Jordan Peterson with Bret Weinstein - A Metaphysical Delight

[Soul_of_Shu]

Santeri ... nice tightrope walking act ...

[Brad Walker]

Sub-280 characters and a meme. It's happening, slowly.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Sub-280 characters and a meme. It's happening, slowly.

I'm just feeling especially lazy today

[AshvinP]

At the 1hr 58 min or thereabouts of the video, JP and BW question why there is an attack on competency in our society (in education and the workplace), but they don't seem to be able to come up with an answer. Surely, the answer is obvious. Inequality by sexism and racism is still endemic, and despite BW's claim that it's been solved, efforts to address inequality have simply not gone far enough. The Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements have increased the general desire and impetus to root out inequality based on race and sex, and there is an unstated, even subconscious, recognition (or it might be better to say, a cultural imperative) that those benefiting from the current system and all bastions of privilege must have the ground beneath them radically undercut because only then, at a new, lower level, can a true meritocracy be built. Change is in the air. A new zeitgeist is being created. In their bubbles, it appears that JP and BW just can't see it.

What I can say is that the whole discussion is conceptual mess on all sides, originating with identifying equality with quantification. To offer a way out from the mess, how about these for consensus building:

Equity combined with complementarity of our unique characters and contributions.

I don't think JP and BW are out of tune with the zeitgeist, on the contrary. I think they play the role of sincere conservative caution in the zeitgeist, which is a natural and necessary part of the dialectic of new consensus building, and also the conservative caution has been progressing pretty far compared to not so long ago, and the process continues...

This might go dangerously close to political stuff, but the dark side of identity politics is that its being very consciously used by the ruling class to divide and prevent class consciousness and cooperative solidarity and mutual aid at the bottom, among the caring classes. On the other hand Covid crisis has made it much more clear what really is essential work which should be rewarded by the society at large. It's not what bankers etc. most of the bureaucratic class do, or pretend to do...

What is "equity" here?

As a consumer bankruptcy attorney, who spends most of my time helping low-income people and small businesses deal with the 'bankers etc.', i.e. give them the shaft on various debts owed, I can confidently say they are essential to any functioning economy which desires to establish a standard of living beyond abject poverty. And the people who claim they would rather have everyone live in abject poverty than rampant inequality are universally the ones who have never lived in abject poverty.

[SanteriSatama]

What is "equity" here?

Something in lines of this dictionary definition, I assume.

justice according to natural law or right specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism

I took notice that Oren Lyons uses term 'equity' instead of 'equality' when describing the Great Law of Peace. I think he chose the English term very carefully, and I'm also curious about the more detailed philosophy behind the choice. What might be the native term that is translated as 'equity', and its meaning?

As a consumer bankruptcy attorney, who spends most of my time helping low-income people and small businesses deal with the 'bankers etc.', i.e. give them the shaft on various debts owed, I can confidently say they are essential to any functioning economy which desires to establish a standard of living beyond abject poverty. And the people who claim they would rather have everyone live in abject poverty than rampant inequality are universally the ones who have never lived in abject poverty.

Even though this is very much not inside the topic of the forum, perhaps mods will allow this purely informative question to an expert in the field, satisfy concerned curiosity. How's the situation with evictions now? A judge ruled that the federal moratorium on evictions is unconstitutional, what is the situation on various state levels? Is there any practical way to fuse the time bomb situation without the whole unpaid rent-pile thing and it's various tails blowing up in a very bad way? Most of all, as media does not really cover what is going on, how bad is it already on grass roots level that you see through your profession? How do you cope with all of that yourself?

[AshvinP]

What is "equity" here?

Something in lines of this dictionary definition, I assume.

justice according to natural law or right specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism

I took notice that Oren Lyons uses term 'equity' instead of 'equality' when describing the Great Law of Peace. I think he chose the English term very carefully, and I'm also curious about the more detailed philosophy behind the choice. What might be the native term that is translated as 'equity', and its meaning?

Right, I asked because people use it in very different ways, many times to mean "equality of outcome". However "equity" is a very common term in English-American common law and generally covers situations where there is no explicit statute addressing the issue at hand, but it seems obvious someone was wronged and must be compensated. I have no problem with that, but implicit in that idea is it only comes into play in a very narrow range of circumstances.

As a consumer bankruptcy attorney, who spends most of my time helping low-income people and small businesses deal with the 'bankers etc.', i.e. give them the shaft on various debts owed, I can confidently say they are essential to any functioning economy which desires to establish a standard of living beyond abject poverty. And the people who claim they would rather have everyone live in abject poverty than rampant inequality are universally the ones who have never lived in abject poverty.

Even though this is very much not inside the topic of the forum, perhaps mods will allow this purely informative question to an expert in the field, satisfy concerned curiosity. How's the situation with evictions now? A judge ruled that the federal moratorium on evictions is unconstitutional, what is the situation on various state levels? Is there any practical way to fuse the time bomb situation without the whole unpaid rent-pile thing and it's various tails blowing up in a very bad way? Most of all, as media does not really cover what is going on, how bad is it already on grass roots level that you see through your profession? How do you cope with all of that yourself?

Well, it's hard to address this without risking political offense, but let me try by couching my opinions in some metaphysical terms

It's a terrible situation overall. Moratoriums are still in place and some jurisdictions are heeding it while others, like you pointed out, are challenging them and winning. My personal legal opinion is that it is clearly unconstitutional for a whole host of reasons. But on the economic side, which really impacts my practice, it is very much like choosing to ignore a deeply-ingrained neurosis rather than shed light on it through introspection. Full disclosure, it hurts my bottom line because it makes people think those debt-complexes are not a problem and they can ride out whatever financial struggles they are having without changing a thing, and/or that the federal government will leave the faucet running indefinitely.

But deep down we all know neither of those things will happen, and regardless of how badly it affects my practice in the short-term, I know it will be even worse for my would-be clients. None of that debt is being forgiven, no Leviticus-style jubilees. And even if there was any will to do such a thing, it would completely devastate the property owners and commercial landlords. It's only rolling the snowball further down the hill, as has become the American tradition for just about everything now. The market incentives and pricing mechanisms are all out of whack, like split-brain patients whose left brain is inventing BS stories to explain what the right brain did but couldn't communicate.

So, yeah, it's bad. It's especially bad when the most efficient defusing mechanism, the federal bankruptcy system, is circumvented by politicians who just want people to remember they were the ones who handed out "free" money when the next election cycle rolls around. Yet that money is anything but free. It's simply another form of debt slavery, where the people being enslaved don't even know it. I have never seen the cognitive dissonance among my clients so high, where they are living rent- or mortgage-free but still feeling stressed out to the max and can't understand why. The chickens will come home to roost for sure, but how that plays out exactly... your guess is as good as mine.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Even though this is very much not inside the topic of the forum, perhaps mods will allow this purely informative question to an expert in the field, satisfy concerned curiosity. How's the situation with evictions now? A judge ruled that the federal moratorium on evictions is unconstitutional, what is the situation on various state levels? Is there any practical way to fuse the time bomb situation without the whole unpaid rent-pile thing and it's various tails blowing up in a very bad way? Most of all, as media does not really cover what is going on, how bad is it already on grass roots level that you see through your profession? How do you cope with all of that yourself?

Why not just get a room in PM mode, where what is discussed between consenting adults need not be concerned with overstepping the intended focus of the forum?

[SanteriSatama]

It's a terrible situation overall. Moratoriums are still in place and some jurisdictions are heeding it while others, like you pointed out, are challenging them and winning. My personal legal opinion is that it is clearly unconstitutional for a whole host of reasons. But on the economic side, which really impacts my practice, it is very much like choosing to ignore a deeply-ingrained neurosis rather than shed light on it through introspection. Full disclosure, it hurts my bottom line because it makes people think those debt-complexes are not a problem and they can ride out whatever financial struggles they are having without changing a thing, and/or that the federal government will leave the faucet running indefinitely.

But deep down we all know neither of those things will happen, and regardless of how badly it affects my practice in the short-term, I know it will be even worse for my would-be clients. None of that debt is being forgiven, no Leviticus-style jubilees. And even if there was any will to do such a thing, it would completely devastate the property owners and commercial landlords. It's only rolling the snowball further down the hill, as has become the American tradition for just about everything now. The market incentives and pricing mechanisms are all out of whack, like split-brain patients whose left brain is inventing BS stories to explain what the right brain did but couldn't communicate.

So, yeah, it's bad. It's especially bad when the most efficient defusing mechanism, the federal bankruptcy system, is circumvented by politicians who just want people to remember they were the ones who handed out "free" money when the next election cycle rolls around. Yet that money is anything but free. It's simply another form of debt slavery, where the people being enslaved don't even know it. I have never seen the cognitive dissonance among my clients so high, where they are living rent- or mortgage-free but still feeling stressed out to the max and can't understand why. The chickens will come home to roost for sure, but how that plays out exactly... your guess is as good as mine.

Thanks for sharing. Wishing for some nice surprises that would prevent at least worst dystopian imaginations, and bring some sustainable balance to the whole situation. The thought, said by many, that we chose to be born into these interesting times, can be a source of comfort and strength.

[Lou Gold]

I took notice that Oren Lyons uses term 'equity' instead of 'equality' when describing the Great Law of Peace. I think he chose the English term very carefully, and I'm also curious about the more detailed philosophy behind the choice. What might be the native term that is translated as 'equity', and its meaning?

My take is the common sensibility among indigenous peoples that a social structure of great extremes of wealth or privilege would be 'inequitable' or 'unjust'. It's not an argument for 'sameness' but rather that social membership places equal value on all individuals by appreciating and offering respect for the diversity of their skills. Merit or individual skill differentiation is still recognized but in a more collectively responsible fashion wherein a chief is fashioned to be more of a helper than a lord. I think the political difficulty occurs when the quest for equity in a pluralist society involves correcting for historical traumatic imbalances. Reparations and affirmative action raise thorny issues.