Jordan Peterson with Bret Weinstein - A Metaphysical Delight

[SanteriSatama]

You appear to be suggesting that Christ wanted the Jews to wake up and realize they had been doing it all wrong with their cruel animal sacrifices, and that is the position I reject. Is that accurate?

No. First of all, the practice was widespread to nearly all religious cults, by no means limited to Jews. Second, I'm suggesting that gods/elohim and what not spiritual powers by any word you want, were no more pleased with the attention grabbing and pleading practice of animal sacrifice, they were fed up with all the unnecessary suffering of sentient beings and ordained and organized what Badiou calls "Event", to spread the new spiritual truth in the social sphere, based on the goal oriented principle of whatever works.

Maybe gods did that at least partly affected by imbecillic (by Athenians) and noble - on part of Socrates - sacrifice of the latter, which gave the effective birth to the philosophical revolution that started about half a millennia before the zeitgeist in question. The case of Socrates is historically well documented, and in many ways the stories around Christ imitate the case of Socrates. Jews had been part of Hellenistic world for a long time. It was a good story already known to work well, in the spirit of what ever works.

Situation with renewal of animal sacrifice and torture by modern scientism is very different. It is not founded on any spiritual pact, it's purely atheistic as well as anti-philosophical, as it denies also gnothi seauton, the foundation Socratic philosophy, as well as Buddhist science of meditation, etc. etc., because the thick empathy barriers and blind unawareness of scientism would not be sustainable with a modicum of self-awareness.

Forgive them for they are not aware.

[AshvinP]

You appear to be suggesting that Christ wanted the Jews to wake up and realize they had been doing it all wrong with their cruel animal sacrifices, and that is the position I reject. Is that accurate?

No. First of all, the practice was widespread to nearly all religious cults, by no means limited to Jews. Second, I'm suggesting that gods/elohim and what not spiritual powers by any word you want, were no more pleased with the attention grabbing and pleading practice of animal sacrifice, they were fed up with all the unnecessary suffering of sentient beings and ordained and organized what Badiou calls "Event", to spread the new spiritual truth in the social sphere, based on the goal oriented principle of whatever works.

Maybe gods did that at least partly affected by imbecillic (by Athenians) and noble - on part of Socrates - sacrifice of the latter, which gave the effective birth to the philosophical revolution that started about half a millennia before the zeitgeist in question. The case of Socrates is historically well documented, and in many ways the stories around Christ imitate the case of Socrates. Jews had been part of Hellenistic world for a long time. It was a good story already known to work well, in the spirit of what ever works.

Situation with renewal of animal sacrifice and torture by modern scientism is very different. It is not founded on any spiritual pact, it's purely atheistic as well as anti-philosophical, as it denies also gnothi seauton, the foundation Socratic philosophy, as well as Buddhist science of meditation, etc. etc., because the thick empathy barriers and blind unawareness of scientism would not be sustainable with a modicum of self-awareness.

Forgive them for they are not aware.

I agree there is deep continuity between pre-Socratics, to Socrates-Plato-Aristotle, to Christ. And I agree the sacrifice of living beings as offerings to God(s) was no longer necessary after Christ in the spiritual domain. But what I don't understand is whether you are also criticizing the spiritual utility of animal sacrifice prior to Christ? I view the transition as primarily a metaphysical one, the evolution of collective subconscious (synonymous with God), not necessarily an ethical one where gods and their people figured out what they were doing is cruel and unnecessary.

As for animal testing for science, I simply do not see how we could have gained the scientific insights we have into human nature, illness, pathology, etc. without such testing. Ideally we will soon come upon a time where it is no longer needed, but that time does not appear to be now.

[SanteriSatama]

But what I don't understand is whether you are also criticizing the spiritual utility of animal sacrifice prior to Christ? I view the transition as primarily a metaphysical one, the evolution of collective subconscious (synonymous with God), not necessarily an ethical one where gods and their people figured out what they were doing is cruel and unnecessary.

I think the custom was originally domesticated reinterpretation of spiritual aspects of animistic hunting cultures, and gradually became increasing banal and alienated.

[AshvinP]

But what I don't understand is whether you are also criticizing the spiritual utility of animal sacrifice prior to Christ? I view the transition as primarily a metaphysical one, the evolution of collective subconscious (synonymous with God), not necessarily an ethical one where gods and their people figured out what they were doing is cruel and unnecessary.

I think the custom was originally domesticated reinterpretation of spiritual aspects of animistic hunting cultures, and gradually became increasing banal and alienated.

Agreed, as long as we acknowledge the animistic hunting cultures were, in essence, hunting the archetypal beings of the objective psyche; collective unconscious/subconscious. Ancient offerings made to God are fundamentally no different than modern humans sacrificing their energy in physical labor with the expectation, indeed faith, that the 'future', as instantiated in various sociocultural institutions with deep continuity, will reward them for doing so. That is the essence of the 'delayed gratification' Peterson-Weinstein were discussing; that which continues to propel us into dark, unknown territories so that we may expose them to light an incorporate them into our maps. We are now simply more focused on exploring the 'inward' territories along with the 'outward' ones.

[SanteriSatama]

Agreed, as long as we acknowledge the animistic hunting cultures were, in essence, hunting the archetypal beings of the objective psyche; collective unconscious/subconscious.

I don't know what "hunting archetypal beings" means, could you explain? More correct term would be 'plea-cultures' than 'hunting-cultures'. at least in our language the prey was pleaded both linguistically an spiritually, and received as a gift. Words for hunting with connotations of chasing etc. are later strata, pleading is the most ancient term. The gift giver, the guardian/master spirit of the prey species or other nature spirit/deity, could perhaps be interpreted also as an archetypal being.

Atonement of the violence involved in taking the life given, and continuation of ecological-spiritual balance requires reciprocal gift giving. The distinction between gift and sacrifice is thus a matter of perspective, and perhaps it's those perspectives that would require much more discussion and clarity.

[Ben Iscatus]

At the 1hr 58 min or thereabouts of the video, JP and BW question why there is an attack on competency in our society (in education and the workplace), but they don't seem to be able to come up with an answer. Surely, the answer is obvious. Inequality by sexism and racism is still endemic, and despite BW's claim that it's been solved, efforts to address inequality have simply not gone far enough. The Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements have increased the general desire and impetus to root out inequality based on race and sex, and there is an unstated, even subconscious, recognition (or it might be better to say, a cultural imperative) that those benefiting from the current system and all bastions of privilege must have the ground beneath them radically undercut because only then, at a new, lower level, can a true meritocracy be built. Change is in the air. A new zeitgeist is being created. In their bubbles, it appears that JP and BW just can't see it.

[AshvinP]

Agreed, as long as we acknowledge the animistic hunting cultures were, in essence, hunting the archetypal beings of the objective psyche; collective unconscious/subconscious.

I don't know what "hunting archetypal beings" means, could you explain? More correct term would be 'plea-cultures' than 'hunting-cultures'. at least in our language the prey was pleaded both linguistically an spiritually, and received as a gift. Words for hunting with connotations of chasing etc. are later strata, pleading is the most ancient term. The gift giver, the guardian/master spirit of the prey species or other nature spirit/deity, could perhaps be interpreted also as an archetypal being.

Atonement of the violence involved in taking the life given, and continuation of ecological-spiritual balance requires reciprocal gift giving. The distinction between gift and sacrifice is thus a matter of perspective, and perhaps it's those perspectives that would require much more discussion and clarity.

We can take it as the archaic equivalent of what we now call "introspection", "shadow work", etc. That is a crude and low resolution comparison, but it is sufficient for our purposes here. It is consciousness exploring unknown territory to know itself deeper. The 'inner' world reveals deep patterns of the 'outer' world and vice versa. I assert the essence of ancient sacrificial practices was revealing the inner world of the collective group souls, whereas now it is much more centered around the individual, but remains the same process in essence.

[AshvinP]

At the 1hr 58 min or thereabouts of the video, JP and BW question why there is an attack on competency in our society (in education and the workplace), but they don't seem to be able to come up with an answer. Surely, the answer is obvious. Inequality by sexism and racism is still endemic, and despite BW's claim that it's been solved, efforts to address inequality have simply not gone far enough. The Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements have increased the general desire and impetus to root out inequality based on race and sex, and there is an unstated, even subconscious, recognition (or it might be better to say, a cultural imperative) that those benefiting from the current system must have the ground beneath them radically undercut because only then, at a new, lower level, can a true meritocracy be built. Change is in the air. A new zeitgeist is being created. In their bubbles, it appears that JP and BW just can't see it.

Well you probably know I strongly disagree with pretty much everything you wrote above, but to avoid political bickering, I will just say that JP and BW did not fail to come up with answer in that discussion. JP was simply steel-manning the alterative points of view. The answer was pretty much the entire first half of the discussion - a deep fear and resistance to the evolution of consciousness and culture in a clear direction, i.e. focus on individual sovereignty and responsibility, and therefore any hierarchies which reward various forms of competence and naturally 'punish' an unwillingness to take responsibility and develop competence. Obviously there is luck and a certain level of corruption, bias, historical injustices, etc. involved, but a) it does absolutely no good to simply complain about that., indeed it is counter-productive; and b) that cannot exhaustively explain the existence of these hierarchies. It is a horrendous nightmare to wage a war on competence by equating personal talent/ambition with complicity in systemic oppression, but that is the path of least resistance in Western societies right now, so it is no wonder people take it.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Suffice to say there's a huge debate that could be had here about BLM and MeToo movements, and whether or not it's making a positive or negative difference in the collective ethos, or some combination thereof ~ a debate that is unlikely to be resolved here, any more than it has been resolved in the culture at large. So unless the focus can be significantly shifted to how a given metaphysical premise has implications with respect to racism and sexism, please take any solely politicized argument into PM mode.

[SanteriSatama]

At the 1hr 58 min or thereabouts of the video, JP and BW question why there is an attack on competency in our society (in education and the workplace), but they don't seem to be able to come up with an answer. Surely, the answer is obvious. Inequality by sexism and racism is still endemic, and despite BW's claim that it's been solved, efforts to address inequality have simply not gone far enough. The Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements have increased the general desire and impetus to root out inequality based on race and sex, and there is an unstated, even subconscious, recognition (or it might be better to say, a cultural imperative) that those benefiting from the current system and all bastions of privilege must have the ground beneath them radically undercut because only then, at a new, lower level, can a true meritocracy be built. Change is in the air. A new zeitgeist is being created. In their bubbles, it appears that JP and BW just can't see it.

What I can say is that the whole discussion is conceptual mess on all sides, originating with identifying equality with quantification. To offer a way out from the mess, how about these for consensus building:

Equity combined with complementarity of our unique characters and contributions.

I don't think JP and BW are out of tune with the zeitgeist, on the contrary. I think they play the role of sincere conservative caution in the zeitgeist, which is a natural and necessary part of the dialectic of new consensus building, and also the conservative caution has been progressing pretty far compared to not so long ago, and the process continues...

This might go dangerously close to political stuff, but the dark side of identity politics is that its being very consciously used by the ruling class to divide and prevent class consciousness and cooperative solidarity and mutual aid at the bottom, among the caring classes. On the other hand Covid crisis has made it much more clear what really is essential work which should be rewarded by the society at large. It's not what bankers etc. most of the bureaucratic class do, or pretend to do...