of us is given being, as well as the fact we are made of consciousness/spirit. I believe that we retain this individual being after death, and are not absorbed back into the universe as BK believes.
The question is whether you interpret the "being" (alternatively called "self") as an "entity" or as a process. An "entity" is something self-sufficiently and autonomously existing beyond any conditions or processes but able to interact with other similar entities (a-la-Leibnitz monadology scheme). The problem is that if multiple entities can interact with each other, then they must be "made of" the same "stuff" of the same nature (otherwise they would not be able to interact). In this case they are actually simply various forms of the same nature, or various processes occurring in the same nature, rather than separate "entities", and the "being"/"self" becomes simply a linguistic term for these autonomous processes/forms. These individuated conscious processes continue to evolve based on the dynamics of their developmental history (where the previous states of the process to a certain extent determine the consequent states). The seeming continuity of the processes of individual consciousness creates an illusion of the continuous existence of an "entity" behind each process. We just had a long discussion with Cleric on this topic in another thread.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Simon Adams wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:04 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:07 pm I don't see how "let there be light" can precede being.
I guess the big difference in what I am suggesting is ‘being’ has to be given to any thing (or thing-in-itself) before it can experience, ideate or manifest itself. So before everything, you have just the one, being and essence, with no properties, not changing. With ‘let there be light’, being is given to something that is not the one, creating a relative reality in which things can change, be separate, ideate, have properties etc

From my perspective each of us is given being, as well as the fact we are made of consciousness/spirit. I believe that we retain this individual being after death, and are not absorbed back into the universe as BK believes.
I agree that Being gives being. In terms of the thread topic, I'm adding that Being does not have to be metacognitive. The puzzle is usually expressed as why is the Universe fine-tuned for life, does this not require pre-cognition or a plan? I am responding by asking, "How can Life NOT be fine tuned for life?"
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Re: Cosmic Consciousness: meta-cognitive or non-meta-cognitive?

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Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:25 pm I agree that Being gives being. In terms of the thread topic, I'm adding that Being does not have to be metacognitive. The puzzle is usually expressed as why is the Universe fine-tuned for life, does this not require pre-cognition or a plan? I am responding by asking, "How can Life NOT be fine tuned for life?"
There is a now-popular "multiverse" theory of nature which assumes a vast variety of versions of the universes with different sets of laws coexist, and we just happen to live in one of those universes where the laws and the set of fundamental constants allow for the development of life and meta-cognitive consciousness. In physics the number of possible variants of string theories is around 10^500, with each corresponding to its existing version of a universe. A similar approach can be used in idealism.
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