How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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Lou Gold
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

Post by Lou Gold »

Cleric K wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:00 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:48 pm Yup! Clearly, one can be blinded by the light as easily as lost in the dark. The challenge is always, balance or right amount. Bucky's lingo was surely more better. Even in Judeo-Christian hierarchical archetypology, the Archangel holds the 'dark one' at right distance, in balance without slaying him. It is the conquesting, colonizing, superior thinking ones who believe they can defeat/deny the dreaded who make things worse than they need to be. Good working relationship with the Source involves appreciating (seeing full value) in all that flows from It. "There's a season for all under heaven." Conqueror beware.
And this is why we need to know our relative position. If we are in the place of some Creator and we are laying down the principles of the universe, it would be meaningful to think in the above lines. And we can truly feel the truthfulness of the above - yes, from the perspective of Cosmic Source/Void it's all about rhythmical alterations between the Cosmic Feminine and Cosmic Masculine (happy holiday to all representatives of the Great Mother). But we can find our path toward balance only if we have the full picture.

Here's an analogy. Let's imagine the balance as a seesaw. Let's further imagine that this seesaw is on one end of a much larger seesaw. Both can be on one end of an even bigger seesaw and so on. This is a limited analogy because just like any fractal analogy, it presents things as too rigid branching structure. Nevertheless, it can serve as an illustration for the following: if we are conscious only of our seesaw, even if we balance it perfectly, this doesn't at all tell us what our position is in relation to the larger. The bigger is a higher order seesaw, our oscillations are within its context and we need higher order consciousness in order to perceive that everything we do in our normal state is carried on these higher order oscillations.

The above analogy illustrates why someone who seems to act one-sidedly may be actually striving to work for balancing of a higher order imbalance. And conversely, if we perfectly balance our perceptible seesaw (for example the self/no-self seesaw) and just rest peacefully, believing that we've accomplished our Cosmic duty, we're simply being blissfully ignorant of the higher order imbalances that must be addressed.

That we are living within higher order imbalances is quite clear if we simply look with unprejudiced eye. It's quite obvious that the balance of dark and light is something that must be balanced on a much higher level. Just a look around shows that there's way more darkness than light. We should really strive "one-sidedly" toward the light if we want to restore the higher order seesaws. If we really believe that it's all about balancing the perceptible seesaws we arrive at multitude of nonsensical ideas. For example: it's discriminatory/one-sided to be healthy - we should have equal parts health and sickness. It's one-sided to strive for truth - we need balance between truth and lies. It's one sided to seek wisdom - we need balance between wisdom and stupidity. It's one sided to strive for peace - we need balance between peace and war. We need balance between clean air and pollution. We need balance between love and hatred. Balance between honest work and crime. The list can go on and on. We don't even need higher knowledge to perceive the logical fallacy here. It's just healthy common sense (of course things get nowhere if it's believed that healthy common sense is one-sided and some irrationality must be added to balance it out).


Sorry, but your endless analogies simply don't work for me. Here's an excellent example:

For example: it's discriminatory/one-sided to be healthy - we should have equal parts health and sickness.

Of course not but your strawman of "equal parts" does not defeat the "steelman" of needing to adjust the balance to changing conditions. The great irony of the post-Columbian plague that wiped out 90% of the indigenous population of the Americas is that the "too healthy" natives had no defenses against the disease-ridden Europeans who arrived with immunities born of centuries of plagues. Somewhat similarly, it's a big current surprise that sub-Saharan African is doing quite well compared to early expectations in the global pandemic. Many factors are involved, including having a youthful population, but the epidemiologists feel that decades of living in close proximity and vulnerability to epidemics has borne a population that is more resilient both physically, behaviorally and societally. As Shu noted, appropriately, "Turn, Turn, Turn."
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Cleric K
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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AshvinP wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:27 am Now only if I could balance out my gluttony with bulimia :shock:
:D
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:38 pm Yes, this is where we continue to perhaps have a different view. I take it that once a given stage has served its integral function, and one is ripe for the next stage, then one intuitively is attracted in that direction, and undertakes whatever work may be involved with that transition, and resistance is futile, no more than the caterpillar can resist spinning its chrysalis. And if one is not ripe for that transition, then any work in that regard will simply be of no interest or attraction.
Yes, views differ. I'm not arguing right vs. wrong. I'm speaking of my own experience. In the sense of Lou's "whatever works" I can say what doesn't work for me and that's flowing on the path of least resistance. Although this is a universal principle (even Lagrangian mechanics successfully reformulated Newton's through similar principle) as far as my spiritual experience is concerned, one has to go against the resistance of the worldly stream most of the time.

Here's an analogy (sorry Lou :) ). An adolescent needs balance between work/study and play. As long as there's balance all goes relatively easy. If play begins to outweigh study then the latter begins to pile up. Then there's an inflexion point where returning to study becomes outright difficult and the path of least resistance would be to keep on the downslope of play. This again connects with the seesaws. It could be that the child feels completely balanced by flowing with its impulse for play yet the higher order imbalanced seesaw is outside its consciousness. That's why it's the role of the adults to guide the developing child. If the child is to ever go again towards balance it would have to swim upstream, against the resistance of the currents. Nothing comes for free.

I can give many examples from my life but I'll just mention one - one of the things I really struggle with is sloth. I admit that I'm having hard time with it. And if I let go and flow with the least resistance, things will simply go from bad to worse. And that's why it's so important for me to have the High Ideal. Even though I'm off-balance, at least in consciousness I can widen my horizons and perceive the direction to be worked towards. Only in this way it's possible to exert effort in a direction against the not at all futile resistance and have clear knowledge why it's all worth it. And that's just one example. Things become even more challenging when our activity is no longer only personal but should flow in the outer world. Then resistance can become crushing.
Lou Gold wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:39 am Sorry, but your endless analogies simply don't work for me. Here's an excellent example:

For example: it's discriminatory/one-sided to be healthy - we should have equal parts health and sickness.

Of course not but your strawman of "equal parts" does not defeat the "steelman" of needing to adjust the balance to changing conditions. The great irony of the post-Columbian plague that wiped out 90% of the indigenous population of the Americas is that the "too healthy" natives had no defenses against the disease-ridden Europeans who arrived with immunities born of centuries of plagues. Somewhat similarly, it's a big current surprise that sub-Saharan African is doing quite well compared to early expectations in the global pandemic. Many factors are involved, including having a youthful population, but the epidemiologists feel that decades of living in close proximity and vulnerability to epidemics has borne a population that is more resilient both physically, behaviorally and societally. As Shu noted, appropriately, "Turn, Turn, Turn."
OK. I don't see how your example is a counter-argument to what I say but anyway. I don't envision 'health' as living in a sterile environment so that one is isolated from all contact with potential pathogens. The point is that one doesn't need to seek disease to balance health - this simply makes no sense, one is not healthier if he always keeps half of his body sick. We should strive "one-sidedly" towards strength and health. Diseases will stand against us at certain times even if we don't seek them. Then who has better chance of surviving the changing conditions? One who has been keeping himself half-sick so that he's 'friend' and 'solidary' with diseases, since they also have their place under the Sun? Or one who every day works to draw upon the forces of clean water and air, healthy food, Sunlight, who is in high spirits through constant prayer linking to Divine Life?

This holds true for everything. There's no need to worry that we'll become 'too wise' or 'too virtuous'. At the moment we decide to go in that direction the whole world will go against us. No need to add obstacles ourselves, so that we can be 'in balance'. The obstacles will come and resist our way even if we don't want them.

The "Turn" song shows the peculiarities of times quite well. The whole lyrics sing "balance, balance, balance" and at the end, suddenly, "It's time for peace". OK - I'm all in for that. But where did this come from? To use scientific language: where did this symmetry-breaking principle come from? If a politician rubs his hands together with a grin on his face and says "It's time for war", who is to say who's wrong and who's right? This is the whole paradox of the multi-path, balance-all philosophy. If everything has it's place under Heaven who is to say that the colonial West is not in its rightful position? Maybe that's what living Nature wants? I would have no argument against someone who says "everything has its place under Heaven" and accepts with tranquility both war and peace, both love and murder. I wouldn't know how to respond to that - it's a valid philosophical position. But if it's said that everything must be in balance while at the same time it's insisted that people are doing it in the wrong way, we need some way to show how and why our position represents a 'higher truth'. And here's where this philosophy comes into inconsistency with itself. At one hand everything should express freely without following any direction because that's one-sidedness. On the other, a few assume that their view of balance is more correct and the whole world should align with them. And so much for the free diversity. Suddenly we have the pyramid again. What's the reasoning behind non-hierarchy if it can only exist if all individual agents must be synchronized in the practice of the same version of 'non-hierarchy'. Somehow the non-hierarchy still needs its church, otherwise every agent will have its own idea of balance and once again mutual accusations "You're doing it wrong" start all over again.

And before accusing me that I promote some church - no. I only try to hint that reality has already perfectly well working hierarchical structure. Not one made of corrupt politicians but one of living idea-beings. The question is do men want to align their ideas with Cosmic living ideas or they'll insist to do it in their own way and continue to blame everyone else for their failures.
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Cleric K
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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PS: I anticipate that the question of health and disease will become a catchword again so I would like to say in advance that I don't view disease as some enemy that we should wage war against. This should be already clear but I add it anyway. Actually, disease is a great teacher for humanity. It's a mirror of what we are still doing wrong. Diseases come because they can find the nutrition they need in men. Even mainstream medicine is forced to admit that stress and negative states overall ruin the immune system. Diseases have their place under Heaven as teachers of humans (the hard way of the stick). But disease will simply disappear when men attains to mastery over their soul and bodily life. And it's here that we'll be in error if we say "Oh no, pathogens have right to exist just as humans have". No, pathogens exist as physical consequence of sin. We should be grateful to these teachers because without them we would lose our souls without any warning signs. When sin is overcome the spiritual beings of the pathogens will have accomplished their rightful mission. They'll no longer find the nutrition they need in man and will be forced to evolve into symbiotic life. That's how wisely things stand in the Cosmos. Even though we are going into a completely different direction, as a side effect we're working also for the evolution of other beings. So even though there's relative truth that the immune system is kept 'awake' by pathogens (similarly to a muscle that would atrophy if it has no work to do), it would be spiritual shortsightedness to imagine this is how life is meant to be. Disease tries to teach us something and we're simply lousy students if we don't get the hint.
SanteriSatama
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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Cleric K wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:06 am And if I let go and flow with the least resistance, things will simply go from bad to worse. And that's why it's so important for me to have the High Ideal. Even though I'm off-balance, at least in consciousness I can widen my horizons and perceive the direction to be worked towards. Only in this way it's possible to exert effort in a direction against the not at all futile resistance and have clear knowledge why it's all worth it. And that's just one example. Things become even more challenging when our activity is no longer only personal but should flow in the outer world. Then resistance can become crushing.
We do like to have our challenges. What you say interests me because I fully embrace sloth, having been constantly warned against over-doing. Being instead of doing, very slow has also it's very peculiar way of very quick. Can you tell more concretely what bad to worse means for you?
To use scientific language: where did this symmetry-breaking principle come from?
Responding in kind with STEMish language, If we start from zero-energy ontologies with polarity as the principle of creation, we need also "symmetry breaks" in the form of increasing complexity of evolution of symmetries, so that the simplest symmetry of x and -x don't cancel each other and there's only nada instead of this wadda wow?! People wonder why there is more matter than anti-matter (and which is which? ;)). The question contains its answer. More and less is a qualitative symmetry that does not cancel each other and annihilate. And thus, Bucky's creative principle of parsimony, doing more by less, is intimately tied with sloth.
If a politician rubs his hands together with a grin on his face and says "It's time for war", who is to say who's wrong and who's right?
Well, for example I am to say that the politician is wrong and peace is better, it is the direction me and many others choose for our evolution. I accept that freedom of choice, the attached love the choice comes from, and all the responsibility that comes with. I think and feel that world peace is a good challenge of right proportion. And then, be the change you want, as the old saying goes.
This is the whole paradox of the multi-path, balance-all philosophy. If everything has it's place under Heaven who is to say that the colonial West is not in its rightful position? Maybe that's what living Nature wants?
Love thy enemy, because your enemy is your best teacher. It doesn't mean that your enemy is right, it means that your enemy deserves your deep gratitude for serving as your teacher.
I would have no argument against someone who says "everything has its place under Heaven" and accepts with tranquility both war and peace, both love and murder. I wouldn't know how to respond to that - it's a valid philosophical position.
Yes, it is a valid philosophical position, philosophy of subjective escapism by seeking ego-death, and path towards that non-attachment is characterized by reducing your subjective polarities to those that cancel each other and annihilate. That philosophical position is a mind game, not the way of the Heart.
perfectly well working hierarchical structure.
I'm perfect, there's no fault that I don't have.
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Cleric K
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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SanteriSatama wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:42 pm We do like to have our challenges. What you say interests me because I fully embrace sloth, having been constantly warned against over-doing. Being instead of doing, very slow has also it's very peculiar way of very quick. Can you tell more concretely what bad to worse means for you?
No, I don't mean sloth as the opposite of workaholism, running your legs all life and then at the death bed wondering what was all that about. It's more about the gradual weakening of the will through excuses. Gradually even a task like cleaning your room becomes a burden and makes you feel tired before you've even started.
SanteriSatama wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:42 pm Responding in kind with STEMish language, If we start from zero-energy ontologies with polarity as the principle of creation, we need also "symmetry breaks" in the form of increasing complexity of evolution of symmetries, so that the simplest symmetry of x and -x don't cancel each other and there's only nada instead of this wadda wow?! People wonder why there is more matter than anti-matter (and which is which? ). The question contains its answer. More and less is a qualitative symmetry that does not cancel each other and annihilate. And thus, Bucky's creative principle of parsimony, doing more by less, is intimately tied with sloth.
That was my point too. There is symmetry breaking. Another scientific metaphor is Cosmic hysteresis. Or Cosmic gyroscopic effect - we push naively towards a direction, yet life displaces in a perpendicular direction. Wisdom entails higher perception, cognitive of the communicating vessels the living beings are. In orbital mechanics the maneuver for changing orbital planes is executed either at the ascending or descending node. Anything else will consume more fuel that can ever be brought. This is not sloth, it's reason. The human intellectual condition is a 'flat' projection of deeper nested, hierarchical relations of idea-beings. Sloth would be if we naively push in a certain direction and wonder why our path precesses in mysterious ways. Simple - we've been too lazy to study spiritual 'orbital mechanics'. If we did, we would know what life revolves around and where are the appropriate ascending and descending nodes and in what direction we should apply our efforts such that we resynchronize human consciousness and Earth to the Harmony of Spheres.

And who's Bucky? :D
SanteriSatama
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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Cleric K wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:13 pm It's more about the gradual weakening of the will through excuses.
There can be also connection with the gradually deepening realization of "Be careful what you wish/will, cause it's gonna happen". ;)
And who's Bucky? :D
Mr. Trim Tab. Buckminster Fuller.
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Cleric K
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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SanteriSatama wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:25 pm There can be also connection with the gradually deepening realization of "Be careful what you wish/will, cause it's gonna happen". ;)
Of course, the reason is nowhere else than in myself :)
SanteriSatama wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:25 pm Mr. Trim Tab. Buckminster Fuller.
Thanks!
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Lou Gold
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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There are no rules, including this one.
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Lou Gold
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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I do find most interesting the systemic or 'homeostatic' or self-regulating response whereby that which is denied ('cancelled') actually becomes stronger. This is precisely what happened with Peterson's fight with the university woke ones. Similarly, when the materialists at TEDx censored Sheldrake's presentation the consequence was it gaining 5 million youtube views. So I would add to the advice "be careful what you wish for", "be careful about what you oppose." This, of course, is an old problem played out in many ways. Prohibition never works, as is amply and horrendously revealed historically by religious crusades/inquisitions and contemporarily by the war on drugs.
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Re: How Many 'Alters' Per 'Organism'?

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Cleric wrote: Yes, views differ. I'm not arguing right vs. wrong. I'm speaking of my own experience.


Indeed, as I too am speaking from experience, and which has perhaps been jaded by my socialworker experience, whereby hoping someone might be inclined to go where they simply are not yet ripe to go, often felt like this ...
Image
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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